Force Mastery: The Path of Neutrality

[curimi]

Throughout TSL we could always hear Kreia's gibbering about neither the Dark side nor the Light side surpass each other, we should learn to deal with things around us with a more cautious way; however the truth is, the players are forced by the set rule of the game to choose between Dark and Light so that they could get some bonus on their attributes and points costed when they use Force techniques. If you choose to walk the path of Neutrality, you will get no +3 bonus on one of your attributes, no half discount (for a Jedi Master/Sith Lord) on Force techniques of either side, and an inferior (literally not-so-cool) character figure surrounded by gray dingy haze in the status screen; moreover, no special endings were made for neutral players both in KotOR and KotOR II. You got the same ending whether your affinity with Light/Dark was 1% or 100%. Considering so much emphases were put into the joint strength of both sides of the Force in the game, the path of Neutrality should get as much attention as the path of Dark or Light as well.

 

So if there is going to be a K3, and if Obsidian is going to continue the story, then I would like to expect that there will be at least three endings in the game. Neither the pure Light side ending nor the pure Dark side ending are satisfactory; you might have to sacrifice your corporal self to save the galaxy if you walk the ultimate path of Light, or, if you walk the pure path of Dark, your body will ultimately gain immortality but your spirit and humanity totally consumed and become the fodder of greater evil. Only if you walk the path of Neutrality will you complete your destined mission and bring true Harmony and Balance to the Universe, with yourself intact. But some restrictions shall be applied; for example, the players have to gain certain amount of Light side points and Dark side points along their journey, and their final affinity with the Force have to fall within a certain range like -10%~10%; more, the players have to choose certain dialogue options in their conversation with certain NPCs and complete certain quests with certain means so that their own characters will finally become truly unterstanding the knowledge of the Balance of the Force and can utilize this newly-gained wisdom to aid their own need, probably immediately before the final confrontaion. Although comparing to those who walk Light or Dark, you will not enjoy the beneficial bonus during most of your journey, but when the true face of the Force is finally unveiled upon you, the effect will be staggering:

 

1) You will get different dialogue options with several NPCs during the endgame sequence and hence a different and more satisfactory ending.

 

2) You will suddenly come to realize all the possibilities within the Force itself and all the Force techniques and forms provided in the game will become availabe to you, plus a 75% discount in Force points costed for every technique.

 

3) You will get rid of that gray haze figure all in a sudden; instead you will get a figure with the stance and gesture much like that of a Confucianism scholar. The background Force pattern might show something that could give a feeling of Balance or Concordance, resemblance to Yin-Yang

or the Changing Sea of Tranquility .

(Image thanks to eHarrisHome and Vene nel marmo)

 

4) You will get a bonus in all of your attributes due to your knowledge granted by the Force, like "Force Mastery: All +5", etc. You also will get a huge bonus to your health points, regeneration rate and Force points.

 

These are just a few examples I could come up with at this moment. I think this might prove to be fair for those who do not bias their path to extreme Light or extreme Dark, and will force other players to really take their choices with seriousness instead of just choosing options which looks like the best or which looks like the worse. These are just a few thoughts derived from Kreia's (or should I say MCA's? ) philosophy in TSL.

 

Finally I hope there is still a chance to hear Kreia's voice through the Force in K3. She is a profound one, indeed. Again all these is under the hypothesis that if there is going to be a K3 and if Obsidian is going to continue the story .

[DeathScepter]

those are good ideas.

 

I like them

[Azure79]

This might be too many possibilites the devs will have to account for. Besides all the combinations of the two previous games, they'll have to take the neutral path into account as well.

 

Your idea is good, though I think a bit too overpowered.

[Revan Si-Darlo]

Actually... sorry to break it to you, but unlike everyone else here I don't think that's a good idea. It is interesting though, I'll grant you that, but it would never work for several reasons you haven't taken into accunt.

 

First of all, yes it adds more complexity like Azure said but there's much more to it than that. First of all, neutral people tend to be boring. I've never liked Daoism which is pretty apathetic. I don't like extremes but simply treading the middle ground is worse.

