Was (Darth) Revan Evil?

[dufflover]

(*) this option is the same "severity" as the above Sidious one but is a way of showing that the K2 stuff about preparing the galaxy for the True Sith and stuff. I call it the "Go play Tie Fighter" option....

 

This is a thread sorta spawned from (Poll) Was Kreia Evil thread. Hopefully this is just as straight forward " .

 

For me, I say evil DS because he was just the exact profile of a power hungry Sith Lord. I was quite content with the original reasons of Revan being corrupted by the promosing power of the DS Star Forge, and either going to war as an excuse to find it, or because of his LS stuff on Taris, became a bit power hungry during the war and discovered the Star Forge or traces of it.

Obviously there are few gaps now with K2, but I also noticed a few weird things like they make the point that he left military buildings intact, which I actually just associate with (good management of maintaining conquered systems), and then saying the True Sith will not be a conventional battle .

 

Either way, I also just think it's un-Star Wars (not necessarily a disgrace to it) to have a Sith lord who isn't a Sith Lord. Like I've said before, go play some Tie Figher , and "help the Emperor restore piece and order throughout the galaxy!"

[Weaponmaster303]

I always saw revan as a ls who sought power out quick to put down any danger to the galaxy.These polls about revan though are alot harder than those with kreia. Revan having so many paths jus overcomplicates this.When we talk about sidious type of sith lord I immediatly think kreia lol.I just cant see revan ds for some reason.

 

Edit:Also another idea i got about why I dont believe revan could be completely ds.Well in the star wars books sidious cant really control his ds powers right so he has to keep cloning a body and moving over and we also notice that sith usually go physical changes when they completely embrace the ds which are hard to over turn but revan though without his memory looks like he has suffered no body damage and no mutations.

[11XHooah]

I always saw revan as a ls who sought power out quick to put down any danger to the galaxy.These polls about revan though are alot harder than those with kreia. Revan having so many paths jus overcomplicates this.When we talk about sidious type of sith lord I immediatly think kreia lol.I just cant see revan ds for some reason.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I agree. I think that Revan was impatient, so he sought the quick and easy path. This of course, as we know from Yoda, leads to the dark side. I don't think that he fell until he and Malak discovered the Star Forge. The darkness that emanated from it must have corrupted them, thus turning them into Sith. But that's just my crazy theory

 

Anyway, whoo hoo, 200th post! (w00t) Do I get a prize?

[Weaponmaster303]

Its not only that but when revan takes off his or her mask in that cutscene he has no mutations on his face.Remember even anakin went through a change when his eyes went all yellow.

[darknesslord]

well if your lightside in your game, when he takes his mask off, you see that he's darkside. but seriously, as ls, he woulnt have corrupted all these jedis and all

[Marka Ragnos]

actually, he does have the corrupted dark side look with the vains popping out and stuff.

[Weaponmaster303]

So does he look diff when youre really dark and he takes off the mask in the cutscene ive only played lightside and he never has any mutation in that revelation cutscene.

[darthsidious666]

I think he's Evil Smart DS, but not really as intelligiant as Darth Sidious, he may have been good at war tactics, and other related skills, but Darth Sidious managed to take over the republic, without having to declare a real war against them.

 

But I think Revan falls more into that catagory then Very Evil DS, or LS and such.

[Ioini]

I think he sacrificed himself to the DS to protect others, to prepare himself and others for the True Sith invasion. I would too if a big evil force was coming my way.

[Marka Ragnos]

So does he look diff when youre really dark and he takes off the mask in the cutscene ive only played lightside and he never has any mutation in that revelation cutscene.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

he should look mutated when you're both ls and ds. for me he always looks corrupted.

[Calax]

yes well so did Ulic Qel-Droma and everybody considers him to be pure evil.

[SteveThaiBinh]

Revan was evil. The only question is exactly when he fell. Was it before he left for the Mandalorian War, or sometime during it? I'd suspect the latter, but I can't remember all the details offhand.

