mandalore wars inconsistancy

[OrganisedChaos]

In kotor we got some background into the mandalore wars. The republic was getting its ass kicked untill Revan showed up, turned the tide, fought the mandalorians to a standstill and then started pushing back. the republic emerged victorious in the war.

 

Yet in TSL it seems the opposite happened. at the last battle the repubic fleet at malachor was outgunned and nearly defeated and they activated the mass shadow generator as a last resort because they knew they would lose. almost the entire mandalorian fleet and a good deal of the republic fleet was crushed at malachor, hardly a great victory, more an arrogant "if we won't win we'll use the planet to destroy the both of us" attitude from the exile.

 

so in TSL it seems that even with revan and the jedi, the republic forces weren't able to win in a real sense. waiting untill your forces are reduced to a few ships and then effectivly blowing up the planet when the enemy has really won the fight doesnt seem honorable or fair. even the game says 'the atrocity at malachor was worse than anything the mandalorians commited during the war'. So much for the jedi being good, they commit mass muder of everyone just out of spite. They had lost the battle but blew the crap out of everyone anyway.

 

so did obsidian rewrite the war to make a better story? If like KOTOR suggested the war was won fairly easy then there would have been no need to blow up malachor.

 

and where was revan when that battle happened? bao-dur said he was delayed by mandalorian scouts, but the leader of the republics fleet should have been present at the last battle. another inconsistany, as in KOTOR it was made out like revan led the republic to victory, but TSl says he wasnt even there at the pivital last battle.

[Darth Kavar]

I could be wrong but from what I renember the republic fleet at the battle above Malachor V consisted out of soldiers/jedi loyal to the republic who would not turn against it to become sith soldiers/dark jedi - that's why they were expendable or even worse -> were supposed to die at Malachor.

[Taran'atar]

There is no major inconsistancy here. The fleet at Malachor V was one of the Republic's fleets, not the entire thing. Just because that fleet was on the verge of defeat doesn't mean that the entire war was going badly for the Republic.

[Darth Credulous]

I get the impression that the Mass Shadow Generator was not a last-ditch weapon but a carefully-prepared trap that Revan lured the Mandalorians into. A trap that required the bait of a lot of Republic men and women, but a trap nonetheless.

[Darth Coran]

I get the impression that the Mass Shadow Generator was not a last-ditch weapon but a carefully-prepared trap that Revan lured the Mandalorians into. A trap that required the bait of a lot of Republic men and women, but a trap nonetheless.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

 

actually I'm almost positive that it says somewhere that it was supposed to be used as a "if I'm going to hell,I'm taking you with me." type of weapon,though,considering it is after all Revan,I wouldn't say your idea is impossible.

[Darth Nuke]

I think it was said that Revan had ordered the fleet(implication of entire fleet here) to Malachor to draw the Mandalorians.

 

Of course there is no contradiction regardless.

 

Remember what Canderous said in KOTOR 1,"It was not the Republic that beat the Mandalorians, it was the Jedi Revan."

 

According to the game, Revan was late for the battle. In KOTOR 1 I believe it's said that he makes it, because Mandalore the Ultimate died at Malachor, and Revan killed him.

 

We must also remember that Revan was falling to the Dark Side because of the Dark power of Malachor, it was even his intention to use this power against the Mandalorians.

 

Maybe Exile acted to quickly, maybe Revan arrived after the bomb went off. Sources have said that not as many Mandalorians died at Malachor as the game says. So Revan arrives after the bomb, a majority of the Mandalorian fleet destroyed with it, and Revan fights and pushes back the rest. Until he kills Mandalore and the Mandalorians surrender.

[kalimeeri]

Malachor wasn't the whole war, but it was THE critical battle in the war, I think. Revan's trap destroyed more than Mandalorian troops; it fragmented their spirit. If the war had gone on and on, the Republic would have lost, because it was at the limit of its resources--the Mandalorians were willing to fight forever. But such a horrible, unforseen defeat made them doubt themselves, and fear Revan. From there it was just a matter of keeping up the pressure until they crumbled. The final blow was the killing of Mandalore--it was symbolic.

[Drakron]

The only way to beat the Mandalorians was to beat Mandalore himsef.

 

In KotOR the game pretty much says Revan beat Mandalore (the leader) in Mandalore (the planet) and so ending the war.

 

TSL adds confusion by saying the war ended at Malachor (with is false, it ended when Reaven killed Mandalore) and goes around implying that Revan did send that Republic fleet to get destroyed.