 

Ironically, it was Kreia who said "apathy is death".

 

More importantly, I've already explained in the "How did it start?" thread that the dark side and light side cannot peacefully coexist in one being. In the end you have to accept one or the other. Some would point to Kreia and Jolee as examples that neutrality does work but they're not really.

 

Take Jolee. After the Great Sith War he abandoned the Order because he was convinced that they were too forgiving for his crimes. He blamed himself for the deaths of dozens of Jedi who fell to his wife. He wanted to be punished. And, so his bitterness slowly fed the darkness within him. He did not fall however because he did not embrace his resentment and self-doubt and instead found a new cause in the Wookiees and later in Revan. He was as close to being neutral really as is possible without falling to the dark side.

 

Now look at Kreia. After Sion and Nihilus ripped the Force from her she wandered the galaxy, once again filled with the self-doubt that had filled her when her apprentice Revan had fallen to the dark side (look in the Chronicles). Now she was unsure whether the answer to her questions and doubt lay in the dark side and began to become more inwardly. She returned to her nature, her belief in chaos over order, opportunism over compassion. None of these qualities are in themselves evil.

 

However, she also lost trust in others thanks to her experience with betrayal and so became more concerned with her existence than that of others... that is... until she met the Exile. As a result she acts selfishly, cruelly, and decievingly. These qualities can be, to a small extent, considered small evils. She was therefore as close to neutral as is possible without being redeemed.

[Azure79]

I don't think the original poster was refering to apathy when he said neutrality but more in terms of balance.

 

However I think balance is more a part of the light side of the force rather than a entirely different aspect of the Force. The lightside does seek harmony over destruction after all.

[curimi]

I don't think the original poster was refering to apathy when he said neutrality but more in terms of balance.

 

However I think balance is more a part of the light side of the force rather than a entirely different aspect of the Force. The lightside does seek harmony over destruction after all.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yeah, for what I know Taoism is not linked to apathy.

 

I was only sharing some of my thoughts after I completed the game. The point is there should be at least a third path other than Light or Dark. I believe the dialogue tree needed will not be more complex than that of TSL; basically the devs already gave three directions in the dialogue options of the game, which are Light, Dark, and Trigger-happy. So you see a third ending is not impossible at all.

[curimi]

Actually... sorry to break it to you, but unlike everyone else here I don't think that's a good idea. It is interesting though, I'll grant you that, but it would never work for several reasons you haven't taken into accunt.

 

Thanks for the comment. But I do believe the two sides of the Force can coexist, given the fact they are just like two sides of a coin. "The Force is like an ocean, equal parts turbulence and tranquility." That was the best description of the Force I have ever heard of. But after all it is those who are going to write K3 have the power to decide the flow of the history. I just hope some of them will happen to see this and decide to adapt some of my aspects.

[Sepp]

1) I've never liked Daoism which is pretty apathetic. 2)I don't like extremes but simply treading the middle ground is worse.

 

Ironically, it was Kreia who said "apathy is death".

 

3) More importantly, I've already explained in the "How did it start?" thread that the dark side and light side cannot peacefully coexist in one being. In the end you have to accept one or the other. Some would point to Kreia and Jolee as examples that neutrality does work but they're not really.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

1) That's like saying you don't like the Christian faith because of the Crusades. A kind of misinterpretation, or common misconception.

 

2) If you say so. The middle ground is not necessarily apathy, however.

 

3) Bold statements. You would hate The New Jedi Order book series then. Especially Traitor. Sure, it's not like George Lucas wrote it or anything and the guys, especially the Traitor author might just have been bull****ting everyone. Would explain why he has been hired for the Episode III novelization.

[Redmen]

Well as far as i know the only advantiage of being GS (grey side) is that you can wear Jole Bindos robe which is the only item restricted to grey

[Objulen]

These are good notions, however, they aren't likely to be implemented. Star Wars is very dualistic -- there's the light side and the dark side, and nothing really in between. D&D has set the stereotype even further, since neutrals are generally on the side of good, occasionally on the side of evil, but almost never in their own little enclaves, and even when they are, they are either labeled good or evil. This sort of moral ambiguity simply doesn't have a foot hold in Star Wars; it's a enough of stretch for the setting to even consider that the Dark Side might not be an unnatural horror. Considering that the Light and Dark Side might be used together in harmony goes beyond the pale of Star Wars' hard-line dualism.

