K1 vs K2 thread

[Haitoku]

The graphics for Knights of the old republic is going to have to be upgraded to compete with other games today..

 

Sorry guys but story isn't the most important aspect for games, atleast for the common masses.

 

Story isn't the most important aspect of an RPG you say?

 

That just doesn't seem right. There are a lot of choices for games, some are for visual effects, some for strategy and some for story. To say all is dependent on Graphics is just plain stupid. I don't think anyone goes out and buys games like FFX-2 or Xenosaga for the visuals. If you take a poll of the greatest RPGs of all time, i'm sure you will find that most of the most popular weren't even made in the last decade.

 

Ofcourse the graphic engine for Kotor3 will be redone mostlikely. But i'm pretty sure not a huge number of people would mind if it was done with the old engine.

 

 

 

@Topic -

 

I pretty much got bored with Kotor1 after the first play through, which was LS. It was a fun game , but once was enough for me. I felt the story was too plain, and in the end... I felt that the story had forced me to become someone I didn't want to be. I remember at the end, Master Vandar saying somethinga bout " The redemption of Revan." This felt incredibly cheap... My character wasn't named Revan, and In no way did I consider him the same person.

 

As for Kotor2, I'm on my 3rd playthrough at the moment. That really says it all for me... I usually play RPGs one time through, it takes a very exceptional once to make me play it again. I felt the overall story was better. It was different, which is what I liked the most about it. The voice acting was superb aswell, I can't get enough of those long chats with Kreia or Visas. The scenes and the revelation was awsome too. I remember during Kotor, when Malak finaly appeared on the Levi(whatever the hell it was called) and I remember thinking, "Great, he is finaly gonna tell me i'm revan." Kotor2 was just a plain shock... Even though, there are soo many clues everywhere... I couldn't piece it together. That Scene witht he Jedi Masters towards the end was just plain incredible. I couldn't turn away... That was the same feeling I got when Cecil turned into a Paladin in FF4, or when during the wild ending on Xenogears... I just loved the feelings TSL created.

[Kalfear]

Time wouldn't of made a difference for the main story besides for an ending..

Well they could actually put items where they belong (no random loot generator) and the extra convos.

 

Disagree, I loved the random loot generator because you COULDNT just run to point a, then b then c to get exactly what you wanted. If anything the random loot generater added to the game. Now why they put so much loot on Malachor i'll never know, but not having each character a identical copy of your last character was a great bonus!

 

But you have to argue that the story is isn't the most interesting or strongest.

 

Nope, dont have to argue. KotOR2 story was its strong point IMO. KotOR1 was so linear it did drive me nuts at times, K2 had some surprised to it at least.

 

example: Untill Atton told me his history I DIDNT guess it beyond generics. Kreia keep me entertained through out the whole story. Visas was a great character, as was Handmaiden.

 

Frankly I think the K2 story was stronger then K1 in many aspects. JE has a better story then both of them but JE pulls the hammer on it about 15 hours (of actual game play) to soon.

 

 

Plus in 3 years the Kotor Engine graphics would be seriously outdated. Heck when Xbox 2 comes out in summer-Christmas the graphics for both games would be considered outdated..

 

LOL, where you get 3 years from?

 

Since we all guessing here, I predict KotOR3 releases not this xmas but the following holiday season.

 

The graphics for Knights of the old republic is going to have to be upgraded to compete with other games today..

 

KotOR graphics will be upgraded for the xbox 2 but kotor3 will be a RPG and STORY is always more important then graphics in RPGs.

 

Remember this isnt Halo or some other POS FPS game.

 

 

Sorry guys but story isn't the most important aspect for games, atleast for the common masses.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

LOL, new to the RPG genre are yas! Story is ALWAYS the most important aspect of RPGs. Halo wasnt an RPG so they could get away with having a throw away story. KotOR franchise IS an RPG so story is 80% of the battle!

[jaguars4ever]

K1 & K2 (yes, even in it's half assed state) are two of my favorite games of recent times.

 

However, Jade Empire absolutely *DESTROYS* the KotOR's! :cool:

[Volourn]

"Disagree, I loved the random loot generator"

 

Aye. It was awesome to find armour and light sabres on animals. R00fles!

 

 

"KotOR1 was so linear it did drive me nuts at times, K2 had some surprised to it at least."

 

A. Linearty has nothing to do with surprises.

 

B. Both KOTORs were EXACTLY the same when it came to linearty. 2 linear planets then 4 random planets then the end game. EXACTLY the same.

 

C. KOTOR2 had ZERO surprises outside of the fact i found it surprisingly buggy.

 

 

"Story is ALWAYS the most important aspect of RPGs."

 

No. Story, character interaction, player freedom (not just in where you go but how you get there), and combat are ALL important to RPGs. ALL OF THEM.

 

 

"However, Jade Empire absolutely *DESTROYS* the KotOR's!"

 

Only those who don't know what REAL role-playing, quality writing, and depth isd would think otherwise.

 

 

LONG LIVE JE! DOWN WITH THE KOTOR SERIES!

[Grand_Commander13]

KOTOR 1 has more semblance of a challenge.

 

KOTOR 1's storyline was more cohesive (I agree that Peragus sets a totally different tone than what turns out to be the real story, which sucks because I liked Peragus' tone).

 

(This kinda fits in with what I just said) KOTOR 1 keeps my attention focused on Malak and the Sith, while KOTOR 2 simply lets me forget about the Sith for more than half of the time.

 

All that said, I like KOTOR 2 more. When it all comes down to it, I show up to play a game, not read a story book. KOTOR 2 did have a nice story, though it was told in a confusing way, at times. Also, KOTOR 2's gameplay blows KOTOR 1's out of the water.

[Stargate: 2000]

Time wouldn't of made a difference for the main story besides for an ending..

Well they could actually put items where they belong (no random loot generator) and the extra convos.

 

But you have to argue that the story is isn't the most interesting or strongest.

 

Plus in 3 years the Kotor Engine graphics would be seriously outdated. Heck when Xbox 2 comes out in summer-Christmas the graphics for both games would be considered outdated..

 

Have you seen screenshots of Obivilion for xbox? It's simply beautiful and stunning.

 

 

The graphics for Knights of the old republic is going to have to be upgraded to compete with other games today..

 

Sorry guys but story isn't the most important aspect for games, atleast for the common masses.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

really another year would have been more than enough to finish the polishing of K2. Besides in that year they could have included all the cut content in the game, which would have more than likely improved a lot of people's veiw of K2.

 

Your right the screen shots for Oblivion are great and I would imagine that when K3 is released the graphics will be that good if not better, but too say that story isn't one of the most important parts of an RPG is kind short sighted. I mean without the immense story that comes with a RPG all you would have is a slow paced FPS, needless to say that more than likely wouldn't sell all that well.

[MTJ]

Time wouldn't of made a difference for the main story besides for an ending..

Well they could actually put items where they belong (no random loot generator) and the extra convos.

 

But you have to argue that the story is isn't the most interesting or strongest.

 

Plus in 3 years the Kotor Engine graphics would be seriously outdated. Heck when Xbox 2 comes out in summer-Christmas the graphics for both games would be considered outdated..

 

Have you seen screenshots of Obivilion for xbox? It's simply beautiful and stunning.

 

 

The graphics for Knights of the old republic is going to have to be upgraded to compete with other games today..

 

Sorry guys but story isn't the most important aspect for games, atleast for the common masses.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

really another year would have been more than enough to finish the polishing of K2. Besides in that year they could have included all the cut content in the game, which would have more than likely improved a lot of people's veiw of K2.

 

Your right the screen shots for Oblivion are great and I would imagine that when K3 is released the graphics will be that good if not better, but too say that story isn't one of the most important parts of an RPG is kind short sighted. I mean without the immense story that comes with a RPG all you would have is a slow paced FPS, needless to say that more than likely wouldn't sell all that well.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Story makes the RPG

Graphics make the sales

[Zedicus]

Preferd the K1 Story, both LS and DS left you with a feeling of Acomplishment, K2 just leaves you with a "huh?"

