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How did it start?


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I always wonder how the order first started. Was ther a order on one planet before the hyperspace was found and developed on that planet before traveling the galaxy.

or was the first jedi order came from group who stood up to the Rakata? Or was it noble Rakata that made the order and took in slaves adapt to the force? How close was the teaching of the order to the sith when it started?

 

Somebody told me the sith empire where 70000+ years old when the KOTOR was made. I really don't know but I think it made up of Rakata.

Maybe that also the danger in the unknown rim is the Rakata where regaining their connection to the force and what to build the empire again.

 

So what came first the sith or the jedi?

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...

Somebody told me the sith empire where 70000+ years old when the KOTOR was made

...

 

Someone is wrong, the Republic is about 25,000 years old at the time of the prequels.

 

The Jedi Order come about the same time of the Republic, the Sith Empire was formed after by former Jedi.

 

The only thing older that the Republic is, oddly enough, the Hutts that ruled their section of space before the Republic come into existence.

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I dunno much about Expanded Universe but i read somewhere once that the jedi were like some kind of monks or something and and they meditated a lot and after much meditating one of them discovered the force and so jedi order was founded.

 

 

I think a lot of ppl have been confused with this rakata thing, i dont think think they had anything to do with the original jedi order and sith empire. I think they were force sensitives who by thier warliek and aggressive nature became sntangled in the dark side.

 

Feel free to correct me if i am wrong.

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I think a lot of ppl have been confused with this rakata thing, i dont think think they had anything to do with the original jedi order and sith empire. I think they were force sensitives who by thier warliek and aggressive nature became sntangled in the dark side.

 

Feel free to correct me if i am wrong.

 

 

That's correct. I have heard the Rakatan empire developed great technology tens of thousands of years before the Republic, and were made up of ten billion Rakata and a trillion slaves. Rakata were even known to defile the bodies of slain enemies by eating them. During their civil war, a plague broke out that was believed from the creation of a slave species which doomed them. They're also responsible for Tatooine's climate change though i'm not sure how.

 

Ahem back to the Jedi order topic... all I know is that it was formed at the time of the Republic, as stated already.

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There still some Rakata walking around.

 

I wonder how much closer to the sith teaching the jedi where when they started.

Its hard to be peaceful if your fighting for your life or until you can live in peace. Who was the first jedi or what where the first force user called?

 

The timeline ok except how humans got into star war. That was just dumb. :p

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The Jedi Order come about the same time of the Republic, the Sith Empire was formed after by former Jedi.

 

That's not how I understood it...

 

As I understood it, those fallen Jedis merely re-discovered the Sith teachings. The original Sith where some odd species, thought to now be extinct - while these new Siths where merely following a bunch of ideals...

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That's not how I understood it...

 

As I understood it, those fallen Jedis merely re-discovered the Sith teachings. The original Sith where some odd species, thought to now be extinct - while these new Siths where merely following a bunch of ideals...

 

 

They didn't re-discover it because... it hadn't even been *di*scovered. 25,000 years before Vader, the order was formed. Some of these Jedi learned the darkside and after a century when they were defeated, they fled to the outer regions where they found the Sith people. The dark jedi inbred with them and that's when the Sith ways began.

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The Jedi Order come about the same time of the Republic, the Sith Empire was formed after by former Jedi.

 

That's not how I understood it...

 

As I understood it, those fallen Jedis merely re-discovered the Sith teachings. The original Sith where some odd species, thought to now be extinct - while these new Siths where merely following a bunch of ideals...

 

The fallen Jedi were the masters and the native Sith people only were their poor slaves. Over the centuries many of them interbred. The name "Sith" remained.

At the time of Kotor their descendants are refered to as "the original Sith".

"Jedi poodoo!" - some displeased Dug

 

S.L.J. said he has already filmed his death scene and was visibly happy that he

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where the jedi always able to use the force? Or was when they where passive that they calmed themselves to hear the force. That would explain why the sith or the darkside didn't come first. The dark side is supposed to be easier to learn because it uses passion which is natural in most people. While the jedi is to repress your feelings which is unnatural for most people and every jedi seems to have problem with. Which means if two force user equal in the force and intelligent and physical.

 

The jedi would be weaker then the sith for most of the time. If the jedi can stay alive then he will become more powerful however its hard to finish a race when your dead.

 

So I like the monk Idea. :devil:

 

Was it always called the jedi order? Where the jedis before the order?

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In the SW universe the ability to "hear"/use the force is a naturally given feature. Only few individuals have it.