[EnderAndrew]

Revan tolerated Malak beneath him, so I'm guessing he was similiar to Malak.

[dufflover]

Revan was evil.  The only question is exactly when he fell.  Was it before he left for the Mandalorian War, or sometime during it?  I'd suspect the latter, but I can't remember all the details offhand.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well the possibilities that come to mind are:

1. He discovered the Star Forge ruins and being tempted with power, he went off to fight the Mandalarions as an excuse to go look. The two main problems with this is that Juhani portrays him as still being LS when he first goes to Taris, plus he's wearing the DS outfit in the Dantooine cutscene. I suppose he could've been a double-life sorta person like Sidious with the whole Jedi rouse but that doesn't seem likely.

2. As a said in the original, he goes off to war to protect the innocent, and slowly becomes more obsessed with power and eventually learns of the Star Forge and goes off looking for it.

 

Regardless, it's nice to know you think he's a good ol Sith.

 

 

I think he sacrificed himself to the DS to protect others, to prepare himself and others for the True Sith invasion. I would too if a big evil force was coming my way.

The only way I can agree with it is if he was as stupid as Anakin and thought that going DS would be for the greater for the good. He may have been trying to play hero, being strong willed and all, but the only problem with this is that he is marketed as being very noble to do it - which just doesn't seem to match with stupidity and arrogance.

[EnderAndrew]

It's possible he felt the Jedi were weak for holding themselves back, and that wasn't a luxury he could afford given his new knowledge of the True Sith as a threat.

[Lord Tingeling]

Revan tolerated Malak beneath him, so I'm guessing he was similiar to Malak.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Malak was an angry idiot. Revan wasn't. They're not similar at all, really. At least, if official K2 canon is to be trusted.

 

 

And when one tries to ascertain wheter Revan was/is/will be "evil" or not, it's rather good to actually try to see the picture for what it is. Revan fell to the darkside at a certain point, true. Kreia later says that few know the difference between a sacrifice and a fall, and so on it goes.

 

The discussion becomes one of motivation rather than action, it seems.

 

Here's a few things to think about:

 

1) Revan did leave important infrastructure (not only factories and such, but infrastructure vital to the republic) behind. Malak didn't in favour of destroying entire planets at a whim.

 

2) Take the star forge: Revan only saw it as a (temporary) factory. Malak didn't agree with his master, on both counts. Anyone who's played K1 should know this.

 

Ever entertained the notion of that the coming war or whatever Revan saw might not be won with a stagnant rebublic? That normal rules of engagement need not apply, since applying them would only doom the galaxy(omg!!!) and so on and so forth? Perhaps Revan only did what he did out of necessity, instead of simple conquest (Which was obviously malak's prime motivation) and evilness?

 

At the end of the day it's anybody's guess, true, but all evidence seems to paint a Revan as a hopelessly pragmatic boy/girl, and not much more.

[Grant Dempsey]

Personally, I tend to prefer avoiding really declaring characters to be "good" or "evil" and trying instead to just examine them on more of a case-by-case sort of basis. So, right off the bat, I wouldn't feel very content to just say, "Revan just became evil, that's all," and leave it all at that.

 

That said, no, I didn't think Revan was "just another Sith Lord". I don't really see why anyone would even prefer that over how his character was portrayed through, say, Kreia's dialogue. Why would you just want another Exar Kun? Sure, Revan may have been a departure from the usual "black-and-white" setup in Star Wars (which even the prequel trilogy blurred and greyed anyway), but it was geniunely interesting. To be honest, it wasn't until I'd heard all that dialogue about him throughout Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords that I'd really come to appreciate his character on a truly deep level.