[Revan Si-Darlo]

Thanks for the comment. But I do believe the two sides of the Force can coexist, given the fact they are just like two sides of a coin. "The Force is like an ocean, equal parts turbulence and tranquility." That was the best description of the Force I have ever heard of. But after all it is those who are going to write K3 have the power to decide the flow of the history. I just hope some of them will happen to see this and decide to adapt some of my aspects.

 

*sigh*... Must I bring up the story of Dooku's fall again? Or Ulic's for that matter? The two can't be balanced. Like I said, you can get close, but there is no neutral balance.

 

Besides, it's just not in human nature.

 

1) That's like saying you don't like the Christian faith because of the Crusades. A kind of misinterpretation, or common misconception.

 

I never really thought of Daoism as apathetic until recently, when I read some of Lao Tzu's works. They talk about how you cannot try to change the world for the better or fight against evil because in the end, you'll only worsen things.

 

If that's not apathetic I don't know what it is. It's not intentionally apathetic, surely, but it is apathetic.

 

) If you say so. The middle ground is not necessarily apathy, however.

 

Yes, it is. If you don't take sides at all, not even subconsciously, than you are apathetic. That's the definition, uncaring.

 

) Bold statements. You would hate The New Jedi Order book series then. Especially Traitor. Sure, it's not like George Lucas wrote it or anything and the guys, especially the Traitor author might just have been bull****ting everyone. Would explain why he has been hired for the Episode III novelization

 

Actually, I really like the NJO books. I've read several (though not close to all) and am looking forward to the next one.

 

And if you ask me neither Luke nor Kyp Durron are looking for "neutral ground". They're simply looking for different ways to serve the light, even if one or the other might be wrong.

[Lord Zacarus]

I think a grey jedi is like a man without a country he has no one to back him up

[SW fan]

Throughout TSL we could always hear Kreia's gibbering about neither the Dark side nor the Light side surpass each other, we should learn to deal with things around us with a more cautious way; however the truth is, the players are forced by the set rule of the game to choose between Dark and Light so that they could get some bonus on their attributes and points costed when they use Force techniques. If you choose to walk the path of Neutrality, you will get no +3 bonus on one of your attributes, no half discount (for a Jedi Master/Sith Lord) on Force techniques of either side, and an inferior (literally not-so-cool) character figure surrounded by gray dingy haze in the status screen; moreover, no special endings were made for neutral players both in KotOR and KotOR II. You got the same ending whether your affinity with Light/Dark was 1% or 100%. Considering so much emphases were put into the joint strength of both sides of the Force in the game, the path of Neutrality should get as much attention as the path of Dark or Light as well.

 

So if there is going to be a K3, and if Obsidian is going to continue the story, then I would like to expect that there will be at least three endings in the game. Neither the pure Light side ending nor the pure Dark side ending are satisfactory; you might have to sacrifice your corporal self to save the galaxy if you walk the ultimate path of Light, or, if you walk the pure path of Dark, your body will ultimately gain immortality but your spirit and humanity totally consumed and become the fodder of greater evil. Only if you walk the path of Neutrality will you complete your destined mission and bring true Harmony and Balance to the Universe, with yourself intact. But some restrictions shall be applied; for example, the players have to gain certain amount of Light side points and Dark side points along their journey, and their final affinity with the Force have to fall within a certain range like -10%~10%; more, the players have to choose certain dialogue options in their conversation with certain NPCs and complete certain quests with certain means so that their own characters will finally become truly unterstanding the knowledge of the Balance of the Force and can utilize this newly-gained wisdom to aid their own need, probably immediately before the final confrontaion. Although comparing to those who walk Light or Dark, you will not enjoy the beneficial bonus during most of your journey, but when the true face of the Force is finally unveiled upon you, the effect will be staggering:

 

1) You will get different dialogue options with several NPCs during the endgame sequence and hence a different and more satisfactory ending.

