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So uh, why was KOTOR2 rushed?


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I think KOTOR had a better story than NWN, but people also overlook the poor dialogue in KOTOR and the total lack of character development.

I think you've got it the wrong way around. Those character quests were good.

Character quests in KOTOR? Where you got a chemical for Missions brother and heard her throw a temper tantrum?

 

Mission went from a kid pretending to be an adult to a kid trying to be an adult.

 

Carth went from a gruff boyscout to a gruff boyscout.

 

Bastilla went from a snobbish and emotional Jedi to a snobbish and emotional Jedi.

 

Jolee lectured and made no pretense of changing or developing, but the conversations were fun regardless.

 

When did you really go on a quest to develop these characters save from the Wookie?

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And tell me how K2 was any better - Goto and Mandalore were just useless, HK had absolutely no reason to be there (nevertheless he's cool), Atton got all emotional, I don't know how Visas became a Sith in the first place, Bao Dur is pretty empty, and Kreia is just a lunatic - Handmaiden is probably the only decent one where you can see any advancement.

 

Carth and Bastila were ofcourse the romances which did open up some options (and an ability to kill Carth, granted, to no avail) and Jolee's conversations were designed to supplement the Bastila romance.

Some characters like Mission may not have had any character development, but nevertheless you get involved in their problems and the idea is that if you're LS you are a true friend to your party members.

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just look at KOTOR 1: The game's release date was changed like 3 times and they werre developing it for like what, 2 years? And the result was: the best game ever!

 

I think that LucasArts controlled Obsidian a little too much because they are not as popular as BioWare, whereas BioWare probably stated their point that they needed more time and that's it.

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Actually I can make a strong arguement that not a single companion developed in KOTOR.

 

Atton has one of the better character development scenes in the series as his background comes out. You don't know his past when you start off with him, but he definately has more charm and charisma than Carth ever did. As the game progresses, you can influence him to let go of his hatred/fear of Jedi, or you can feed his anger and turn him into a killing machine.

 

Handmaiden goes from a lapdog of Atris to a curious student that you mentor. She doesn't change greatly, but she changes. I haven't played DS, or seen how she shifts, though I did see my wife shift Atton to the DS and it was pretty neat. Again, Handmaiden is a character you can shift however.

 

Visas was a mindless slave of Nihilus that comes to respect you, and would do anything for you out of love if you foster it, or you can keep her repressed as a slave of your own.

 

T3 has more personality in K2.

 

HK was funny in the first game, but has some new material. For one, he's not happy he's being copied. You can also force a pacafist behavior core into him.

 

Bao-Dur seeems pretty quiet, but he carries with him emotional baggage that perhaps only a veteran might appreciate. Again, his development depends on your alignment.

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But all this is just a bi-product of peoples' input from K1 that your Alignment should affect party members. This does make the characters more dynamic but I found doing the simple (and in some ways a nice entertaining story away from the main plot) character side quests very fulfilling.

Anybody seen Star Trek V? I haven't seen it in many many years cos I think it was crap, but anyway, in that there's this guy who goes around telling people "share their pain with him" or something like that. KotOR 2 felt a bit like that - you advanced their characters by talking, and getting into their deep backgrounds, where as in K1, yes, you still dwell into them but the things you did for them were more the sort of things friends do for each other (and these were doable quests, not just convos). I guess that's why I found the Handmaiden one better, because it involved actions. The problem with Influence was that in some cases it was too hard to get (like who would've guessed to take this party member here or there) - maybe that's the source of my bad perceptions.

Hard to tell if the Influence copped some of the comprises to finish on time.

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just look at KOTOR 1: The game's release date was changed like 3 times and they werre developing it for like what,  2 years? And the result was:  the best game ever!

 

The only way anyone could think KOTOR was the best game ever was if they played very few games.

I have to agree with Volourn.  Bioware is pretty much dead now.  Deals like this kills development studios.

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As Ender already said in KOTOR the NPCs are static. Bastilia finds out her fathers lunch, and reconciles with her mother. Yet shes still the same Bastila that you met on Telos those events have no effect on her. Ditto for Carth and all the others.

 

NPCs in KOTOR II change, over time they change quite significantly because of their relationship with you. Just one of the many things that makes KOTORII superior.

 

The only one that is really beyond change is Kreia and that just further reinforces her superiorty to you :D

 

Heres something a lot of people seem to miss. Talk to your second squad leader after they come back from Dxun.

I have to agree with Volourn.  Bioware is pretty much dead now.  Deals like this kills development studios.

