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Who is worse at hiding their evil?


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The plots were telegraphed for all but those in the cheap seats of the peanut gallery.

 

Or those who've briefly turned off the meta-meta "the human race only knows how to tell seven or eight stories" filter. It can be fun to be surprised. I admit, though, that the more I know about story structure, the harder it becomes to do it.

It would help if there were more incidental characters and better dialogue (to help bring the characters to life, quickly). GL has a talent for writing the worst dialogue in Hollywood, I think. Including the XXX industry. He really should learn to let go and delegate those things he's no good at to experts who are ... certainly any kindergarten pupil would not have trouble matching his wit, irony and depth of expression ...

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He really should learn to let go and delegate those things he's no good at to experts who are ... certainly any kindergarten pupil would not have trouble matching his wit, irony and depth of expression ...

 

Agreed. I don't know that it's ever possible to shut off the meta-meta filter for GL, since he insists on bashing one--repeatedly--in the face with a mace that's supposed to be foreshadowing. Or possibly dramatic irony. Though I'm not sure he knows what that is. I spent a long time after RotS trying NOT to imagine what it might've been like if the story had been given into the hands of a truly gifted screenwriter. Made me too mad.

 

As far as games go, though, I find it a bit easier to shut off the filter and go along for the ride (Yoshimo in BGII came as a utter shock and shouldn't have, for example).

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I don't consider Kreia evil. When I was playing a darkside game and allowed my more "psychotic" urges to take over, I remember her constantly berating me for acting that way. If she were truly evil she wouldn't have minded. I'd say she's neutral if anything.

(Palpatine wasn't really evil either, he only wanted what was best for the galaxy... :ermm: )

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"There are millions of starwars fans who thought that Palpatine wasn't Sidious because he didn't even passed off remotely to evil. Heck before Ep3 even hardcore fans thought Sidious wasn't Palpatine."

 

There's also billions of stupid people in the world. It's really not too far fetched to think a million or two of them are Star Wars fans.

 

"I think Kreia was much more subtle , especialy when she SCOLDS YOU FOR BEING EVIL!"

 

Not really. She scolds you for being stupid.

9/30 -- NEVER FORGET!

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"There are millions of starwars fans who thought that Palpatine wasn't Sidious because he didn't even passed off remotely to evil. Heck before Ep3 even hardcore fans thought Sidious wasn't Palpatine."

 

There's also billions of stupid people in the world. It's really not too far fetched to think a million or a two of them are Star Wars fans.

 

:blink: classic.

 

I'd say Palpatine was more evil. Because the whole bringing peace and order to the Galaxy was more of a front than his purpose. He got caught before he was ready and was in danger of turning into a crispy critter so not so good at hiding, rather his position made him difficult to remove as a non jedi isnt really going to buy, or even understand the whole dark lord thing.

 

With Kreia on the other hand what you saw was what you got. A lot of things she said made sense and if she was correct there was almost a nobility in her actions. Destroying a god and the world that goes along with it is no mean feat (anyone who's played the ShadowHeart series will understand what I mean). In some ways she reminds me of Albert Simons.

I dont think she ever tried to hide anything from you and she certainly succeeded in fooling everyone else so shes batting 100 there.

I have to agree with Volourn.  Bioware is pretty much dead now.  Deals like this kills development studios.

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I don't consider Kreia evil. When I was playing a darkside game and allowed my more "psychotic" urges to take over, I remember her constantly berating me for acting that way. If she were truly evil she wouldn't have minded.  I'd say she's neutral if anything.

Exactly. She isn't evil, she just has an agenda whose goal is slightly beyond your comprehesion at the beginning of the game. Ultimately, she want people to be "free", whether they care or not and you, the player, is her tool to accomplish that. Thats why she tolerates your excesses, whether they be Dark or Light side. Of course, no matter what you do, you will have failed her in the end (thats what return to Dantooine is about), if you are Dark side, you have become a destroyer of life which is something that must be stopped (like Nihilus) or if you are Light side, you made your choice, not out of a sense of real choice, but because you were afraid. Kreia doesn't need whimps.

“He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice.” - Albert Einstein

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I love Kreia, both the character and the way she is written. I have always been a fan of Palpatine. He quickly became less interesting to me when he turned into the typical cackling villain. Kreia never did that. She also made me question my decisions a few times and I like to play a "goody-goody". Who was better at hiding their evil? Kreia definitely. But she is written better too. The fact that there is still debate about whether or not she is truely evil is a testament to that.

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I say Kreia.

 

I don't care if she said she was a jedi master and was a sith lord at Telos. But she still striked me as generally evil.

 

Plus all of her diolouge was pretty evil.

 

There are millions of starwars fans who thought that Palpatine wasn't Sidious because he didn't even passed off remotely to evil. Heck before Ep3 even hardcore fans thought Sidious wasn't Palpatine.