 

2) You will suddenly come to realize all the possibilities within the Force itself and all the Force techniques and forms provided in the game will become availabe to you, plus a 75% discount in Force points costed for every technique.

 

3) You will get rid of that gray haze figure all in a sudden; instead you will get a figure with the stance and gesture much like that of a Confucianism scholar. The background Force pattern might show something that could give a feeling of Balance or Concordance, resemblance to Yin-Yang

or the Changing Sea of Tranquility .

(Image thanks to eHarrisHome and Vene nel marmo)

 

4) You will get a bonus in all of your attributes due to your knowledge granted by the Force, like "Force Mastery: All +5", etc. You also will get a huge bonus to your health points, regeneration rate and Force points.

 

These are just a few examples I could come up with at this moment. I think this might prove to be fair for those who do not bias their path to extreme Light or extreme Dark, and will force other players to really take their choices with seriousness instead of just choosing options which looks like the best or which looks like the worse. These are just a few thoughts derived from Kreia's (or should I say MCA's? ) philosophy in TSL.

 

Finally I hope there is still a chance to hear Kreia's voice through the Force in K3. She is a profound one, indeed. Again all these is under the hypothesis that if there is going to be a K3 and if Obsidian is going to continue the story .

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

 

you my friend need a girlfriend and a life

[Laozi]

you my friend need a girlfriend and a life

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

 

You seem like you may need a little more attention from your parents

[Sepp]

I never really thought of Daoism as apathetic until recently, when I read some of Lao Tzu's works. They talk about how you cannot try to change the world for the better or fight against evil because in the end, you'll only worsen things.

 

If that's not apathetic I don't know what it is. It's not intentionally apathetic, surely, but it is apathetic.

Oh, not at all. I can only recommend Steven Mitchell's translation/interpretation of the Tao Te Ching. You could also read it online, but you'd miss the introduction and comments such as:

 

"[...] The misperception may arise from his insistence on wei wu wei, literally "doing not-doing," which has been seen as passivity. Nothing could be further from the truth.

 

A good athlete can enter a state of body-awareness in which the right stroke or the right movement happens by itself, effortlessly, without any interference of the conscious will. This is a paradigm for non-action: the purest and most effective form of action. The game plays the game; the poeom writes the poem; we can't tell the dancer from the dance. [You will find that many times in Star Wars (Luke destroying Death Star I, for instance.]"

 

As for the improving the world thing from Chapter 29 - it's not meant in the sense that you should just sit there and watch since everything's all right. It is written against the urge to take things into your own hands and "improve" the world by controlling what happens. Without spoiling great surprises: If you ever reach the end of the New Jedi Order series, a prominent character will for a time come to an (unusually high) state of attunement to the Force (and thus everything) and has in his reach the effortless power to "right all wrongs" ... and doesn't.

 

You will find inside the Tao Te Ching many instances where it is said that "the Master" makes use of any situation and all things. Not for a "good goal" like a random "hero" might drag the world from the "dark," push it through the door into the "light" and then start a vain attempt to keep it there, locked up tight - "the Master" would 'merely' show the world the door to a 'better' way and leave it up to the world to listen to him/her or ignore him/her. For example. XD

 

 

Yes, it is. If you don't take sides at all, not even subconsciously, than you are apathetic. That's the definition, uncaring.

? We do not even have to look far to see examples of going neither uber-light nor dark without falling into apathy. You say Kreia wants the Exile to act kinda neutral, usually - if somebody offers you money you should (in order to make her happy) not take it and kill the guy (dark) nor deny the reward (light) but take it (neutral), for example. Not that I would necessarily agree with that or see it that way, but that's apathy? I think not.

 

 

Actually, I really like the NJO books. I've read several (though not close to all) and am looking forward to the next one.

