The Jedi and the love issue

[SteveThaiBinh]

It sounds like the Jedi Council are advocating a "zero-tolerance" policy to Risk Management.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Typical short-sided approach to management relations. It's more likely to drive people to resentment and thus the dark side.

 

Is there a union for Jedi? They really need to complain to the union rep.

[metadigital]

It sounds like the Jedi Council are advocating a "zero-tolerance" policy to Risk Management.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Typical short-sided approach to management relations. It's more likely to drive people to resentment and thus the dark side.

 

Is there a union for Jedi? They really need to complain to the union rep.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think the problem is the Jedi is the Union.

 

Unless the Jedi Council is a seperate legal entity; an organisation outside the Jedi Union (hand in your membership card when you get the call) and acting as its employer. (Sort of like the convoluted BBC board ...) :D

[edu11]

The Jedi are right. They cannot rely on the fact that their apprentices will control their urges. The risk is too great.

It doen't matter if the emotion is "good" (love) or "bad" (passion). If you feel, you have a weakness that can be used against you at any time. Just look at Anakin and Padme. Padme was the cause of Anakin's demise.

[Cloris]

The Jedi are right. They cannot rely on the fact that their apprentices will control their urges. The risk is too great.

It doen't matter if the emotion is "good" (love) or "bad" (passion). If you feel, you have a weakness that can be used against you at any time. Just look at Anakin and Padme. Padme was the cause of Anakin's demise.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Woah, I disagree -- Padme was not the cause for Anakin's fall, and that is a very sexist thing to say. Anakin and his inablity to control his emotions caused his fall: this is shown in how he behaves with Padme, how he reacts to his mother's death, and in his willingness to follow Paplatine against his own better judgement.

 

I think that it's funny that the strong, powerful, and schooled Jedi are seen as being incapable of handling such a common concept as love. Frankly, it is nothing more than a plot device to me, because it simply does not make sense any other way (and heaven knows that Lucas is fond of his plot hooks, logical or no).

 

Cloris

[edu11]

The Jedi are right. They cannot rely on the fact that their apprentices will control their urges. The risk is too great.

It doen't matter if the emotion is "good" (love) or "bad" (passion). If you feel, you have a weakness that can be used against you at any time. Just look at Anakin and Padme. Padme was the cause of Anakin's demise.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Woah, I disagree -- Padme was not the cause for Anakin's fall, and that is a very sexist thing to say. Anakin and his inablity to control his emotions caused his fall: this is shown in how he behaves with Padme, how he reacts to his mother's death, and in his willingness to follow Paplatine against his own better judgement.

 

I think that it's funny that the strong, powerful, and schooled Jedi are seen as being incapable of handling such a common concept as love. Frankly, it is nothing more than a plot device to me, because it simply does not make sense any other way (and heaven knows that Lucas is fond of his plot hooks, logical or no).

 

Cloris

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

i didn't mean anything sexist. Anakin's and Padme's love for each other brought destruction for both of them. They didn't see it coming because love is a "good" feeling.

 

You have to think as a Jedi Master/Leader and not as a Jedi Padawan. The Jedi Master knows himself and he can control his emotions. The Padawan is untrained. He lacks the ability to recognize the temptations that hinder his Jedi training as well as the will to resist them. So, how can the Padawans be trusted to control their feelings, especially the "good" ones? They cannot! They will fall to the Dark Side. As a Jedi Master you can't allow that to happen.

 

Ignoring love is a small part of the Jedi philosophy. The Jedi avoid any emotion: common or unique, "good" or "bad". It is a strategy that helps logic prevail over emotion. I like it.

[Cloris]

But they don't avoid all emotion -- they seem to be pretty big on apprehension, righteous indignation, and arrogance. All the while they say that emotions lead to the dark side -- I guess they would know. I have to say that I'm with Atton on this one.

 

Cloris

[Ioini]

Male Revan is a very good example of how love can not be dangerous for jedi. Unlike Anakin who had a young and open mind.

 

The jedi who don't want to love are the ones that are arrogant. If they keep trying to bottle up their emotions then sooner or later their emotions would be to hard to control anymore and that would result in their fall to the dark side.

[SteveThaiBinh]

Male Revan is a very good example of how love can not be dangerous for jedi. Unlike Anakin who had a young and open mind.

 

The jedi who don't want to love are the ones that are arrogant. If they keep trying to bottle up their emotions then sooner or later their emotions would be to hard to control anymore and that would result in their fall to the dark side.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sounds about right. Thinking of our favourite poster-boy for Jedi arrogance, I wonder who Vrook's lost love was. He really needs to get in touch with his emotions.