 

But Kreia after meeting her she just stroke me as evil.

Kreia nags at you if you do good things, but she also does that if you do bad things. Without these cutscenes where she is bullying your companions you do have a hard time figuring out her intentions.

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I can also see many many "lightside" jedis manipulating party members like she does. Well maybe not invading atton's mind so ..brutaly. So long as it proved for a peaceful or overall greater good type of ending to a situation I can see them manipulating like that though.

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I think Kreya is 50% neutral and 50% evil, while palpatine is 100% evil.

Of course it is obvious from EP1 that palpatine and sidious are the same person, simply because of the voice. Yes, it's slightly different, but still......come on.....don't joke with me !!!!!

By the way, does anybody know how the hell palpatine can hide that he is a force user, if the jedi sense other force users????

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In the movie Yoda says they can no longer detect the darkside, although it's never explained why. Just a plot device to get away with him hiding under their noses I expect. What Kreia does is different since they are not even aware that she exists at all.

I have to agree with Volourn.  Bioware is pretty much dead now.  Deals like this kills development studios.

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I think Kreya is 50% neutral and 50% evil, while palpatine is 100% evil.

No, Kreia is just Anti-Force. She hates the Force, because she sees it controlling the universe for its own agenda. The Force isn't good or evil, it is selfish. And it destroys the illusion of free will with its malevolent pre-destination of all things.

 

That is why Kreia wants to destroy the Force. Why she loves the Exile, a Force Sensitive who turned away and survived (in contrast the frightened Jedi Council are not even prepared to contemplate this).

 

Kreia seeks the death of the Force, and she sees an oppotunity in the Exile (the Wound), and the Force Bond between them, to precipitate a cascade overflow and destroy the Force. One presumes that some life would survive such a cataclysm (or else Kreia is truly insane beyond reach).

 

What is not made clear is why Kreia needed to wait until the Jedi Conclave confrontation to precipitate the destruction of the Force ... surely if she were thusly insane and/or obsessed she would have just flown straight to M5 at the first opportunity. :thumbsup:

 

Anyway, don't forget here is a great plot summary: (<{POST_SNAPBACK}>).

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What is not made clear is why Kreia needed to wait until the Jedi Conclave confrontation to precipitate the destruction of the Force ... surely if she were thusly insane and/or obsessed she would have just flown straight to M5 at the first opportunity. :thumbsup:

 

 

The force just happens to be top of her list, but it's not the only thing on it.

I have to agree with Volourn.  Bioware is pretty much dead now.  Deals like this kills development studios.

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I think Kreya is 50% neutral and 50% evil, while palpatine is 100% evil.

No, Kreia is just Anti-Force. She hates the Force, because she sees it controlling the universe for its own agenda. The Force isn't good or evil, it is selfish.

 

I'll grant you that. But killing the force would be considered genocide (w00t)

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In the movie Yoda says they can no longer detect the darkside, although it's never explained why. Just a plot device to get away with him hiding under their noses I expect. What Kreia does is different since they are not even aware that she exists at all.

 

That's incorrect. They say: "Our ability to use the force has diminished", they don't say that they can't detect other force users (either good or evil)

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That's incorrect. They say: "Our ability to use the force has diminished", they don't say that they can't detect other force users (either good or evil)

 

True, but in the context of what they are talking about I think it's pretty clear what the actual meaning is.

I have to agree with Volourn.  Bioware is pretty much dead now.  Deals like this kills development studios.

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Well, even if i didn't watch rotj, i would know Palpatine is evil since both Darth Sidious and Chancellor Palpatine had the same lower face.

 

But Kreia, i saw it coming, if there is a Kotor III, i hope they don't have anyone like her in it, because she ruined the game for me...

 

It would be more better if they did KOTNR. :-

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But killing the force would be considered genocide  (w00t)

That is not made clear in the various ruminations of Atris and Kreia (and the Council members, for that matter) throughout the game.

 

There is definitely a fear that destruction of the Force would destroy all life. But that's about as overt as it gets, we are left to decide whether the Force is in control of destiny, is sentient and provides free will or an illusion of it, whether life needs the Force or if indeed the Force is a parasite to life.

 

Maybe being deaf to the Force would be a good thing, and Kreia was not insane. In fact, that must be it! Kreia IS the One True Prophet!

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True, but in the context of what they are talking about I think it's pretty clear what the actual meaning is.

You could be right, but if palpatine is sooooooooooooo powerfull that he can obscure is presence even from yoda, why is he defeated so easelly by mace and yoda????

Maybe Palpie is strong in decepition but not offence. He is more an assassin than a soldier, to use an analogy. (Although I would say he is a different class altogether, like a "strategist" or "Machiavellian", say.)

 

Even in the games, you have Consulars, Sentinels and Guardians: a Guardian is much better combatant than a Sentinel, and a Consular will wield Force Powers better than a Sentinel. And that's regardless of levels.

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