You can look forward to Traitor then. Though I'm afraid you will hate it. Without spoilering too much, there's a character claiming something like "the Force is one," without inherent sides and, well, while this is of course open to interpretation the rest of the series does more to support that person's ideas than discredit them. You even have prominent Good Guy utilizing *oh my god dark side!?!?* Force Lightning and stuff. But you'll find out on your own. ^_^'

 

 

And if you ask me neither Luke nor Kyp Durron are looking for "neutral ground". They're simply looking for different ways to serve the light, even if one or the other might be wrong.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yup. Luke falls pretty much into apathy for half of the series because he's not sure what to make of the threat and is afraid of what the threat's apparent absence in the Force might mean for the Jedi Order - he's doing nothing too "good" with that attitude. Kyp on the other hand is (up until later in the series [yes, he actually develops!]) how he's always been, and kind of "wrong" in that too.

[Revan Si-Darlo]

Oh, not at all. I can only recommend Steven Mitchell's translation/interpretation of the Tao Te Ching. You could also read it online, but you'd miss the introduction and comments such as:

 

"[...] The misperception may arise from his insistence on wei wu wei, literally "doing not-doing," which has been seen as passivity. Nothing could be further from the truth.

 

A good athlete can enter a state of body-awareness in which the right stroke or the right movement happens by itself, effortlessly, without any interference of the conscious will. This is a paradigm for non-action: the purest and most effective form of action. The game plays the game; the poeom writes the poem; we can't tell the dancer from the dance. [You will find that many times in Star Wars (Luke destroying Death Star I, for instance.]"

 

As for the improving the world thing from Chapter 29 - it's not meant in the sense that you should just sit there and watch since everything's all right. It is written against the urge to take things into your own hands and "improve" the world by controlling what happens. Without spoiling great surprises: If you ever reach the end of the New Jedi Order series, a prominent character will for a time come to an (unusually high) state of attunement to the Force (and thus everything) and has in his reach the effortless power to "right all wrongs" ... and doesn't.

 

You will find inside the Tao Te Ching many instances where it is said that "the Master" makes use of any situation and all things. Not for a "good goal" like a random "hero" might drag the world from the "dark," push it through the door into the "light" and then start a vain attempt to keep it there, locked up tight - "the Master" would 'merely' show the world the door to a 'better' way and leave it up to the world to listen to him/her or ignore him/her. For example. XD

I will say now I haven't read Tao Te Ching, but I have read some of Lao Tzu and while again, I disagree with extremes, simply taking neutral ground is, not caring which extreme triumphs is apathetic. This stuff about athletes is just distracting, and diverges from the common point.

 

You don't even seem to disagree with me as you are not suggesting true neutrality, merely mostly neutral which is a lot different and either qualifies as good or evil. True neutral would be an instance where either you first do something evil and then do something good of equal importance, or you simply do nothing at all, hence having no impact at all. Both of these ideas are if anything, idealogical zeniths unachievable by a human and in my eye, unattractive. Its againts human nature to do either.

 

Humans either based on their own feelings, memories, experience, and personality either leans towards good or evil. Now, I'll admit, true evil is hard to come by. Most people who are "evil" either believe they're doing the right thing or are downright insane... or both. That doesn't mean they're neutral.

 

? We do not even have to look far to see examples of going neither uber-light nor dark without falling into apathy. You say Kreia wants the Exile to act kinda neutral, usually - if somebody offers you money you should (in order to make her happy) not take it and kill the guy (dark) nor deny the reward (light) but take it (neutral), for example. Not that I would necessarily agree with that or see it that way, but that's apathy? I think not.

 

You said I said she was trying to be neutral. I didn't. I said she's trying to turn light (either that or decieve the Exile). She's smart and opportunistic, but not neutral. First of all, she's either trying to redeem herself or stay undercover, take your pick. Both make her more cautious and less evil towards those she meets. She thinks its petty of you to deny rewards because A) You're being stupid not to take money (at least in her mind) and B) She feels from her perspective that you are also effectively spoiling the guy.

 

Out of those, A is apathetic, it suggest you should remain in your shell and forget about the outside world one way or another, simply get what you need and pretend everyone else doesn't exist. That's apathetic. It's neutral. However, B, is a very strange and irregular form of light sided thinking. It wants good for people, though her idea of how to make things better is somewhat unorthodox. It is not apathetic. But it is not neutral either.