 

in my book, a game can use old Unreal 1 or Final Fantasy 7/8 Graphics but as long as it has a good storyline I'm happy.

[Kalfear]

"Disagree, I loved the random loot generator"

 

Aye. It was awesome to find armour and light sabres on animals. R00fles!

 

Aye, I was very impressed when I got coin and spirit gems for destroying vases and headstones! and lets not forget health power ups from kicking lapdogs in JE!

 

 

 

"Story is ALWAYS the most important aspect of RPGs."

 

No. Story, character interaction, player freedom (not just in where you go but how you get there), and combat are ALL important to RPGs. ALL OF THEM.

 

Wait, are you saying haveing the choice of picking where you go is important?

 

but Im confused, you have no choice in JE, you got from 2 rivers to tiems to imperial city to palace to dirge to palace (with a quick stop at Lord Laos furnace) every time! You cant sway from that route what so ever!

 

So that limits player freedom by your own words doesnt it?

 

*grins*

 

 

"However, Jade Empire absolutely *DESTROYS* the KotOR's!"

 

Maybe, but KotOR2 is still a more mature story!

 

Only those who don't know what REAL role-playing, quality writing, and depth isd would think otherwise.

 

dont worry, we wont hold it against you that your not a REAL roleplayer.

 

at least your not trying to have real conversations with Dawn like Blackfriar is from Bioware boards!

[Barachiel]

Actually I had the game opening day and finished 72 hours later so my opinion was not influenced by things dug up on the Net.

 

The ending was garbage. The friends sitting around watching me play all agreed, "WTF?! Thats it?! What about.... <insert loose end here>?!" That nearly ruined the game for me.

 

That being said, I think much of what was leading up to said ending was absolutely fantastic, and the storytelling mechanics were in some ways sharper than the ones used in the first game. Kotor 2 has the potential to be better than Kotor 1 but its unfinished state with scavenged ending in the end means it fall short just meters of its goal.

 

Fortunately this is what we have the mod community for.

[MTJ]

Actually I had the game opening day and finished 72 hours later so my opinion was not influenced by things dug up on the Net.

 

The ending was garbage.  The friends sitting around watching me play all agreed, "WTF?!  Thats it?!  What about.... <insert loose end here>?!"  That nearly ruined the game for me.

 

That being said, I think much of what was leading up to said ending was absolutely fantastic, and the storytelling mechanics were in some ways sharper than the ones used in the first game.  Kotor 2 has the potential to be better than Kotor 1 but its unfinished state with scavenged ending in the end means it fall short just meters of its goal. 

 

Fortunately this is what we have the mod community for.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

It still had less converstations than K1...

 

K1 was loaded up the ying-yang with missions, K2 barely had any that wasn't tied into the main quest..

 

Beating all the paazak players, not really a mission in my option.

Healing the sick man (more like a converstation)

 

The only missions I can think off is the powercell and finding Loola's wife for Nal Hutta.

 

For Datoonie we had the find the dead salvagers and rescue Joran, kill the Kinraths.

 

For Korriban.. ZIPP.. no missions at all besides going into Ludo Kresh's tomb.

 

Dxun/Onderon Missions were all too easy to complete, though there were some good ones like finding the lost parts, the Onderan scouts and the training circle..

 

While K1 had so many missions and was way larger than the second one it isn't funny.

[MTJ]

"Disagree, I loved the random loot generator"

 

Aye. It was awesome to find armour and light sabres on animals. R00fles!

 

Aye, I was very impressed when I got coin and spirit gems for destroying vases and headstones! and lets not forget health power ups from kicking lapdogs in JE!

 

 

 

"Story is ALWAYS the most important aspect of RPGs."

 

No. Story, character interaction, player freedom (not just in where you go but how you get there), and combat are ALL important to RPGs. ALL OF THEM.

 

Wait, are you saying haveing the choice of picking where you go is important?

 

but Im confused, you have no choice in JE, you got from 2 rivers to tiems to imperial city to palace to dirge to palace (with a quick stop at Lord Laos furnace) every time! You cant sway from that route what so ever!

 

So that limits player freedom by your own words doesnt it?

 

*grins*

 

 

"However, Jade Empire absolutely *DESTROYS* the KotOR's!"

 

Maybe, but KotOR2 is still a more mature story!

 

Only those who don't know what REAL role-playing, quality writing, and depth isd would think otherwise.

 

dont worry, we wont hold it against you that your not a REAL roleplayer.

 

at least your not trying to have real conversations with Dawn like Blackfriar is from Bioware boards!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well being a roleplayer is hard for both Kotors, though I find the easier one to be Kotor 1..

 

I mean you can roleplay a Mandalorian soldier (They took the damn helmet out of K2 even though I bet its still rotting in the game files).

You can roleplay a Republic Soldier (Remember to buy guns off the Yavin Merchant)

You can roleplay a jedi padawan (you're not forced to grind exp, nor pick a prestigse class).

No need to have 15 points into intelligence to gain all the skills to gain additonal options to gain influence, sure seeing your buddies follow your alignment was cool but not to the point where you're forced to have an high intelligence to complete all the character converstations.

[Kalfear]

LOL MT,

 

Sorry, her roleplayer comment and my reply was just quick joking jabs at each other based off a thread on bioware boards.

 

(a poster (on bioware boards) posted that I was a powergamer and he was a true roleplayer because he took over 40 hours to complete JE where as I came in at the low end of the normal time spectrum for players at 20 hours. My reply was, "a true roleplayer? ummmm you do know this is a single player game, you CANT actually hold a conversation with Dawn Star.")

 

Inside joke is all, dont take what either of us said regarding Roleplaying serious

[MTJ]

LOL MT,

 

Sorry, her roleplayer comment and my reply was just quick joking jabs at each other based off a thread on bioware boards.

 

(a poster (on bioware boards) posted that I was a powergamer and he was a true roleplayer because he took over 40 hours to complete JE where as I came in at the low end of the normal time spectrum for players at 20 hours. My reply was, "a true roleplayer? ummmm you do know this is a single player game, you CANT actually hold a conversation with Dawn Star.")

 

Inside joke is all, dont take what either of us said regarding Roleplaying serious

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well when it comes to roleplaying games.. taking the time, talking to every converstation... not abusing bugs, not having like 8 points in every stat besides for wisdom and chrisma.

[Andkat]

Can we please cease conversation on Jade Empire. it's utterly irrelevant. I prefered every apsect of Kotor2 over Kotor (including ending), other than the "colelct 4 X things and go to a planet for a finale". I've played 4 games iwth the exact same premise (NWN, KOTOr,NWNSOTU,KOTOR2). The game, however was OBVIOUSLY rushed. You're eitehr sleep deprived or insane if you cannot see that. I mean honestly, the game screws up near the end, with short sequances, random cutscenes, and some pointless areas. I hated the battle with Nihilus, I knw nothing about him and he was pathetic yet he was supposed to be "uvber dark lord of hunger". WIth Malak there was actually TENSION. Everyone basically said "beware of Malak, he'll owen you, he has amazing abilties". But in this game, the villains are barely metnioned. Yu have no clue as to what they are, or their powers. Not only that, but you did know their appearance and very basic bio. It was a bizzare and exasperating semi-mystery that was illogical and ant-climactic (otehr than Kreia, who was well-done, though a bit under-powered). I actually prefererd the edning. In Kotor, the LS ending was ripped from "A New Hope" (everyone is happy an dgets medals, there's large quantities of cheering, etc.) Kotot 2 had mystery to its ending, though I would hav eprefererd more elaboration and some dakr hints as to the Exile's fate (and a far more thorough prediction on the fates of your companions, and actual romances, and resolved loose ends). Finally, the planets where underpopulated and lacked meaningful quests other than the primary plot. I loved Kototr's planets, but Kotot 2 was mostyly sterile (especially Korriban, I was hungering to explore more dark, myserious locations). And Malachor V was sterile and rushed. And the backrounds where horrific, they where 2D backrounds (as where the extrenal explosions). But the villains, heros, an dplot had sso much potential, its depressing. I still love Kotor 2, even for it's almost countless failures.

[OneWithStrange]

I slightly prefer KOTOR1 though both are good games. Still:

 

JE > KOTOR series "

 

 

'Okay, your bias is understood but you must see that LA just wasn't being fair. Kotor 2 could have been the game of the year no doubt no questions asked if given more time. Obsidian had 13 months, started late 2003 and finished late 2004. Bioware started work in 2001 and finished in 2003. Holy freaking cow."

 

Let's not forget that BIO had to create the engine, the rules, and pretty much everything. Obsidian basically had all that stuff doen for them. That surely saved thema  lot of time alone. I think the comparison is absolutely fair.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Sorry, dude, but the K1 engine was a modified version of Bioware's previously built Aurora engine. They didn't create a new engine from scratch for K1.

 

Obsidian didn't have enough time, is all. I'm completely confident and convinced that if they had as much time as Bioware had (engine tweaking aside), TSL would have easily over-shadowed its predecessor.

 

-Ben

[Volourn]

"Obsidian didn't have enough time, is all. I'm completely confident and convinced that if they had as much time as Bioware had (engine tweaking aside), TSL would have easily over-shadowed its predecessor."

 

Yeah, and if I had a billion dolalrs, 10 years, and free reign, I'd makes the perfect game unmatched by any other. *yawn*

 

In order words, what ifs mean crap. If, if, if. If only. If, if, if. Unlike you, I live in the real world; not an alternate reality.

 

P.S. For all intents and purposes, the Odyessy Engine is a 100% new engine. Basically, almost all engines use a base to start from. If you cna't see there being vast differences between the Aurora to the Odyessy Engine in KOTOR1 comapred to the two KOTOR games; you are obvious drunk.

[Plano Skywalker]

Yeah, and if I had a billion dolalrs, 10 years, and free reign, I'd makes the perfect game unmatched by any other.  *yawn*

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You just can't conceed anything here, can you? You are one of the only non-munchkin gamers here who does not think K2 is better had it not been rushed or, at the very least, had a modicum of QA.

 

No, his ideas do not suggest he is drunk.

[Volourn]

"You just can't conceed anything here, can you?"

 

I can if I feel it should be conceeded.

 

 

"You are one of the only non-munchkin gamers"

 

I must say. This statement impresses me.

 

 

"who does not think K2 is better had it not been rushed or, at the very least, had a modicum of QA."

 

That's because, likely, that while the QA would have fixed things like bugs and the broken ending it wouldn't have made the combat any more challenging, or the unbalance of all the items, or the fact that Influence is more about the NPCs effecting the PC than the other away around (yes, exemptions exist), the writing while very good places isn't as deep as people claim (sure is no PST in spite of it being the same writer), and the big one that Kreia is completely forced on you despite the fact it is obvious from the get go that she is going to betray you.

 

As you cna see, while I enjoy KOTOR2, I have lots of problems with KOTOR2 based on thinsg that just giving them more time wouldn't fix on their own. Remember that if Obsidian had 6 more months; they'd just as likely use it to add more content instend of cleaning up the content in the game.

 

And, oh, don't think of it as some ringing endorsement of KOTOR1 as KOTOR2 is pretty much as good as it to me. KOTOR1 slightly edges out at 82% - 80%. Both are fun games; but neither of them are 'classics' to me.

 

[OneWithStrange]

As you cna see, while I enjoy KOTOR2, I have lots of problems with KOTOR2 based on thinsg that just giving them more time wouldn't fix on their own. Remember that if Obsidian had 6 more months; they'd just as likely use it to add more content instend of cleaning up the content in the game.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

That sounds like a big extrapolation on your part, Volourn. Dare I say it was an 'if'?

