mandalore wars inconsistancy

[gamesneal]

Just played Kotor I. The revision of the fight at MV in Kotor II does not make sense. Revan killed Mandolore personally and Canderous says it was a glorious battle. The mass Shadow generator was a weapon of mass destruction that involved no honor or glory. It is Obsidian turning an optimistic moment from Kotor intom another Death and Destruction depressing theme, which is all the Obisidian programmers know.

[Taran'atar]

For god sake ...

 

Malachor V is a TSL creation, its NEVER mentioned in KotOR and Canderous never said exactly were Revan killed Mandalore.

 

Again the war ended with Revan killing Mandalore and since Revan never set a foot in Malachor V as far we know (Kreia is -again- wrong, the Republic knew exactly were Korriban was located because it happened to be the place the Republic found the Sith Empire and so would Revan).

 

Malachor V is mentioned in KOTOR as the site of the final battle of the war. Canderous tells you flat out that Malachor V is where the war ended. He makes no mention of where, when or how Revan killed Mandalore. That part, at least, you're correct on. Mandalore may have died at Malachor V, killed by a trap Revan had set, and so Revan gets the credit/blame. Revan may have killed Mandalore in a lightsaber/sword battle before Malachor V. No way to tell. There's no inconsistancy here.

 

There may be an inconsistancy involving HK-47s construction and his failed attempt to kill Mandalore. If there is, it's also an internal inconsistancy in KOTOR 1. HK says clear as day that he was built after Revan and Malak began their war to conquer the galaxy, at which point, according to Canderous, Mandalore would already have been dead.

[Grant Dempsey]

The Exile obviously was in charge of a division fighting on the ground, as the Exile carries the title of General, not Admiral, implying the Exile does not command ships.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Actually, I believe it was mentioned at certain points throughout the game (most notably by "Mandalore" a few times) that the Exile was indeed at least given command of a starfleet at some point. Since Canderous actually mentioned that the Exile commanded the starfleet "that defeated ours", I would be inclined to believe that the Exile had direct command of the starfleet that was at Malachor V.

 

Anyway, regarding the issue of whether or not Revan was actually present during the final battle of the Mandalorian Wars at Malachor V, I recall that one of the loading screens on Malachor V actually stated that Revan was on the planet's surface at the time, channeling the dark energies of the Trayus Academy to turn the tide of the space battle overhead and manipulate its outcome, like a more external (and probably darker) version of Bastila's Battle Meditation to some degree.

 

Also, regarding the issue of whether or not Revan intended to destroy Malachor V in a "last ditch effort" from the moment the space battle began there, I would say there was a reasonable amount of evidence supporting that idea. Remember, Malachor V itself was a living entity in some sense, akin to how Malak described the Star Forge in the previous game. Malachor V hungered and "fed" its dark energies on war and death, rejuvenating its power, pretty much the same as the Exile, Darth Nihilus, and the other Sith that "trained" at the Trayus Academy. Now, it was heavily implied that Malachor V was even Revan's main base (or at least a major one) during the Jedi Civil War, before Kreia even came along, and that it was there where Revan converted so many Jedi into Sith and even so many soldiers of the Galactic Republic into soldiers of the newly-revived Sith Order.

 

Now, during the confrontation with the three Jedi Masters in the rebuilt Jedi Enclave on Dantooine, Kreia said something along the lines of, "There are dark places in this galaxy, where the power of the very ground you walk upon eat at you, slowly eroding what you are and changing you. Did you not ever wonder how Revan was able to convert so many Jedi, so many remnants of the Republic? Revan knew the value in such places, and the value in creating them."

 

That final part was the one of interest. "...and the value in creating them." Well, "creating" Malachor V as such a center of dark corruption and whatnot would've most likely required that its power be fed and vastly restored, its hunger sustained, which, of course, would've, in turn, required that there be "war and death" on a relatively massive scale.

 

So, no, I don't agree with HK-47's explanation, really... HK-47 said Revan was killing two birds with one stone: Defeating the Mandalorians and "cleaning house" with those of the men and women serving under him whose loyalty to him was in doubt. I would wager that Revan was actually killing three birds with one stone: Defeating the Mandalorians, "cleaning house" as HK-47 suggested, and using that final battle -- the defeat of the Mandalorians and the "sacrifice" who were doubtful of their loyalties -- to bring about death on enough of a scale that it could feed Malachor V. To that extent, I don't think I would put it past Revan to have not only known about the Mass Shadow Generator, but planned for its use. Obviously, the Exile and Bao-Dur were the ones most directly involved in its activation (the Exile for most likely giving the order; Bao-Dur for building it in the first place and for quite possibly being the one to press the button himself), but Revan still could have planned for it in some way.

 

Actually, seeing as he was apparently "manipulating" the space battle by channeling the dark energies of the Trayus Academy on Malachor V's surface, maybe what he truly did was turn the tide of the battle in such a way that both the Mandalorians and his own starfleet were taking heavy losses (yes -- working against his own starfleet to some extent there), for the purpose of setting up a situation in which the Exile would've been unknowingly manipulated into having no choice but to fall back on giving the order to activate the Mass Shadow Generator as their "last resort". In effect, it ended the Mandalorian Wars, rid Revan of those whom weren't entirely loyal to him (either by death at the hands of the Mandalorians and the Mass Shadow Generator's activation combined or by conversion at the mercy of Malachor V's corruptive energies), and fed Malachor V's power to set it up as a base for corrupting captured soldiers and Jedi later, all in one fell swoop.

 

I can't really imagine Revan passing up such an opportunity, since, even that early on, it seemed he was already making plans for initializing the Jedi Civil War. Besides, this idea has a relatively good amount of evidence to support it.

[kalimeeri]

And where did you get that stuff about Revan not wanting the Exile to die, from what HK says Revan wasn't too fond of the Exile because he felt his strong ability to form bonds would be his downfall.

 

 

HK tells you. He says Malak wanted to kill Exile when Exile declined to follow them, but Revan wouldn't let him. He also said Revan wanted Exile to go back before the Jedi Council; Revan felt that the Council would see then what a Jedi was capable of, and the cost.

 

I got the opposite impression of Revan's feelings toward Exile. I think he admired Exile to some extent. Revan had obviously been observing how others responded to Exile, at the academy, if he made those comments to HK. Revan in fact ended up studying bonding intensively himself--because he realized that was the key to turning Jedi. The soldiers on Malachor's surface bonded with each other, swaying their beliefs and loyalties, all the while under the tremendous pressure of Malachor's dark influence.

 

IMO, Revan may have developed some of the ability in himself, but that was different from Exile's natural (and unconscious) ability. It wasn't as strong, and could be controlled. I think what HK interpreted as pity was really regret.

[kalimeeri]

A little OT, but the relationship between Revan and Exile sets up some very interesting possibilities for K3. If it follows and concludes the story so far(doesn't go off on a tangent), these two PC's might not instantly hit if off when they finally meet. Maybe their goals are the same, but Exile didn't exactly exhibit loyalty toward Revan when he turned away, regardless of LS or DS. And I'd doubt LS Exile would appreciate Revan's tactics and manipulations with regard to the Jedi and himself, if Revan truly didn't 'fall' to the DS.

[Ahkey]

A little OT, but the relationship between Revan and Exile sets up some very interesting possibilities for K3. If it follows and concludes the story so far(doesn't go off on a tangent), these two PC's might not instantly hit if off when they finally meet. Maybe their goals are the same, but Exile didn't exactly exhibit loyalty toward Revan when he turned away, regardless of LS or DS. And I'd doubt LS Exile would appreciate Revan's tactics and manipulations with regard to the Jedi and himself, if Revan truly didn't 'fall' to the DS.

 

If anything, K1 and 2 have compounded to make K3 a massive undertaking. There is a minimum of 4 (assuming the PC is Revan or Exile and that they both feature) and a minimum of 12 (if the PC is a new char, and that Revan and Exile feature) possible story arcs.

 

1) Revan is DS. Exile is DS. Exile encounters Revan and joins him.

2) Revan is DS. Exile is LS. Exile encounters Revan and works against him.

3) Revan is LS. Exile is LS. Exile encounters Revan and joins him.

4) Revan is LS. Exile is DS. Exile encounters Revan and works against him.

 

5) PC is DS. Revan is DS. Exile is DS. PC joins Revan and Exile.

6) PC is DS. Revan is LS. Exile is LS. PC works against Revan and Exile.

7) PC is DS. Revan is DS. Exile is LS. PC joins Revan and works against Exile.

PC is DS. Revan is LS. Exile is DS. PC joins Exile and works against Revan.

9) PC is LS. Revan is DS. Exile is DS. PC works against Revan and Exile.