[hawk]

Male Revan is a very good example of how love can not be dangerous for jedi. Unlike Anakin who had a young and open mind.

 

The jedi who don't want to love are the ones that are arrogant. If they keep trying to bottle up their emotions then sooner or later their emotions would be to hard to control anymore and that would result in their fall to the dark side.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Which is how Atris fell to the DS.

[Hildegard]

Padme was the cause of Anakin's demise.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Disagree......here's the link of the scene anatomy of ep2 by George H. Sirois where he explains very well the reasons of Anakin's feelings towards Padme:

 

http://www.411mania.com/movies/columns/art...columns_id=3883

 

 

P.S. Thanks Volourn for the link.....

[Cloris]

Here's something from Kreia about the Jedi and love...

 

(I found it by nosing around in the files, I've never been able to trigger it.)

 

I thought this was very appropriate to this discussion.

 

Cloris

KreiaNotToLove.wav

[jedipodo]

Padme was the cause of Anakin's demise.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Disagree......here's the link of the scene anatomy of ep2 by George H. Sirois where he explains very well the reasons of Anakin's feelings towards Padme:

 

http://www.411mania.com/movies/columns/art...columns_id=3883

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

There are several reasons for Anakin's fall but Padme's well-being is definitely the main motive. You don't have seen Ep3 yet, don't you?

 

p.s. Who is this George H. Sirois and what importance does his personal opinion have to disprove edu11's statement?

[jedipodo]

Here's something from Kreia about the Jedi and love...

 

(I found it by nosing around in the files, I've never been able to trigger it.)

 

I thought this was very appropriate to this discussion.

 

Cloris

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You're right, a Sith Lord's opinion is always very appropriate to a discussion about the Jedi.

 

Wait a moment, I'll try to find a quote from Palpatine about the Jedi and love...

 

*goes to the bookshelf*

[Cloris]

You're right, a Sith Lord's opinion is always very appropriate to a discussion about the Jedi.   

 

Wait a moment, I'll try to find a quote from Palpatine about the Jedi and love...

 

*goes to the bookshelf*

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Touche, but she's an ex-Sith Lord, much the same as she's an ex-Jedi.

 

Cloris

[Archmonarch]

...but she's an ex-Sith Lord...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Not by choice...

[metadigital]

Here's something from Kreia about the Jedi and love...

 

(I found it by nosing around in the files, I've never been able to trigger it.)

 

I thought this was very appropriate to this discussion.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Kreia makes a good point: love (more than anything in our universe, and arguably just as much as -- if not identical to -- The Force) is life.

 

Life as in the verdant growth of Spring, the young growing f

[jedipodo]

Here's something from Kreia about the Jedi and love...

 

(I found it by nosing around in the files, I've never been able to trigger it.)

 

I thought this was very appropriate to this discussion.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Kreia makes a good point: love (more than anything in our universe, and arguably just as much as -- if not identical to -- The Force) is life.

 

Life as in the verdant growth of Spring, the young growing f

[Cloris]

I don't want to start a religious war, but "more than anything in our universe"?

I wouldn't go that far. From our POV this may be true, but the other lifeforms, including the most successful and best spawning species, if not the nature itself, don't know what "love" is. And in the SW universe I think that the Force - unlike the Force sensitive beings - is emotion-neutral in its very nature.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

We assume that other species don't feel love, hate, or other emotions; but I think we have to acknowledge that it is an assumption. Dolphins seek revenge, and are the only other species besides us that will fornicate for pleasure rather than solely for reproduction. I know my dog feels, as crazy as it sounds... She reacts badly when there's argument, she's content when she recieves affection, and she guards our children as if they were her puppies.

 

Anyway, I would say that the Force is neutral in terms of emotion because it encompasses all emotion; rather than a phenomena devoid of emotion, which is what I think you are saying -- do I have that correctly?

 

Cloris

[metadigital]

I don't want to start a religious war, but "more than anything in our universe"?

I wouldn't go that far. From our POV this may be true, but the other lifeforms, including the most successful and best spawning species, if not the nature itself, don't know what "love" is. And in the SW universe I think that the Force - unlike the Force sensitive beings - is emotion-neutral in its very nature.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ah, you've been brushing up on your Hobbesian philosophy, I see.

 

True, I was referring to the human world, and our struggle to make life fair. Is the Force emotion-neutral? That's fair game for debate ... I maintain that Kreia was right and the Force is a malevolent agent acting in its own interest (probably towards some sort of self-actualization), which neatly prophesizes the next major cataclism between the Force Sensitives and the Anti-Force forces ...

[jedipodo]

I don't want to start a religious war, but "more than anything in our universe"?