 

You can look forward to Traitor then. Though I'm afraid you will hate it. Without spoilering too much, there's a character claiming something like "the Force is one," without inherent sides and, well, while this is of course open to interpretation the rest of the series does more to support that person's ideas than discredit them. You even have prominent Good Guy utilizing *oh my god dark side!?!?* Force Lightning and stuff. But you'll find out on your own. ^_^'

 

It's not that I hate anybody who thinks neutrality is a valid path. I don't. I simply think you're wrong and if there is a character claiming something like "the Force is one" then I'll disagree with him, not hate him.

 

The fact that you can use dark side powers as a light sider in KOTOR, TSL, JK2, and JA is because it's fun that way. People like the idea of using Force Lightning or Force Grip on opponents. It's fun to imagine having that kind of power and it adds a little cinematic fun. However, everything outside of these games suggests it is impossible to blend these powers.

 

Once again... the story of Dooku's fall anyone?

 

Yup. Luke falls pretty much into apathy for half of the series because he's not sure what to make of the threat and is afraid of what the threat's apparent absence in the Force might mean for the Jedi Order - he's doing nothing too "good" with that attitude. Kyp on the other hand is (up until later in the series [yes, he actually develops!]) how he's always been, and kind of "wrong" in that too.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well, I'll admit, Luke is seeking a more apathetic ground, but it's not neutral. True neutrality is apathetic but apathy does not just apply to neutrality. They are not one and the same. Luke's apathy is mostly out of caution and fear. Essentially, he's worried about his people and the galaxy and what they'll do to one another if he let's them out. He wants to do good things but he's uncertain.

 

Kyp is another extreme. In fact, if you want to take the D&D system, which does I admit have two neutrals but these neutral people are once again opportunistic and apathetic, caring only for themselves, there is Lawful and Chaotic as well as Good and Evil. At this point you could say Luke is a Lawful Good and Kyp a Chaotic Good.

 

Kyp wants to be aggressive for several reasons, vengeance and redemption for his past deeds both being some of them. But he's not seeking neutral ground either and he's not intentionally seeking evil though he does wish to do harm to the Vong. Kyp could potentially fall to the dark side though I don't think he will and is in fact dangerously close to doing so because of his uncontrolled feelings. This doesn't mean his basic principles are wrong.

 

Understand that I too think the extremes and trying to control the fate of any one world even is impossible. I don't think perfect light is possible or perfect darkness. But I also don't think you're really talking about neutrality on a terms of good and evil, but possibly a good leaning towards some neutrality, a low key good.

 

And once again, my main problem with this is that we already know that canonically speaking the Force has only two very opposite poles and that there is really no neutral ground. The powers considered "neutral" can really be used both ways, dark and light, that doesn't mean they have their own domain within the Force.

 

See some of my earlier posts (if you can find them) about the Force sort of having two different souls.

[Laozi]

I will say now I haven't read Tao Te Ching, but I have read some of Lao Tzu and while again, I disagree with extremes, simply taking neutral ground is, not caring which extreme triumphs is apathetic. This stuff about athletes is just distracting, and diverges from the common point.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

 

Tao Te Ching is the only thing that Lao Tzu wrote. He spent the remainder of his life in seclusion. And "the way" can be seen in many different lights, but I've alway seen it as being able to alieviate yourself from the black and white judgements that our minds try to inflict on the world around us.

[The Great Phantom]

Well, I'm saying one thing. I'm not sure if this is what is being addressed or not, but:

 

THERE IS NO 'PATH OF NEUTRALITY!'

 

You either serve Light or Dark. Jolee served Light. Kreia (despite all of her words) served the Dark. If you try to walk in between, then you fall to either side at one point, or you favor one over the other. Unfortunately, this is more likely than not, the Dark, with all the promises of being 'set free,' etc.