 

If Obsidian had more time, you know what they would have done with it; added the Droid planet, HK factory, character depth/endings... I'd bet M V would have been a lot better designed, too, seeing as how it was towards the end and the need to rush the game was more evident.

 

-Ben

[Plano Skywalker]

with regard to Influence, I must say, it was poorly implemented in that:

 

* the PC is the one being influenced (at least it seems that way most of the time).

 

* it is alignment-based (this is BAD since you can't swap out ship passengers).

 

* it unlocks way too many main story clues than it should...Influence should be about "extra" stuff.

 

However, I have never played a game that tried anything that ambitious. I applaud them for putting something like that on the table.

[Volourn]

"That sounds like a big extrapolation on your part, Volourn. Dare I say it was an 'if'?"

 

Haha. You got me with the if. I posted right into the corner. :D

 

 

"If Obsidian had more time, you know what they would have done with it; added the Droud planet, HK factory, character depth/endings... I'd bet M V would have been a lot better designed, too, seeing as how it was towards the end and the need to rush the game was more evident."

 

You make it sound so easy. There was no need to rush the game. They poorly planned the dvelopment is all. When KOTOR2 was first announced; it was due out in November; it came out in December and February respectively. There was no need to rush. Instead of spreading out the material; they should have dealt with ammount of material they could handle in that year's time. Instead, they tried to pack too much in. That's an Obsidian bad; not a LA bad there. It wasn't like theyw er eoriginally given 2 years and then forced to ship out at the last moment a year before hand. They *knew* the time table basiclaly when they were originally hired.

 

Who knows what could've happened if they wer egiven 2 years of times? Chances are is they would ahve tried to put 3 years of work into a 2 year schedule.

 

Time for me to play BIO fnaboy for a sec. While JE has gotten great overall reviews by professioanls and gamers alike the biggets complaint is its length. Too short people say eyt what people forget is that JE is virtually bugless (other than the long load times), and the quality control and depth is still there. But, it's short. I say, the fact that BIO made sure what they included in the game was top notch instead of just making a 40 hour game because they 'have to' is why it worked out as wella s it did.

 

 

'However, I have never played a game that tried anything that ambitious. I applaud them for putting something like that on the table.'

 

Um. Many games have influence. It just wans't as hyped. BG series, PST, FO series, JE, and others have this feature. It wasn't as ambitious as people think.

[Kalfear]

Yeah, and if I had a billion dolalrs, 10 years, and free reign, I'd makes the perfect game unmatched by any other.  *yawn*

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You just can't conceed anything here, can you? You are one of the only non-munchkin gamers here who does not think K2 is better had it not been rushed or, at the very least, had a modicum of QA.

 

No, his ideas do not suggest he is drunk.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Psst Plano, just tell her KotOR2 was a more mature story!

 

Works every time

 

*grins*

[Plano Skywalker]

'However, I have never played a game that tried anything that ambitious. I applaud them for putting something like that on the table.'

 

Um. Many games have influence. It just wans't as hyped. BG series, PST, FO series, JE, and others have this feature. It wasn't as ambitious as people think.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I have not yet played FO or PST although I now own the games and hope to be playing them sometime this year. I am currently going through BG1, though. And, if there is NPC (party member) influence there, I must have missed it. It is certainly not an essential part of the game.

 

I have logged many hours with Morrowind. Morrowind has influence...you can flatter, bribe, etc and you actually get to see the influence rating you have with that NPC right on the screen!

 

No, we are talking about apples and oranges here. To have influence so intricately and yet subtely woven into the actual dialogue tree was an ambitious undertaking. This was something that, had they gotten it right, would have turned the cRPG upside down. They didn't quite get it but they came close. I sure hope that whoever does K3 perfects it.

[Volourn]

Subtlely woven in? You musta been playing a different game? It was hammered in.