10) PC is LS. Revan is LS. Exile is LS. PC joins Revan and Exile.

11)PC is LS. Revan is DS. Exile is LS. PC joins Exile and works against Revan.

12) PC is LS. Revan is LS. Exile is DS. PC joins Revan and works against Exile.

 

Then remember that every option listed must take male/female appearence/lines into account. From every conceivable production point of view, it's a nightmare.

 

I really doubt that whoever helms K3 can afford to use both characters and leave their gender/alignment undefined. "

[Lord Tarondor]

Kreia, or somebody, said something to the effect of, 'Those that could not be made loyal to Revan and who were unable to be turned were apart of the atrocities committed at Malachor.'

 

If you think about it, Revan had an entire fleet of soldiers and generals and what-not in Knights of the Old Republic I. The atrocity at Malachor was obviously Revan's attempt to weaken the Republic before he made his plans for conquest against the Republic in order to strengthen it against what lay hidden in the shadows of Unknown Space.

 

My biggest question concerns the Exile then General apart of that Fleet -- can this be taken to mean the Exile would not have followed Revan had she maintained her connection to the Force? Is Kreia perhaps wrong in assuming the power Revan promised and what-not was impossible to say no to?

 

Such a question may be an inconsistancy generated from the lack of time they had. They are (the designers of Black Isle/Obsidian) well known for their excellent stories that strive to be different than the usual but it could have been another time constraint that left such a gaping hole -- The Malachor Chapter -- in the age of Revan and the Jedi Civil War.

 

My take on it is that he -- Revan -- knew what he was doing and had put those that would not conform easily to his ideas in an area where he knew heavy lives would lost. If you talk to GOT0 you gain information on how he sacked and destroyed only what needed to be destroyed, killed only who was necessary and I don't see how Malachor should be any different.

 

The Mass Shadow Generator comes into play since we know it was probably not apart of Revan's plan but a last-ditch effort; perhaps Revan had not planned for the Republic fleet to be that victorious. I'm assuming there was a frontal fleet that went head to head and dug down and was hitting the Mandalorians head on and there was a fleet somewhere nearby. I'm also going to go out on the limb and think the Mandalorians -- Mandalore especially -- are also doing the exact same thing and if all those play correctly, we can see how Revan defeated Mandalore there.

 

I, at first -- from what I know from KotOR'1, believed Mandalore was killed in a totally different location -- perhaps Mandalore -- and perhaps Obsidian over-looked that as well. Perhaps BioWare never intended Revan to be such a tactical genius and such a heavy-thinker plotting ideas and battles far into the future but he has certainly turned up to be probably one of the neatest and most interesting Star Wars characters.

 

As for the Exile, there's an inconsistancy in her being so... like Revan -- doing what must me done and expending resources that are necessary for victory, no more -- no less. If so, why was she the one leading and giving the go on the Mass Shadow Generator? Shouldn't she have been the one saving lives despite the outcome? I think it would have made for a better story if she too, didn't have to fight her own demons in the end (The Secret Tomb on Korriban) and was instead pondering if she made the right decision to save lives instead of absolute victory.

 

With how Malachor turned out, it certainly leaves more to be desired -- the Mass Shadow Generator really irks me as does the Exile's character since she seems so weak at times. She could have really been the polar opposite of Revan and her part at Malachor would be more consistant.

 

Its very hard for a gaming company to be consistant when its not their story, originally, but BioWare pulled it off and many have previously. I can't really say anything except that Obsidian has once again failed.

[Lord_of_Hunger]

Well, just about everything has been said, but I'll add my two sents.

 

Revan was a genious, and we know from the Starmap in Kashyyyk he was perfectly willing to make a sacrifice if it meant victory. So, thinking about that, I believe Malachor was, of course, a trap. It is possible Revan gathered all his fleet at Malachor to bait the Madalorians there. It wad to be a huge force to force the Madaloreans to commit the whole fleet.

 

Then, as the battle progressed, he probably divided them between those loyal to him and not who weren't. He might have sent the loyal ships out of the area to fake some kind of flanking attack or to strike somewhere else while the Madalores were engaged a Malachor (think the last Battle of Mon Cal in 'The Unifying Force'). And he had the Exile to activate the MSG, effectively wiping out the Madaloreans, and all his disloyal subjects including Jedi in one stroke.

 

He knew that Malachor would, one way or another, kill all the Jedi there. Death of such a large scale caused by Jedi would either turn them to the Dark Side or simply destroy them. Revan probably never intended for the Exile to survive, but I'm guessing he didn't anticipate the Exile would cut his link to the force for the sake of self-preservation.

 

It's all speculation of course. Feel free to disagree,

[Plano Skywalker]

A little OT, but the relationship between Revan and Exile sets up some very interesting possibilities for K3. If it follows and concludes the story so far(doesn't go off on a tangent), these two PC's might not instantly hit if off when they finally meet. Maybe their goals are the same, but Exile didn't exactly exhibit loyalty toward Revan when he turned away, regardless of LS or DS. And I'd doubt LS Exile would appreciate Revan's tactics and manipulations with regard to the Jedi and himself, if Revan truly didn't 'fall' to the DS.

 

If anything, K1 and 2 have compounded to make K3 a massive undertaking. There is a minimum of 4 (assuming the PC is Revan or Exile and that they both feature) and a minimum of 12 (if the PC is a new char, and that Revan and Exile feature) possible story arcs.

 

1) Revan is DS. Exile is DS. Exile encounters Revan and joins him.

2) Revan is DS. Exile is LS. Exile encounters Revan and works against him.

3) Revan is LS. Exile is LS. Exile encounters Revan and joins him.

4) Revan is LS. Exile is DS. Exile encounters Revan and works against him.

 

5) PC is DS. Revan is DS. Exile is DS. PC joins Revan and Exile.

6) PC is DS. Revan is LS. Exile is LS. PC works against Revan and Exile.

7) PC is DS. Revan is DS. Exile is LS. PC joins Revan and works against Exile.

PC is DS. Revan is LS. Exile is DS. PC joins Exile and works against Revan.

9) PC is LS. Revan is DS. Exile is DS. PC works against Revan and Exile.

10) PC is LS. Revan is LS. Exile is LS. PC joins Revan and Exile.

11)PC is LS. Revan is DS. Exile is LS. PC joins Exile and works against Revan.

12) PC is LS. Revan is LS. Exile is DS. PC joins Revan and works against Exile.

 

Then remember that every option listed must take male/female appearence/lines into account. From every conceivable production point of view, it's a nightmare.

 

I really doubt that whoever helms K3 can afford to use both characters and leave their gender/alignment undefined. "

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

There is no way they are going to do this, though. I think having the Exile as a LS scripted character would be fine with most people (most of the DS players on this board seem to be more attached to Revan and most of the gender/race concerns seem to be directed more to Revan).

 

I'm thinking Revan is the key, obviously, in many ways to KOTOR 3 but Revan does not have to be visible. The Exile should explain what Revan has been doing and why he is indisposed to help out with the war effort.

 

Then, in KOTOR 4, your PC investigates the untimely death of Senator Revan. By that time, Revan's identity will not be a showstopper for anyone.

[Vashanti]

 

[kalimeeri]

Then remember that every option listed must take male/female appearence/lines into account. From every conceivable production point of view, it's a nightmare.

 

I really doubt that whoever helms K3 can afford to use both characters and leave their gender/alignment undefined.  "

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

The complications decrease considerably if you leave a new PC out of the mix. I would prefer they did. Combine the working/against and then working/with together into the same story line, and it's even less. We've done the new padawan routine so many times it's getting boring, and I don't think they need it.

[Lord Orpheus]

Dude, all those storylines would be awesome. It might atctually make me wanna buy it over Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion

[Plano Skywalker]

@Grant Dempsey

 

nice post!

[AlanC9]

The complications decrease considerably if you leave a new PC out of the mix.  I would prefer they did.  Combine the working/against and then working/with together into the same story line, and it's even less.  We've done the new padawan routine so many times it's getting boring, and I don't think they need it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

So you want to start playing K3 at level 20+?

[stormcloud777]

Leave KOTOR alone. Let Revan just be out there.

 

You know they'll cook up some ****amamie inconsistent story.

 

Just move on to a new hero in 3!!!

 

Also, I like when they make the storylines slightly mysterious. It makes you have to think hard about what the "real" version is. As you know, the story could just be one interpretation of actual events; kinda like how "Vader killed Anakin Skywalker".

 

And personally, I think all the storylines go downhill from here. KOTOR was great because it had a uber-revelation. There isn't all that many more revelations you can have at this point....

[Jedi Master D Murda]

HK tells you.  He says Malak wanted to kill Exile when Exile declined to follow them, but Revan wouldn't let him.  He also said Revan wanted Exile to go back before the Jedi Council; Revan felt that the Council would see then what a Jedi was capable of, and the cost.

 

I got the opposite impression of Revan's feelings toward Exile.  I think he admired Exile to some extent.  Revan had obviously been observing how others responded to Exile, at the academy, if he made those comments to HK.  Revan in fact ended up studying bonding intensively himself--because he realized that was the key to turning Jedi.  The soldiers on Malachor's surface bonded with each other, swaying their beliefs and loyalties, all the while under the tremendous pressure of Malachor's dark influence. 

 

IMO, Revan may have developed some of the ability in himself, but that was different from Exile's natural (and unconscious) ability.  It wasn't as strong, and could be controlled.  I think what HK interpreted as pity was really regret.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Are you sure? I don't remember any of that being said.

 

Well, just about everything has been said, but I'll add my two sents.

 

Revan was a genious, and we know from the Starmap in Kashyyyk he was perfectly willing to make a sacrifice if it meant victory. So, thinking about that, I believe Malachor was, of course, a trap. It is possible Revan gathered all his fleet at Malachor to bait the Madalorians there. It wad to be a huge force to force the Madaloreans to commit the whole fleet.

 

Then, as the battle progressed, he probably divided them between those loyal to him and not who weren't. He might have sent the loyal ships out of the area to fake some kind of flanking attack or to strike somewhere else while the Madalores were engaged a Malachor (think the last Battle of Mon Cal in 'The Unifying Force'). And he had the Exile to activate the MSG, effectively wiping out the Madaloreans, and all his disloyal subjects including Jedi in one stroke.

 

He knew that Malachor would, one way or another, kill all the Jedi there. Death of such a large scale caused by Jedi would either turn them to the Dark Side or simply destroy them. Revan probably never intended for the Exile to survive, but I'm guessing he didn't anticipate the Exile would cut his link to the force for the sake of self-preservation.

 

It's all speculation of course. Feel free to disagree,

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yeah. I really think the Exile was one of those that should have either been destroyed or turned especially since he knew about the Exile's ability to form connections through the force and would explain why he was made General and sent to lead that fleet above Malachor If he survived most of those in his flee would be turned and if he did not then every one there would have died.

[Darth Nuke]

"The Sith had gone - retreated into their empire. They sealed themselves off from the rest of the galaxy. We thought it would be centuries before they'd come back. It's amazing that they could rebuild their fleet so fast. But at the time it looked like the galaxy was in our grasp! I still remember that final battle in the skies above Malachor V. The two fleets filling the space around it, outshining the stars

[Darth Nuke]

HK-47: I had completed an assassination in Mandalorian space

[Darth Nuke]

I must add that if the Mandalore, HK couldn't kill was a member of the Mandalorian race, by default he would over power Canderous as leader of the Mandalorians. With or without the Mask.

 

The Mandalorian race is the superior race. The humans,Togorians,Mandallians, and other races are just converts.

 

Canderous was the first HUMAN Mandalore, but if he wants full power he's going to have to fight another Mandalore for it.

[Darth Coran]

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

 

Mon Calamari close-up,this is like shifting an emotional gear and getting it stuck between a sense of"aww it's cute" and "holy hell,what kind of monster is that?"

[Darth Coran]

I must add that if the Mandalore, HK couldn't kill was a member of the Mandalorian race, by default he would over power Canderous as leader of the Mandalorians. With or without the Mask.

 

The Mandalorian race is the superior race. The humans,Togorians,Mandallians, and other races are just converts.

 

Canderous was the first HUMAN Mandalore, but if he wants full power he's going to have to fight another Mandalore for it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

actually they aren't superior at all,each race has special ability,humans:the ability to be unique,choose different things

Mandalorians:focusing only on battle giving them prowess in battle

Echani:powerful in unarmed combat with a strong code of honor

 

and so on and so forth.

[Darth Nuke]

I'm talking about supieroity over converted races that weren't of the Mandalorian race.

[Darth Mandalore]

You do relise its just another flaw of a brilliant but rushed game.

[Darth Tratious]

I could be wrong but from what I renember the republic fleet at the battle above Malachor V consisted out of soldiers/jedi loyal to the republic who would not turn against it to become sith soldiers/dark jedi - that's why they were expendable or even worse -> were supposed to die at Malachor.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

you got it they were loyal to the republic not to Revan and he saw then as expendable

[Calax]

like bush and the world opinion...