I wouldn't go that far. From our POV this may be true, but the other lifeforms, including the most successful and best spawning species, if not the nature itself, don't know what "love" is. And in the SW universe I think that the Force - unlike the Force sensitive beings - is emotion-neutral in its very nature.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

We assume that other species don't feel love, hate, or other emotions; but I think we have to acknowledge that it is an assumption. Dolphins seek revenge, and are the only other species besides us that will fornicate for pleasure rather than solely for reproduction. I know my dog feels, as crazy as it sounds... She reacts badly when there's argument, she's content when she recieves affection, and she guards our children as if they were her puppies.

Yes, indeed, some mammals... but they are, in fact, only a tiny group of lifeforms. I was looking at it more universally (like metadigital).

Our nature is well known for the rule "eat or be eaten" and that has nothing to do with our understanding of "love". And the relationship between the mother animal and her child is mostly extremely cruel or impassive at least. Often the offspring is chased away and attacked whenever they meet again. Social behaviour of animals is very diverse, but THE human "love" can't be found there. Thus my point: Why should it be a pre-condition for "life"?

 

Anyway, I would say that the Force is neutral in terms of emotion because it encompasses all emotion; rather than a phenomena devoid of emotion, which is what I think you are saying -- do I have that correctly?

I really don't know - both could be true. From what is told in some novels even the Jedi don't have a clue about the phenomena.

[metadigital]

... And the relationship between the mother animal and her child is mostly extremely cruel or impassive at least. Often the offspring is chased away and attacked whenever they meet again. Social behaviour of animals is very diverse, but THE human "love" can't be found there. Thus my point: Why should it be a pre-condition for "life"?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I was more seeking to make Love the embodiment of life, not a pre-condition. Sort of like the Force, life can live without, but to truly reach its potential life needs love.

 

(Also, there is a species of spider that, when the eggs hatch into hundreds of little, tiny spiders, the mother spider performs a procedure to make her their first meal. Maybe the incy wincy spider has love for her little babies ... . :D .. okay, more likely the love thing is a higher brain function (frontal cortex) interpretation of this sort of sacrifice.)

Anyway, I would say that the Force is neutral in terms of emotion because it encompasses all emotion; rather than a phenomena devoid of emotion, which is what I think you are saying -- do I have that correctly?

I really don't know - both could be true. From what is told in some novels even the Jedi don't have a clue about the phenomena.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's just a cop out: what do you think the Force is? :cool:

[jedipodo]

Ah, you've been brushing up on your Hobbesian philosophy, I see. 

Wow, it's amazing to learn that all of my opinions actually have a name.

 

Edit:

Anyway, I would say that the Force is neutral in terms of emotion because it encompasses all emotion; rather than a phenomena devoid of emotion, which is what I think you are saying -- do I have that correctly?

I really don't know - both could be true. From what is told in some novels even the Jedi don't have a clue about the phenomena.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's just a cop out: what do you think the Force is? :cool:

After thinking for a while: More likely it is a phenomena devoid of emotion.

[metadigital]

Ah, you've been brushing up on your Hobbesian philosophy, I see. 

Wow, it's amazing to learn that all of my opinions actually have a name.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's Thomas Hobbes, the seventeenth century British philosopher who wrote Leviathan, not the stuffed tiger friend of Calvin (but he's pretty cool, too ). :D

[Cloris]

I really don't know - both could be true. From what is told in some novels even the Jedi don't have a clue about the phenomena.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

We could go on and on about whether or not other species can feel emotion, especially from a universalist standpoint, since we know so little about our own planet let alone others... But it would be academic, I suppose, and probably boring to boot.

 

I have not read the novels, so what are you referring to above?

 

Interested,

 

Cloris

 

Edit: Maybe we should define what we mean by love for the purposes of this discussion, what do folks think?

[edu11]

ok I am just saying my opinion here. Read and flame:

 

1. There is NO love! You feel it but it is not real. It is nature's way of saying "i want my DNA copied into a separate human being". Now everyone will say "no, man this is the reproduction instict. Love is something better and "bigger" than reproduction. Love is to care without expecting anything and blah blah blah....". Well this is our intelligence and "civilization" talking. Basically we still have reproduction but (since we like to think that we are civilized) our intelligence takes it, places it in a nice gift box and hands it back to us. The whole package is "love" but inside the box there is still the ancient feeling of reproduction. So basically life needs reproduction at all costs. This feeling changes like a chameleon and can takes the form of "noble" love, wild passion etc

 

2. So life is half reproduction. What is the other half? The other half is survival. This extends from eating food and finding shelter up to self defence. All people (more or less) have a "sixth" sense that warns them when something is wrong.

 

The Force is life itself. It wants to expand (= force sensitive people to increase) and it gives you powers for self defence!