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As Ender already said in KOTOR the NPCs are static. Bastilia finds out her fathers lunch, and reconciles with her mother. Yet shes still the same Bastila that you met on Telos those events have no effect on her. Ditto for Carth and all the others.

 

NPCs in KOTOR II change, over time they change quite significantly because of their relationship with you. Just one of the many things that makes KOTORII superior.

 

The only one that is really beyond change is Kreia and that just further reinforces her superiorty to you :D

 

Heres something a lot of people seem to miss. Talk to your second squad leader after they come back from Dxun.

 

In a neat connection to the original topic of the thread, I have to say that this bit too suffered from the game being rushed. I mean, that Freedon Nadd tomb on Dxun actually allowed your makeshift PC to embrace the dark side, but when he or she got back they were still very much in the light if you were playing LS (or in my case Sith Lord with zero Handmaiden influence, another aspect I don't like about the influence system: BE NICE TO EVERYONE...). That whole darkside stuff had zero impact on the character.

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My opinion of KotOR 1 is somewhat different from many views expressed in this thread as I felt that KotOR 1 had NPC character development and interaction often exceeding that of KotOR 2.

 

It may be true that the specific term "influence" wasn't used in KotOR 1. Nevertheless the NPCs in KotOR 1 were clearly influenced by the actions of the main character, and also by the dialog of the main character. That was a great strength in KotOR 1. Carth, Bastilla, Canderous, and HK47 all had capabilities for significant change in opposing directions, light or dark, and independly allowed for various levels of friendship (or romance) with the player character.

 

This isn't to say that KotOR 2 had none of the above. To the contrary, as a male LS player, I found Handmaiden, Visas, and Mira, independently and jointly, to be absolute delights, although I did wish for just a few more development options in each case. Atton and Bao Dur were also great characters, and T3 turned out to be quite a surprise.

 

Kotor 2 in its overall storytelling aspects, lacked IMO the strong and carefully developed, emotional conflict element of KotOR 1. In particular, the "plot" of KotOR 1 delivered a series of emotional highs and lows, culminating in the second half with a situation where the main friendship/romance character (Bastilla in my case), was in great danger of being forever lost to the player character. That is the classic stuff of all great stories and was a great strength of KotOR 1.

 

Kotor 2 in comparison, was less of a novel and more of a game. Action and gameplay, however, are important aspects of both KotOR 1 and 2. KotOR 2 clearly excelled in this aspect and brought to the series a new and higher level of exciting gameplay with brilliant audiovisuals particularly in its battle sequences, which I found to be engrossing and just plain fun.

 

In my view, KotOR 2 would have been significantly better if all of its elements had been fit more carefully with each other, and if the minor missing, broken, and contradictory elements could have been eliminated from the game. Although individually these can be seen as a lack of polish, in the aggregate they tended IMO to underdercut story integrity and the overall player/story interaction. I continue to hold out hope that another patch may solve many of these problems.

 

All in all I would rate KotOR 2 as a good to very good game, which provides many, many hours of enjoyment, exceeding most of what is available to the RPG gamer today. Various uncorrected flaws currently in KotOR 2, do however, collectively detract from the overall positive aspects of the game.

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If you actually think KotOR outshines just "very few games", I find your amount of posts on this board... disturbing.

 

No KOTOR comes way down the list. People tend to give it an easy time for two reasons. First because its a Star Wars game, second because there is bugger all else on the Xbox when it comes to RPGs and PC RPGs have been pretty much non existent too. Dosnt even come close to Biowares earlier RPGs.

 

Yes well i'm sure when you have been around here for as long as I have you will have a fair few posts too.

I have to agree with Volourn.  Bioware is pretty much dead now.  Deals like this kills development studios.

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I don't see what's so great about the influence system. It just forces you to do and say exactly the same things in connection to your NPC every time you play the game. And once you've done that, they have nothing more to say for the rest of the game. I must say I prefer experience to unlock the backstory of a character, and that doesn't need to have anything to do with characters changing or being dynamic. You can have dynamic characters without having to cuddle them everytime you speak to them. For instance if I want to keep a good relation with Kreia and still be a Good Guy, I know that I can't bring her to the Refugee Sector on Nar Shaddaa. Then again if I'm a Bad Guy, there is much temptation in her tagging along to that place for some easy influence points. I say flush that system down where it belongs.