 

Problem is who says that is HK-47 that by his own words ends up not even being build at that time, also that contradicts KotOR since HK-47 was send into Mandalorian space, captured and then send by his new Mandalorian master to kill Mandalore and since Revan taken Mandalore mask and given it to Canderous that can only mean HK-47 was build during the Mandalorian Wars.

[The Great Phantom]

I get the impression that the Mass Shadow Generator was not a last-ditch weapon but a carefully-prepared trap that Revan lured the Mandalorians into. A trap that required the bait of a lot of Republic men and women, but a trap nonetheless.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Revan used it to kill all that weren't loyal to him. It was intended, but it is possible that it was a 'sudden inspiration' sorta thing, but I doubt that.

[kalimeeri]

I get the impression that the Mass Shadow Generator was not a last-ditch weapon but a carefully-prepared trap that Revan lured the Mandalorians into. A trap that required the bait of a lot of Republic men and women, but a trap nonetheless.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Revan used it to kill all that weren't loyal to him. It was intended, but it is possible that it was a 'sudden inspiration' sorta thing, but I doubt that.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

My thoughts are that the battle was staged, but not the actual method. Revan was striking simultaneously on another front, and Exile was charged with the responsibility of closing the trap and winning at Malachor. Losing was not an option. The gravity generator was a device that Bao-Dur had cooked up, but Revan may not have known of it, and neither Bao nor Exile wanted to use it. So in that respect, I think it was a last-ditch resort. It was that, or fail. That made it Exile and Bao-Dur's choice alone, and when they saw and felt what they'd done, neither of them could live with it..

[Darth Nuke]

The only way to beat the Mandalorians was to beat Mandalore himsef.

 

In KotOR the game pretty much says Revan beat Mandalore (the leader) in Mandalore (the planet) and so ending the war.

 

TSL adds confusion by saying the war ended at Malachor (with is false, it ended when Reaven killed Mandalore) and goes around implying that Revan did send that Republic fleet to get destroyed.

 

Problem is who says that is HK-47 that by his own words ends up not even being build at that time, also that contradicts KotOR since HK-47 was send into Mandalorian space, captured and then send by his new Mandalorian master to kill Mandalore and since Revan taken Mandalore mask and given it to Canderous that can only mean HK-47 was build during the Mandalorian Wars.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Revan didn't kill Mandalore the Ultimate at Mandalore, it doesn't say where he killed him. Though it's implied through both games that it was at Malachor.

[AlanC9]

Revan didn't kill Mandalore the Ultimate at Mandalore, it doesn't say where he killed him. Though it's implied through both games that it was at Malachor.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Implied where? I don't see any such implication. In fact, my impression of Malachor V is that Revan wasn't present at all; wouldn't he have been giving orders rather than the Exile?

 

@Drakron: I don't think HK-47 was sent to kill Mandalore the Ultimate (hate the nomenclature, but we have to keep them distinct). He was sent after a pretender. We know that there were several, though nobody had the helmet until Canderous. HK-47 declares in KotOR:"You created me shortly after you and your apprentice began your war to conquer the galaxy;" it's also clear that Malak was already DS when HK-47 met him for the first time. My interpretation of this at the time was that HK-47 was built after the Mandalorians were defeated. This is consistent with KotOR 2.

 

@kalimeeri: it depends on if you buy HK-47's interpretation of Malachor V or not. If you do, then Revan intended to lose that portion of own fleet there. Though perhaps he didn't know about the MSG, and taking out the Mandalorians was a bonus.

[Drakron]

It does not really matter, the Mandalorian Wars ended with the death of Mandalore and Revan was the one that killed him so Malachor was not were the war ended, it was someplace else.

[Drakron]

@Drakron: I don't think HK-47 was sent to kill Mandalore the Ultimate (hate the nomenclature, but we have to keep them distinct). He was sent after a pretender. We know that there were several, though nobody had the helmet until Canderous. HK-47 declares in KotOR:"You created me shortly after you and your apprentice began your war to conquer the galaxy;" it's also clear that Malak was already DS when HK-47 met him for the first time. My interpretation of this at the time was that HK-47 was built after the Mandalorians were defeated. This is consistent with KotOR 2.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I actually do.

 

There is nothing to say that HK-47 was send by a Mandalorian officer to kill a pretender, expecialy since BioWare had no reason to make such storyline in the first place(overall complicated subplots that serve no purpose is not one of BioWare flaws).

[Darth Nuke]

Revan didn't kill Mandalore the Ultimate at Mandalore, it doesn't say where he killed him. Though it's implied through both games that it was at Malachor.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

@Drakron: I don't think HK-47 was sent to kill Mandalore the Ultimate (hate the nomenclature, but we have to keep them distinct). He was sent after a pretender. We know that there were several, though nobody had the helmet until Canderous. HK-47 declares in KotOR:"You created me shortly after you and your apprentice began your war to conquer the galaxy;" it's also clear that Malak was already DS when HK-47 met him for the first time. My interpretation of this at the time was that HK-47 was built after the Mandalorians were defeated. This is consistent with KotOR 2.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

HK-47 was sent to kill Mandalore in Mandalorian space, by another Mandalorian. There were no pretenders, and there were not several of them. This Mandalorian wouldn't have sent HK after Mandalore, if he wasn't really a Mandalore.

 

Hk even comfirms that it's a Mandalore,"It was most embarrassing, but he was MANDALORE afterall."

 

Clearly this other Mandalore felt he didn't need the helmet to rule.

 

So there are two Mandalore's, one in Mandalorian Space and Canderous(which Canderous hasn't even been to in 10 years), perhaps both will battle it out in KOTOR 3 for the throne.

[Darth Nuke]

Revan didn't kill Mandalore the Ultimate at Mandalore, it doesn't say where he killed him. Though it's implied through both games that it was at Malachor.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Implied where? I don't see any such implication. In fact, my impression of Malachor V is that Revan wasn't present at all; wouldn't he have been giving orders rather than the Exile?

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

According to Canderous in KOTOR, Revan faught the Mandalorians to a stand still a Malachor, then proceded to push them back. Of course this was before the time of the Mass Shadow bomb was created so, it's a conclusion that Revan arrived late for the battle, perhaps after the bomb went off.

[kalimeeri]

@kalimeeri: it depends on if you buy HK-47's interpretation of Malachor V or not. If you do, then Revan intended to lose that portion of own fleet there. Though perhaps he didn't know about the MSG, and taking out the Mandalorians was a bonus.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Prepared to lose them, yes. I wouldn't say he intended to. Malachor was all-or-nothing for the Jedi on the surface (and Mandalorians) but the ones who were doing the bombarding were already perceived to be on his side. All Revan cared about was that they were successful, turning Jedi to his cause or killing the ones who wouldn't.

 

Revan didn't want Exile to die. He argued with Malak about it, when Malak wanted to kill Exile for turning away afterward.

[Hey Steve]

Here's my best guess as to the timeline of the wars:

 

1) Mandalorians invade outer rim republic worlds.

2) Debates begin among the Jedi how to respond. Revan tries to marshall the Jedi to war, fails, then strikes out on his own with whomever will follow him.

3) By the time that Revan gets organized and joins the war in force, the Mandalorians have already scored many significant victories, capturing resources & destroying lots of republic forces.

4) Revan joins the fight, and gradually turns the tide and begins pushing the Mandalorians back. The Mandalorians still have advantages in terms of troop numbers & quality, but Revan's superior strategies tips the balance in favor of the Republic.

5) Decisive battle at Malachor V (may be only one of a few decisive battles). Mandalorians mass their troops (given that they still have advantages in superior forces) and so doing try to use that advantage to overcome Revan's superior strategy. Revan counters this by using the mass-shadow generator, thus in one stroke wiping out the bulk of the Mandalorian forces. Given that the mass-shadow generator is the key weapon, Revan only needs to send a large enough fleet to draw the Mandalorian fleet into battle, but doesn't need to send a fleet that could actually win. This fleet had to be sacrificed for the plan to work. TSL implies that Revan picked part of the fleet with dubious loyalty to him to sacrifice. Though he may not have been full DS at this time, just Kreia-style ruthless neutral jedi.

 

So the Republic forces were key to the war (part #4, and as a lure in part #5), but without Revan the Republic would have lost.

[Laozi]

Its really sad that Star Wars has turned to discussions like this

[Darth Nuke]

The Mandalorians didn't have numbers over the Republic, in KOTOR Canderous says that the Mandalorians were outnumbered 5 to 1 in the Mandalorian Wars.

 

So the Mandalorians never had an advantage over the Republic by numbers, just Skill.

 

Also I believe Canderous says that Malachor V was the last battle of the War.

[Drakron]

For god sake ...

 

Malachor V is a TSL creation, its NEVER mentioned in KotOR and Canderous never said exactly were Revan killed Mandalore.

 

Again the war ended with Revan killing Mandalore and since Revan never set a foot in Malachor V as far we know (Kreia is -again- wrong, the Republic knew exactly were Korriban was located because it happened to be the place the Republic found the Sith Empire and so would Revan).

[Darth Nuke]

For god sake ...