 

In my opinion, what happened to Revan was that he was neither truly a Jedi Knight nor truly a Sith Lord. He was something more -- and simply different -- than either of those affiliations. I believe that his motives and intentions were always, deep down, to defend the galaxy, but that he was a very "the ends justify the means" willing-to-do-whatever-he-saw-as-necessary kind of person. I think he did fall to the Dark Side of the Force in some sense, but I also think he was aware of it, and beyond just in a, "Mwahaha, I'm growing more powerful!" kind of way. I think he let himself fall to the Dark Side of the Force, believing that only by doing so could he acquire the means to strengthen and prepare the galaxy. I do believe he wasn't entirely in control of himself, though. Enough to keep himself from falling completely, certainly, but I'm sure it still changed him on some level, still affected him. Do I believe Revan was a pure follower of the Light Side and the Jedi Order? Of course not. Do I believe Revan was an entirely corrupt being adhering to the Dark Side and completely loyal to the Sith Order, though? Not exactly.

 

Uh...SPOILER ALERT FOR BATMAN BEGINS!!!:

If you'd like a comparison that might make my point a little easier to understand, I suppose one could liken my opinion of Revan's character on some level to how Ra's Al Ghul was portrayed in Batman Begins. Not entirely, but this analogy'd put you on the right track.

 

[edu11]

IMO Revan was evil and smart just like Sidious. He didn't have to prepare a 1000 year old scheme because he was lucky enough to discover Malachor V and the Star Forge.

[Petay]

I think that Revan must have been smart DS, I mean he was a great tactical leader in the mandalorian wars and when he found the Star Forge, he used it to his advantage instead of telling anybody about it, also after he fell DS he cant have lost his tactical abilities that easy.

 

Malak was just plain angry DS who wanted to kill and gain power (although Revan also wanted power).

[kalimeeri]

Personally, I tend to prefer avoiding really declaring characters to be "good" or "evil" and trying instead to just examine them on more of a case-by-case sort of basis. So, right off the bat, I wouldn't feel very content to just say, "Revan just became evil, that's all," and leave it all at that.

 

That said, no, I didn't think Revan was "just another Sith Lord". I don't really see why anyone would even prefer that over how his character was portrayed through, say, Kreia's dialogue. Why would you just want another Exar Kun? Sure, Revan may have been a departure from the usual "black-and-white" setup in Star Wars (which even the prequel trilogy blurred and greyed anyway), but it was geniunely interesting. To be honest, it wasn't until I'd heard all that dialogue about him throughout Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords that I'd really come to appreciate his character on a truly deep level.

 

Many people like to categorize in terms of absolutes; but in real life no such distinction exists. Nobody is pure good or pure evil. Revan emerges as someone who effectively changed the course of history, though his methods and intentions were incomprehensible and misunderstood--sometimes intentionally--by those in power. Most of the Jedi Council perceived him as a threat to their own power structure, and as a consequence so did the Jedi. A young and impulsive person, believing implicitly in his own fate and ability, might say, "You want to see bad? I'll show you bad."

 

I agree, in full, with your assessment; such a character is far more interesting than one that can be easily labeled.

[Nur Ab Sal]

Same blurb as above, could be said about Stalin.

 

[Lord Tingeling]

IMO Revan was evil and smart just like Sidious. He didn't have to prepare a 1000 year old scheme because he was lucky enough to discover Malachor V and the Star Forge.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Uh... "lucky enough" to discover Malachor V? What in the 666 layers of the abyss is that supposed to mean?

[dufflover]

IMO Revan was evil and smart just like Sidious. He didn't have to prepare a 1000 year old scheme because he was lucky enough to discover Malachor V and the Star Forge.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Uh... "lucky enough" to discover Malachor V? What in the 666 layers of the abyss is that supposed to mean?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Maybe it was supposed to be Rakata and Star Forge.

[SteveThaiBinh]

I honestly cannot see how Revan's actions made the galaxy - Republic and  Sith - better able to resist an external threat.  He drove the two factions into all-out war, leaving both devastated with much of their military gone and the Republic's economy in ruins.  If anything, Revan's actions look more like those of an agent of the True Sith/external threat, fomenting chaos before the invasion begins.  Same goes for Kreia.