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I don't see what's so great about the influence system. It just forces you to do and say exactly the same things in connection to your NPC every time you play the game. And once you've done that, they have nothing more to say for the rest of the game. I must say I prefer experience to unlock the backstory of a character, and that doesn't need to have anything to do with characters changing or being dynamic. You can have dynamic characters without having to cuddle them everytime you speak to them. For instance if I want to keep a good relation with Kreia and still be a Good Guy, I know that I can't bring her to the Refugee Sector on Nar Shaddaa. Then again if I'm a Bad Guy, there is much temptation in her tagging along to that place for some easy influence points. I say flush that system down where it belongs.

 

No it dosnt , that is your problem not a problem of the influence system.

 

Why not ? Why dont you roleplay your character rather than worrying about maximising influence, you will enjoy the game far more.

I have to agree with Volourn.  Bioware is pretty much dead now.  Deals like this kills development studios.

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No it dosnt , that is your problem not a problem of the influence system.

 

Why not ? Why dont you roleplay your character rather than worrying about maximising influence, you will enjoy the game far more.

 

I do roleplay, and the game becomes shorter since much of the storyline is buried in the dialogue. It also causes large and ugly holes in the plot, which you may indulge if you already know your stuff, but if you're on your first playthrough you're not so impressed. You can't deny that the big trick with gaining influence apart from the odd on-ship conversation is bringing the right NPC (BUT in most or all cases only ONE of the NPCs with influence potential) to the right location and do the magical influence-gaining deed.

 

Besides, please don't become all touchy towards me because of one remark. :thumbsup:

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I had mixed feelings about the influence system in the end.

 

What bothered me most is the fact that character's didn't change according to their karma. Each party member needed at least two behavior templates, one for light side and the other for dark side because without the influence system becomes silly and unintuitive. I'm also not sure if it was wise to make major plot points dependant on your current influnece with certain characters like Kreia. Influence with certain characters should flesh out the story on replays but not confuse the player by hiding important parts of the story. I don't like having to replay a game to get the story because the first run is the one that makes the most impression. Take Torment for instance: While you get most out of the story with a high INT/WIS/CHA character the core plot is still coherent and comprehensible even with a dumb fighter.

 

The influence system is to me without a doubt a step in the right direction which just needs some work and probably more time. I'm curious what Obsidian's plans to do in NwN 2 with it.

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I do roleplay, and the game becomes shorter since much of the storyline is buried in the dialogue. It also causes large and ugly holes in the plot, which you may indulge if you already know your stuff, but if you're on your first playthrough you're not so impressed. You can't deny that the big trick with gaining influence apart from the odd on-ship conversation is bringing the right NPC (BUT in most or all cases only ONE of the NPCs with influence potential) to the right location and do the magical influence-gaining deed.

 

Besides, please don't become all touchy towards me because of one remark. >_<

 

Well your words say otherwise..

 

While additional plays of the game from other perspectives (DS/Female) came at the plot from different directions cant say I had a problem working out what was going on.

 

There are many different places to gain influence. Compared to some other influence systems i've played this one isnt particularly obscure. But for people used to being spoonfed ala NWN/KOTOR probably a bit of a shock to the system.

I have to agree with Volourn.  Bioware is pretty much dead now.  Deals like this kills development studios.

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Well your words say otherwise..

 

Meaning...?

 

While additional plays of the game from other perspectives (DS/Female) came at the plot from different directions cant say I had a problem working out what was going on.

 

There are many different places to gain influence. Compared to some other influence systems i've played this one isnt particularly obscure. But for people used to being spoonfed ala NWN/KOTOR probably a bit of a shock to the system.

 

I haven't played any other RPG with an influence system. In fact, the only RPGs I have really played apart from KotOR 1 and 2 are Baldur's Gate 1 and 2. But with this game there is a hell of a lot of flesh to the story in particularly Kreia's dialogue. What if I completely disagree with Kreia and do the exact opposite to her teachings the whole time? Well, then the game ends up feeling outrageously... unfulfilling.

 

Then I have another point on what I said before about the lure of the dark side in Freedon Nadd's tomb. When I played DS I didn't have any influence with Handmaiden because I thought it natural for my character to treat her harshly. As we all know a Sith Lord's corruption will cause characters with low influence points to go very LS. I did, nevertheless, send Handmaiden as party leader to the tomb and had her "succumb" to the dark side in the final conversation with the Sith Masters. As I got back she was all "How did it go in Iziz? I was so worried!" (well, sort of) and two seconds later she was all bitter "I have nothing more to say to you" again with her LS points going through the ceiling. This is another point to strengthen my sound argument that the influence system is seriously flawed and in need of fixing (or complete removal).

 

I once again wish to stress that just because I found it hard to conceive how a person who dislikes a game so much spends the necessary time to post over 4000 posts on its boards (or rather its sequel's, but they're not THAT different), you don't have to snap at everything I say, m'kay? Let's be friends! >_<

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Meaning...?

 

I haven't played any other RPG with an influence system. In fact, the only RPGs I have really played apart from KotOR 1 and 2 are Baldur's Gate 1 and 2. But with this game there is a hell of a lot of flesh to the story in particularly Kreia's dialogue. What if I completely disagree with Kreia and do the exact opposite to her teachings the whole time? Well, then the game ends up feeling outrageously... unfulfilling.

 

Then I have another point on what I said before about the lure of the dark side in Freedon Nadd's tomb. When I played DS I didn't have any influence with Handmaiden because I thought it natural for my character to treat her harshly. As we all know a Sith Lord's corruption will cause characters with low influence points to go very LS. I did, nevertheless, send Handmaiden as party leader to the tomb and had her "succumb" to the dark side in the final conversation with the Sith Masters. As I got back she was all "How did it go in Iziz? I was so worried!" (well, sort of) and two seconds later she was all bitter "I have nothing more to say to you" again with her LS points going through the ceiling. This is another point to strengthen my sound argument that the influence system is seriously flawed and in need of fixing (or complete removal).

 

I once again wish to stress that just because I found it hard to conceive how a person who dislikes a game so much spends the necessary time to post over 4000 posts on its boards (or rather its sequel's, but they're not THAT different), you don't have to snap at everything I say, m'kay? Let's be friends! >_<

 

You seem to have a "problem" when it comes to missing things.

 

 

The influence system works differently with your character around. Much of it's goofyness is down to the Exile.

 

KOTOR and KOTOR II are very different. While KOTOR II didnt reach it's full potential because of a tight schedule and "other factors" KOTOR didnt have much to begin with, 2d NPCs a paper thin story and a "plot twist" that borded on embaressing in it's obviousness.

 

Also the count isnt specific to the KOTOR boards, if you check the profile I think most of them are in general gaming.

I have to agree with Volourn.  Bioware is pretty much dead now.  Deals like this kills development studios.

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You seem to have a "problem" when it comes to missing things.

 

Dead on. Shouldn't I?

 

The influence system works differently with your character around. Much of it's goofyness is down to the Exile.

 

No, much of its "goofyness" is down to Obsidian trying to create something they didn't have the time to create. I want to remind you that if fixed, the influence system could have potential. As it is, it's flawed.

 

KOTOR and KOTOR II are very different. While KOTOR II didnt reach it's full potential because of a tight schedule and "other factors" KOTOR didnt have much to begin with, 2d NPCs a paper thin story and a "plot twist" that borded on embaressing in it's obviousness.

 

I disagree that KotOR was bad. KotOR had a nice setting and good feel. It lacked the depth of a larger RPG, and I thought it felt too short, but overall it was a good game. KotOR2 was an attempt at squeezing two years worth of work into one year. Bad idea, and it's a shame how it turned out. To me, KotOR1 is the better game, but if KotOR2 had reached full potential it might have been even better. We will never know.

 

Also the count isnt specific to the KOTOR boards, if you check the profile I think most of them are in general gaming.

 

My bad.

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KOTOR borrowed a lot from NwN probably too much in fact.

 

It's probably been said already, but I think KOTOR did it better though. They seemed to flesh it out and it made more sense in KOTOR than in NWN, IMHO.

"Console exclusive is such a harsh word." - Darque

"Console exclusive is two words Darque." - Nartwak (in response to Darque's observation)

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KOTOR and KOTOR II are very different. While KOTOR II didnt reach it's full potential because of a tight schedule and "other factors" KOTOR didnt have much to begin with, 2d NPCs a paper thin story and a "plot twist" that borded on embaressing in it's obviousness.

 

 

1. The "full potential" argument has been said over and over. I don't think that the result would have been as good as most people imagine it.

 

2. I think that main character development is more important than NPC development. I don't know about you but the Exile seemed less developed than the NPCs to me. (I finished the game -in DS- without knowing who cut me off from the Force!!)

 

3. So you didn't like the Revan twist? Don't tell me that Kreia fooled you......

 

EDIT: Not to mention the fact that K2 is the first game that required a fan-made "restoration" project to fill it's plot gaps..... Thank you LA....

 

In my mind K2 will be a reference point to poor game design....

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