 

Malachor V is a TSL creation, its NEVER mentioned in KotOR and Canderous never said exactly were Revan killed Mandalore.

 

Again the war ended with Revan killing Mandalore and since Revan never set a foot in Malachor V as far we know (Kreia is -again- wrong, the Republic knew exactly were Korriban was located because it happened to be the place the Republic found the Sith Empire and so would Revan).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

By friend, are you on a new form of crack? Malachor was indeed created in KOTOR, and mentioned by Canderous in his war stories. And mentioned as the last battle of the war to note.

 

and according to KOTOR, Revan was at Malachor. Canderous says that Revans and Mandalores fleet clashed there, and the Revan faught them to a stand still, and pushed them back.

 

I just played KOTOR recently and I always listen to Canderous stories very carefully.

[grphiw]

My thoughts are that the battle was staged, but not the actual method.  Revan was striking simultaneously on another front, and Exile was charged with the responsibility of closing the trap and winning at Malachor.  Losing was not an option.  The gravity generator was a device that Bao-Dur had cooked up, but Revan may not have known of it, and neither Bao nor Exile wanted to use it.  So in that respect, I think it was a last-ditch resort.  It was that, or fail.  That made it Exile and Bao-Dur's choice alone, and when they saw and felt what they'd done, neither of them could live with it..

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I agree with the multi-front war. I doubt Revan would have had his fleet gathered in one place, as it would have been too inefficient with the usage of time against the Mandalorians. Revan would have had to split up the fleet into divisions, just as all military branches are, and each division would be sent on a specific task. Divisions may cooperate, but they are essentially their own units.

 

The Exile obviously was in charge of a division fighting on the ground, as the Exile carries the title of General, not Admiral, implying the Exile does not command ships. The account Bao Dur gives makes it sound like the Republic division was not hunting or trying to lure the Mandalorians in, but rather the battle was incidental, like a Mandalorian encounter or ambush on the Republic fleet.

 

Now here is where the real speculation begins, based on the information above. Bao Dur mentions that the Republic fleet was loing badly as the Mandalorians really tore into them. The Exile was not in command of a ship despite the reference of being on the command deck, but still held some power on the ship to have access to such a vital part of the ship. My speculation is that Bao Dur created the Mass Shadow Generator, some gravitaional based weapon, as a prototype or first iteration device that was not fully tested. That is why the command to use it came so late in the battle. The Exile, as a general, was placed in charge of the Mass Shadow Generator and its protection; that is why the MSG terminals are located in the crashed hulls of Republic ships. Wwhen the battle was about to go to the Mandalorians, the Exile sees no other choice but to use an experimental weapon. That is why the Exile is deaf to the force: the resulting death was overwhelming and would have killed a Jedi that was not fortunate enought to be deafened. If the Exile knew the full extent of the weaopn, then the Exile might have closed him/herself off from the force to avoid being deafened or killed.

[Plano Skywalker]

I don't know if this has already been discussed but I remember Kreia talking to Mandalore on Dxun and she stated something to the effect of "he betrayed you". If you stated that Revan was female, Kreia tells Mandalore "she betrayed you".

 

Then, Mandalore asked incredulously "how did you know that?"

 

It is obvious that Revan "betrayed" Canderous. But how? And when? Surely, it must have been before KOTOR I. And it really would not have made sense to betray him during the Jedi Civil War. So, it would seem that it had to have been before or during the Mandalorian Wars.

 

Perhaps it was Revan who goaded the Mandalorians into attacking the Republic and not the True Sith? Perhaps Revan was a puppet of the True Sith at that time.

 

There was also mention (I believe on KOTOR II's loading screens) that Malachor V was a very superstitious place for Maldalorians and that Revan used that to his advantage against them.

 

I think it was Revan who approached the Mandalorians and asked them to go to war.

[Jedi Master D Murda]

@kalimeeri: it depends on if you buy HK-47's interpretation of Malachor V or not. If you do, then Revan intended to lose that portion of own fleet there. Though perhaps he didn't know about the MSG, and taking out the Mandalorians was a bonus.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Prepared to lose them, yes. I wouldn't say he intended to. Malachor was all-or-nothing for the Jedi on the surface (and Mandalorians) but the ones who were doing the bombarding were already perceived to be on his side. All Revan cared about was that they were successful, turning Jedi to his cause or killing the ones who wouldn't.

 

Revan didn't want Exile to die. He argued with Malak about it, when Malak wanted to kill Exile for turning away afterward.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I think Revan intended to lose some or most of the troops at Malachor V. HK says that Revan was "cleaning house" in that final battle. Those who did not die there became Revan's loyal followers, save one... The Exile, who did not die or join Revan.

 

And where did you get that stuff about Revan not wanting the Exile to die, from what HK says Revan wasn't too fond of the Exile because he felt his strong ability to form bonds would be his downfall.

 

Here's my best guess as to the timeline of the wars:

 

1) Mandalorians invade outer rim republic worlds.

2) Debates begin among the Jedi how to respond.  Revan tries to marshall the Jedi to war, fails, then strikes out on his own with whomever will follow him.

3) By the time that Revan gets organized and joins the war in force, the Mandalorians have already scored many significant victories, capturing resources & destroying lots of republic forces.

4) Revan joins the fight, and gradually turns the tide and begins pushing the Mandalorians back.  The Mandalorians still have advantages in terms of troop numbers & quality, but Revan's superior strategies tips the balance in favor of the Republic.

5) Decisive battle at Malachor V (may be only one of a few decisive battles).  Mandalorians mass their troops (given that they still have advantages in superior forces) and so doing try to use that advantage to overcome Revan's superior strategy.  Revan counters this by using the mass-shadow generator, thus in one stroke wiping out the bulk of the Mandalorian forces.  Given that the mass-shadow generator is the key weapon, Revan only needs to send a large enough fleet to draw the Mandalorian fleet into battle, but doesn't need to send a fleet that could actually win.  This fleet had to be sacrificed for the plan to work.  TSL implies that Revan picked part of the fleet with dubious loyalty to him to sacrifice.  Though he may not have been full DS at this time, just Kreia-style ruthless neutral jedi.

 

So the Republic forces were key to the war (part #4, and as a lure in part #5), but without Revan the Republic would have lost.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Somewhere in your list you would have to mention Revan's discovery of the Star Maps and Star Forge.

 

Its really sad that Star Wars has turned to discussions like this

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Hey man, lay off. This is a great discussion.

For god sake ...

 

Malachor V is a TSL creation, its NEVER mentioned in KotOR and Canderous never said exactly were Revan killed Mandalore.

 

Again the war ended with Revan killing Mandalore and since Revan never set a foot in Malachor V as far we know (Kreia is -again- wrong, the Republic knew exactly were Korriban was located because it happened to be the place the Republic found the Sith Empire and so would Revan).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Malachor V was mentioned in K1 when Mandalore tells you that he still remembers that final battle above Malachor V when both fleets blocked out the stars themself.

 

For god sake ...

 

Malachor V is a TSL creation, its NEVER mentioned in KotOR and Canderous never said exactly were Revan killed Mandalore.

 

Again the war ended with Revan killing Mandalore and since Revan never set a foot in Malachor V as far we know (Kreia is -again- wrong, the Republic knew exactly were Korriban was located because it happened to be the place the Republic found the Sith Empire and so would Revan).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

By friend, are you on a new form of crack? Malachor was indeed created in KOTOR, and mentioned by Canderous in his war stories. And mentioned as the last battle of the war to note.

 

and according to KOTOR, Revan was at Malachor. Canderous says that Revans and Mandalores fleet clashed there, and the Revan faught them to a stand still, and pushed them back.

 

I just played KOTOR recently and I always listen to Canderous stories very carefully.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I did listen to him clearly too. Especially after playing K2.

 

I don't know if this has already been discussed but I remember Kreia talking to Mandalore on Dxun and she stated something to the effect of "he betrayed you".  If you stated that Revan was female, Kreia tells Mandalore "she betrayed you".

 

Then, Mandalore asked incredulously "how did you know that?"

 

It is obvious that Revan "betrayed" Canderous.  But how?  And when?  Surely, it must have been before KOTOR I.  And it really would not have made sense to betray him during the Jedi Civil War.  So, it would seem that it had to have been before or during the Mandalorian Wars.

 

Perhaps it was Revan who goaded the Mandalorians into attacking the Republic and not the True Sith?  Perhaps Revan was a puppet of the True Sith at that time.

 

There was also mention (I believe on KOTOR II's loading screens) that Malachor V was a very superstitious place for Maldalorians and that Revan used that to his advantage against them.

 

I think it was Revan who approached the Mandalorians and asked them to go to war.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I think you get that "betray" stuff when you say Revan was DS. Basically after K1 Revan and Mandalore traveled together, when Revan sets off to go to the Outer Rim to fight the "True Sith" Canderous asks to go with him or her, Revan takes out his lightsaber and beats Canderous down, this is DS by the way, to make sure he is not followed and Canderous wants to reunite the clans to get revenge on Revan. But if Revan was LS Revan gives Mandalore the order to reunite the clans and get them ready for when he returns.