[Ulicus]

And once again, my main problem with this is that we already know that canonically speaking the Force has only two very opposite poles and that there is really no neutral ground. The powers considered "neutral" can really be used both ways, dark and light, that doesn't mean they have their own domain within the Force.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well, canonically speaking I'd say you only have The Force and its Dark Side. Whether they're "polar opposites" is up to debate.

 

I've always seen the Force as being like a person, who's usually calm and caring but has a "dark side".

 

I mean, you say a person has a dark-side, but never a "light-side". A funny side perhaps, a caring side maybe but never a "Light-side", though they might be light-hearted

 

Simply put, there isn't a clearly defined light side in the same way there is a clearly defined dark side... you'll never find the words "Light side" in a Star Wars movie, the closest you get is "good side" from the talented, but naive, Luke.

 

After all, if it was a case of "light vs dark" then how would destroying the dark side (in the form of the Sith anyhow...) bring "balance" to the Force?

 

The Force is like a body and the dark side is like a cancer. That's all there is to it.

I suppose, you could argue that I've not dismissed the Light Side, that I'm merely calling it "the Force". I can see the logic there... I just, bah. I dunno.

 

I guess that's valid but the point I'm trying to make is that whilst the dark-side has a definition and *should*, being rooted in the very material, selfish desires of living beings, the Force doesn't. The Force transcends this.

 

In contrast, a "light side" is just as pigeon-holed as the "dark side"...

 

I think this excerpt Star Wars novel puts it best:

 

"You sense only a part of the Force, Darth." Kenobi mumured with the assurance of one to whom death is merely another sensation, like sleeing or making love or touching a candle.  "As always, you percieve its reality as little as a utensil percieves the taste of food."

 

Perhaps its not the best of sources, I just find it to sum up what I'm saying pretty accurately.

 

- Oh and can I just take the moment to clarify that I definately don't think there is a "neutral" path... like a "neutral side" or any such thing, Star Wars is clearly "good vs evil" (and should be, even though I'm ok with a few shades of grey, as long as they fall into one camp or the other) - I just like to think that the good guys are tapping into a mystical energy field beyond their understanding, whilst the bad guys are giving into their anger, rage and selfish desires - feeding and drawing power from the "cancer" of that mystical energy field.

 

"Light-side" is just a term I loathe. I quite like the idea that the new Jedi Order (as in the Jedi Order that comes after the one that was devastated in KotOR, not the NEW Jedi Order from the NJO novels) will adopt the position I've just outlined- which explains why in KotOR they're saying "light side" whereas in the movies there's no mention of it.

[Notasophist]

The idea of balance is something that's being tossed around with much ignorant misconceptions these days ...

 

For an example, good/evil should not apply to the taoist (ying-yang) philosophy. If balance is something to be strived for (or virtuous), then by neccessity

balance = good.

 

The idea of balance as virtue only works when the two opposites are good/neutral but lacking or:

 

when both sides are considered bad/harmful when one is stronger then the other(this seems to be the taoist philosophy and chinese medicine.)

This idea of balance in nerd culture, in my opinion, is best reflected in Origin's Serpent Isle, where chaos and order become undersirable or "evil" when stripped from each other.

 

If the lightside is the absolute good, and darkside bad, then striving for balance between good and evil would be rather...idiotic.

[The Great Phantom]

The Jedi seek balance, while the Sith seek ultimate power. As most of us hopefully know, if one side of any scale is a thousand pounds heavier than the other, the scale's going to break. This is seen with the Sith. If the Sith lived 'in peace' w/ the Force, then the galaxy would be fine. But they don't. They want to control it, and everything else.

 

I think if it were JUST the Jedi, then it would be 'balanced', but the Force has 2 'sides'. THIS DOES NOT MEAN THERE IS NO GREY!!!! Grey is still either light or dark!

 

IMHO, the Dark Side is like the Force's 'evil twin', but on a much grander and incomprehensible scale. They're part of a whole, however. The original Jedi Order (with love and all that) recognized both sides, but strove balance through serving the LS. Then someone came along and found that by giving into baser emotions, power was gained much quicker, but it also threw things into imbalance.

 

Just my opinions. :ph34r: