My Problems with Role-Playing and Story-Telling in

[ncr]

I agree with you Darth Suzy. Keep your head up and carry disinfectant at all times. You never know when fanboys might attack.

[mrchallenge]

We should start treat newcomers to the board a litttle better.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

 

Well, how about..

 

 

NO.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Nerd.

[jaguars4ever]

Nerd.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

n00b. )

[ncr]

I'm giving you both a warning. We don't call each other names.

[mrchallenge]

I'm giving you both a warning.  We don't call each other names.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Awww but Mom...he started it! "

 

What R U, Super Nanny or something?

 

Just trying to keep new boarders from being discouraged from posting stuff cause a few ruin it for the rest of us.

[ncr]

I'm giving you both a warning.  We don't call each other names.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Awww but Mom...he started it! "

 

What R U, Super Nanny or something?

 

Just trying to keep new boarders from being discouraged from posting stuff cause a few ruin it for the rest of us.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

:lol:I was immitating Supernanny. You're right. Now if you misbehave again, you'll have to go sit on the naughty chair.

[nightcleaver]

I find this an interesting dilemma. The only problem is that, in allowing more freedom of self-planning, you take out the major factor of roleplaying games that draw most people into their role. Granted, you find yourself more taken in by your own ability to shape your character, but look at it this way - KotOR II provided more options to tell the game who you were, and so the game actually RESPONDED, to some small degree, to an idea shaped by you - as a DM might.

 

Maybe this sort of cRPG isn't for you; or maybe, if you want to enjoy this sort of cRPG, you just need to find other ways to be involved with the game's story. This sort of cRPG is a little bit more like a movie than perhaps some cRPG's you've played in the past - but don't you enjoy movies, even if you can't create any of the players?

 

On to other things:

 

From what he's said, I really wouldn't put it past Jaguar to just fundamentally be a rotten person. There's nothing to do with such people, except punch them in the face, or lock them up... it's just too bad I can't do that here.

 

To attack another persons' very thoughts is a terribly unjust thing, inadvertant or not. Does that mean you can't do it? No. It's just that it's pretty trashy of you to mess with people... because you are irritated with their idea of what could've made the experience of the game better.

 

Suzy's "selfish opinion" may only be a matter of her strongly divergent taste in this matter. Can you judge her for that? Yes. Is it trashy to do so? Yes, very much so.

[metadigital]

OK, this is not a KOTOR2 sucks thread.

It's funny how prefacing a negative critique with a disclaimer comes off as disingenuous.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Ahhmm, do you actually have any opinion as to what I had to say.

 

I was trying, however, badly, to register the level of my dissatisfaction. I did play the game 3/4 of the way through once, and then retsart and complete it. There was much that satisfied me in the game. This puts KOTOR2 ahead of a boat load of games I have played in the last few years. It also makes me eager to see if Obsidian can do better in the future.

 

Nevertheless, there were a couple of things that really dissatisfied me. Did they dissatisy you? Why or why not? Do try to respond in slightly less fanboy way.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

1. These guys were poking fun at your po-faced pretense of neutrality, made all the more endearing by your later vitriolic refusals to enjoy the plot once it was explained to you on the grounds of principle.

 

2.You are completely missing the "design-your-own-backstory" plot building device employed to allow you to make your character. it doesn't matter what the Exile did before the start of the game, anymore than it mattered what Revan's motivations were in K1; the point is you play the character at this point, onward. Whatever dialogue options you choose will take you to an ending.

 

3. For a clever summary of the plot, try reading (<{POST_SNAPBACK}>). Perhaps you should have searched for "end" or "ending".

[Nartwak]

I'm giving you both a warning.

[Bandobras Took]

2.You are completely missing the "design-your-own-backstory" plot building device employed to allow you to make your character. it doesn't matter what the Exile did before the start of the game, anymore than it mattered what Revan's motivations were in K1; the point is you play the character at this point, onward. Whatever dialogue options you choose will take you to an ending.

 

Actually, there is a great deal of difference between KotOR and II.

 

At the point that you find out you were Revan in the first game, you are also told that your memories were modified and you were given a false background. This allowed the player the chance to define their own background, even if such were false. The second part of the game was determined by how your personality responded to the fact that you had been Revan.

 

Also, no vital plot points were concealed within optional conversations with characters. Whether you journeyed alone or explored every option with every character, you knew that Revan and Malak defied the council to fight the Mandalorian Wars, won, and fell to the Dark Side. Carth gave you vital background to set up the story. You had to follow Revan's path in order to find the Star Forge. In other words, story-critical information was included in such a way that you could not avoid finding it.

 

In the second game, however, all the background material (instuction book, opening flying letters, etc.) led me to believe that I was the last of the Jedi. Funnily enough, though, in the first five minutes of the game, I don't have a lightsaber, force powers, or any clue why I have neither. Except there isn't any point at which my memories have been modified. If my character knows all this stuff, why don't I? There is a very distinct and crucial difference between these two forms of storytelling. Suspension of disbelief is maintained in the first game; the revelation that you are Revan comes as a surprise to both you and your character. This is not so in the second game, where it only comes a surprise to you, despite the fact that from a role-playing standpoint, you are your character. The game fails to address the question: why didn't I (as a player) know all this at the start? In all the plot points, I never found any answer to that question. The first game gave you a reason for not knowing your character's background. The second utterly fails to do this.

 

On a related note, the pacing is jumbled in II; you are only forced to find out that the Council exiled you approximately two minutes before you find out that they had ulterior motives. You meet Darth Sion face-to-face in the first five minutes of the game, after which he mysteriously doesn't follow you till Korriban (reason?). In the first game, Malak is after you from the opening scene and stays after you except for that brief period before he finds out Bastila escaped Taris. This gives you greater opportunity to want to defeat the villain. Darth Nihilus would have been a great villain if he had actually had a comprehensible line. As it is, you're even more in the dark about him than you are about your own character, and you defeat him immediately after meeting him. As opposed to that, in the first game, you actually get introduced to Calo Nord and even fight him once before getting to kill him. In other words, the first game allowed you a decent chance to build up a desire to see the villains defeated before letting you defeat them. This is not the case in the second game, either. I defeated Kreia and still had no clue why she was doing anything she was doing -- it must have been buried in one of her conversation threads after I had given up talking to her (there's nothing so engaging in her beliefs that I wanted to stick around for more of it). Ultimately, the lack of finesse with which information is given to you in Sith Lords makes you less eager to seek it out.

 

What should have been done (and what would have simplified things enormously) is to just give you some flashbacks (movies or otherwise) while you're suspended in that tank waiting to wake up. A little scene between you and Bao-Dur at Malachor V would have been sufficient to establish your background without giving too much away. Likewise part one of your trial before the Jedi Council. This would have given you enough of your background to make intelligent conversation choices and actually made the surprises more meaningful when you and your character simultaneously discover things that were unknown -- like, say, the Jedi Master's conversation after your trial.

 

On a related note, you can get all the way to Malachor V without finding out that you personally destroyed the planet and most of the life there by setting up the gravity well. I know. I did it. I never bothered to talk to Bao-Dur, as I can't stand characters that are forced on you through an unnecessary special ability (that's a separate thing, though). They stashed vital background information -- not supplemental background info (like Juhani or HK had in the first game) -- in conversations that you could only get through suffering through dialogues with characters you'd rather avoid.

 

There is also a great deal of difference between a "this game sucks" comment and a "this game could have been better" comment. I think the original falls into the latter category. The basic idea behind KotOR2 was nothing short of phenomenal, and given the production schedule, I applaud them for the job they did. But it is good to politely express frustrations (I personally found the gaining 5 levels while doing nothing but killing mining droids to be a little overdone) with the game -- if for no other reason than someone will usually point out positive aspects of the game that you might have missed.

 

At any rate, I don't think the comments in the original post were in any way inaccurate. Speaking objectively, most of those things are design flaws -- ones that I am sure would have been fixed with a greater amount of time before release. I recently read that Chris Avellone rates finishing Sith Lords in 13 months without a heart attack as his second greatest accomplishment. With all the good things he's done in the past, I'd have to agree.

[metadigital]

You have a different interpretation on how "crucial" plot information is disseminated -- you seem to think it is mandatory to spoon feed the audience. I would counter that there is no harm in taking the K2 route where it is hard to get (thus more valuable when you get it: the reader appreciates it more due to the effort expended to get it). But that's an issue of personal preference.

 

That said, I agree that I had almost no will to explore the different characters' backstories, because the game fell down in the mechanics of play.

 

I thought the reason that the PC was forced to follow the narrative arc was never explained to my satisfaction (which you pointed out), and I also object to the availability of zero choices; no matter what illusory option taken all through the game, the player ends up following the exact same path, whether LS or DS, male or female, whether Revan was LS/DS or m/f, and totally disregarding ALL choices the player makes through the game (viz.: conversation with Atton, resolution of the dilemma on Korriban, conversations with Atris and the Jedi Council, etc etc etcetra). All that useful feedback for customising the games interactivity with the player is totally ignored.

 

Apart from that, I see no objection to any of your posted issues.

[Shibby]

Darth Suzy, you're not alone in your sentiments. KotOR II was a flop.

Bandobras Took, very nice post.

Nartwar and Jaguars4ever, congradulations, you guys are douchebags.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Sir Fink]

Suzy, you nailed it.

 

Unfortunately, most people here complain about the cut content (robot planet, yipee!), poor animations, just lame stuff like that.

 

Sadly, I think there is a whole generation of gamers whose concept of an RPG is Zelda and Final Fantasy. They are used to being held by the hand and led along a story arc by the game's designers. They might get to choose which color lightsaber they use or what type of hairdo their character has, but plot-wise it's like watching a movie. And lots of gamers don't seem to mind that.

 

The core problem with KOTOR2 was you were just watching a movie. Lots of cut scenes -- including stuff your character never should have seen. That kind of "meanwhile, back on the ship..." kind of crap where'd you'd be privy to a private conversation between Atton and Disciple or something.

 

KOTOR2's designers approached the game like a script writer would approach a movie or novel. Even when they offered us choices, they were false choices. The vast majority of conversations in the game, it literally doesn't matter which response you choose. You could pick "I shall gladly save you, oh noble and lovely lass!" or "Die wench... and I'm taking your lunch money too!" and the end result was always the same, i.e. you fight someone or are given a quest. The player felt like they actually were given some freedom, but they really weren't.

 

If KOTOR3 happens, I'd love to see the game start with my character just sitting in the c0ckpit of his ship staring at the nav computer and deciding which of a dozen planets he's going to visit first. And let me take it from there.

[ncr]

So you want no story then?

[Bandobras Took]

You have a different interpretation on how "crucial" plot information is disseminated -- you seem to think it is mandatory to spoon feed the audience. I would counter that there is no harm in taking the K2 route where it is hard to get (thus more valuable when you get it: the reader appreciates it more due to the effort expended to get it). But that's an issue of personal preference.

 

That said, I agree that I had almost no will to explore the different characters' backstories, because the game fell down in the mechanics of play.

 

Not precisely spoon-fed -- again, to take an example from the first game, you only find out you were Revan after a large assault on a Sith Battleship. I felt like I earned the knowledge that way. The point is, I'm not going to look for plot-crucial elements in a place unless I'm given some reasonable indication that they are, in fact, there. Supplemental plot should be saved for the optional quests. HK's owner history in the first game was a fairly good example of this, as was Juhani's story of Revan visiting her home. The story survives easily without those elements.

 

Compare that with the possibility, again, of not even knowing how Malachor was destroyed until you suddenly learn it when you take over Bao-Dur's remote in the last area of the game. Since the destruction of Malachor and its results are essential to understanding not only the main character but all three principle enemies, leaving that kind of information until the end feels a little too abrupt. Instead, about midway through the game, you are spoon-fed, as it were, that Atton is jealous of Disciple's attraction to the main character.

 

The problem with hiding plot elements to make us value them more is that many will not value the story itself unless the events that lend the story significance are made plain. I once played a game of KotOR just so I could repair HK-47 and get his entire owner history. That's something I would not have been at all interested in unless the basic story had drawn me in my first time through.

 

That being said, I would like to again point out that I like the Sith Lords. The idea that someone is a walking rupture in the Force is very intriguing. One could say that the problem is that it's intriguing enough for me to wish it were presented more clearly and skillfully.

[jaguars4ever]

Nartwar and Jaguars4ever, congradulations, you guys are douchebags. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sit down and give your mind a rest, n00b.

[Nartwak]

Nartwar and Jaguars4ever, congradulations, you guys are douchebags. 

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

A few things:

A) You spelled my username wrong.

B) The devil emoticon is shorthand for "I am a ****wit".

C) I'm surprised the board doesn't censor douchebag, but then, it censors p#nis and not ****. <_<

D) Congratulations. There is no "d". Congrads!

E) Sardonic quips are a bit out of your ballpark.

 

 

That being said, I would like to again point out that I like the Sith Lords.

At least you didn't start your post with this twaddle.

[WinterSun]

If people hate K2 so much why do they talk about it constantly?I mean,I thought Icewind Dale was a load of ****e but you don't see me bitching about it.

[EnderAndrew]

Darth Suzy, you're not alone in your sentiments. KotOR II was a flop.

Bandobras Took, very nice post.

Nartwar and Jaguars4ever, congradulations, you guys are douchebags. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's your only post. Wow. You joined just to say that?

[metadigital]

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

A few thing:

...

B) The devil emoticon is shorthand for "I am a ****wit".

...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>