Ever heard of... wait for it... Darth Malak?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes, and I'm well aware of who decided to make Darth Malak her apprentice. That was Revan's choice, and if Malak goes insane after her death and starts blowing up the galaxy, Revan bears a fair amount of the responsibility for that. She knew what he was. She put a vicious madman in a position of power where he ordered millions of deaths. Tell me again how good she was.

Put Revan in proper context, for once. At the end of the jedi civil war, the republic was in ruins, true. This was not what Revan intended (again, if official K2 canon is to be trusted)- ask G0-T0 about the change in tactics between the Revan era of the war and the Malak era if you're in doubt.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm sure she didn't want it in ruins - she wanted it united and strong and with her in control. Only a madman like Malak would deliberately seek to destroy the territory he hopes to rule soon. If Revan had truly been concerned with saving the galaxy I don't believe she would have chosen the path she did. She wanted to save the galaxy from the True Sith so that she could have power for herself. That's evil.

 

As I said, I'm willing to concede that we can't know this for sure, until we know exactly who and what the True Sith threat is. But if they're any kind of conventional military or Sith-like threat, then I think Revan's actions just weakened the ability of the galaxy to defend itself.

[Lord Tingeling]

Yes, and I'm well aware of who decided to make Darth Malak her apprentice.  That was Revan's choice, and if Malak goes insane after her death and starts blowing up the galaxy, Revan bears a fair amount of the responsibility for that.  She knew what he was.  She put a vicious madman in a position of power where he order millions of deaths.  Tell me again how good she was.

 

Oh, please. Apart from the fact that I don't find your petty views on good and evil all that useful, what is in contention here is not wheter Revan was nice or bad but wheter or not she weakened the republic knowingly. By using the above reasoning, I could simply say that the ones responsible for building any given nuclear plant as "evil" by just supplying off some nice and warm meltdown as the ulterior motive. Wheter or not Malak got out of control once Revan "died" has to be put into proper context as well- ergo, as in wheter or not Revan planned on "dying" in the first place.

 

Intent is often quite central to moral discourse, after all...

 

I'm sure she didn't want it in ruins - she wanted it united and strong and with her in control.  Only a madman like Malak would deliberately seek to destroy the territory he hopes to rule soon.  If Revan had truly been concerned with saving the galaxy I don't believe she would have chosen the path she did.  She wanted to save the galaxy from the True Sith so that she could have power for herself.  That's evil.

 

To ask a rather rhetorical question: is it?

 

It all depends on what you choose to view as "evil", you know. And even then, what other path were there?

 

Understand that you make this assumption with no knowledge whatsoever of the alternatives presented to her- therefore, the "if she was good she'd have done something else" rhetoric is rather... lacking. What if there wasn't something else to do?

 

And yes, to preempt your possible retort, here, I can safely say that I argue in the matter with little knowledge as well. The difference is of course that I choose not to dispute what seems to be official K2 canon when it comes to these matters. Wheter or not Revan is "evil" in the quiant little sense many people have propagated here is not in contention, and the issue isn't all that useful, either. However, wheter or not she wanted to save the galaxy and wheter or not she *did* save the galaxy is another matter entirely.

 

As I said, I'm willing to concede that we can't know this for sure, until we know exactly who and what the True Sith threat is.  But if they're any kind of conventional military or Sith-like threat, then I think Revan's actions just weakened the ability of the galaxy to defend itself.

 

Obviously. Consider, for a moment, that there would be no republic at all were it not for Revan, due to the quaint little mandalorian incursion. Also, consider that Bastila's apprehension of Revan might not have been a planned event- before you're going to write off Revan's scheme as one of personal conquest with the fate of the galaxy at stake, put it in proper context.