But most of them aren't homicidal maniacs. If they were however they wouldn't spawn (natural selection), but kill each other.

 

Therefore I think that the Jedi Order, as well as their knowledge of the force, already had to be there as a birthplace for a future Sith Order.

Basically Sith Lords are nothing more than troubled former Jedi who degenerated (this could be a shocking realisation for some "Darths" here on the forums... :devil: ).

"Jedi poodoo!" - some displeased Dug

 

S.L.J. said he has already filmed his death scene and was visibly happy that he

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Not all sith are not homicidal maniacs. Just the interesting ones are. :D

 

Most sith gain power to make things better for them and the people they care about. Vader didn't start evil but wanted the control to make people do the right thing even by force. Revan was grey and used the sith teaching for the goal of good.

 

Most evil people in the world didn't think what they where doing was evil. It was always for the greater good.

 

The sith beliefs seemed what would be needed to create the place where a jedi order could raise. The Republic wouldn't had over credits to the jedi unless the jedi proved themselve or scared the hell out of the Republic. I think a deal had to be made The jedi order gets their money and defend the Republic that is based on greed. How could the jedi support a goverment that went againest their beliefs. The republic did many evil things to gain power. The work with companies that did very bad things. Plus slavery was everywhere.

 

So allowing to have the republic pay the jedi's bills and give them nice temples was very sith like for the jedi don't you think? Plus access to all republic medical records to find force user to bring into the cult. :p

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Not all sith are not homicidal maniacs. Just the interesting ones are. :D

 

Most sith gain power to make things better for them and the people they care about. Vader didn't start evil but wanted the control to make people do the right thing even by force. Revan was grey and used the sith teaching for the goal of good.

Vader was troubled... and that very much. The honorable motives of Master Revan are wild guesses of the fans.

 

Most evil people in the world didn't think what they where doing was evil. It was always for the greater good.
Believe me, they know better...

 

 

The sith beliefs seemed what would be needed to create the place where a jedi order could raise. The Republic wouldn't had over credits to the jedi unless the jedi proved themselve or scared the hell out of the Republic. I think a deal had to be made The jedi order gets their money and defend the Republic that is based on greed. How could the jedi support a goverment that went againest their beliefs. The republic did many evil things to gain power. The work with companies that did very bad things. Plus slavery was everywhere.

So allowing to have the republic pay the jedi's bills and give them nice temples was very sith like for the jedi don't you think?  Plus access to all republic medical records to find force user to bring into the cult. :p

:)

"Jedi poodoo!" - some displeased Dug

 

S.L.J. said he has already filmed his death scene and was visibly happy that he

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Most evil people in the world didn't think what they where doing was evil. It was always for the greater good.
Believe me, they know better...

 

Which isn't true. Many people didn't know better. believed the where guided by something or somebody to do what the did. Be it god's will or the talking dog. They believe they where doing good things. One rule in the bible is they shall not kill. However more bloody wars and death was cause by the same people who claim to follow this teaching. Or take the greatest pacifist of all time jesus christ and look home many people killed in his name. :p Do I think these people where evil no just misguided.

 

I just scared myself its like blaming the force's will when you just had to kill people. :)

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Most evil people in the world didn't think what they where doing was evil. It was always for the greater good.
Believe me, they know better...

 

Which isn't true. Many people didn't know better. believed the where guided by something or somebody to do what the did. Be it god's will or the talking dog. They believe they where doing good things. One rule in the bible is they shall not kill. However more bloody wars and death was cause by the same people who claim to follow this teaching. Or take the greatest pacifist of all time jesus christ and look home many people killed in his name. :p Do I think these people where evil no just misguided.

 

The people who plan and command such acts DO know better. They definitely know why this is good for them and not for a "greater good".

 

Even religious wars have political motives: It is all for power.

 

Generally, the leaders don't believe in their own BS. Believing in a good purpose has always been the role of the naive crowd.

 

 

Back to topic:

 

You can find answers to some of your questions in the offical SW databank:

 

The Jedi Order

The Sith

"Jedi poodoo!" - some displeased Dug

 

S.L.J. said he has already filmed his death scene and was visibly happy that he

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But you need the people to help comment the acts.

 

Yes, you are right, of course.

I thought that we're talking about evil leaders (like Revan was).

"Jedi poodoo!" - some displeased Dug

 

S.L.J. said he has already filmed his death scene and was visibly happy that he

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Being notoriously lazy, I'm assuming that nobody has answered any questions yet. Here's a SW timeline (all years are BBY: Before Battle of Yavin)

 

30,000 BBY: Infinite Empire at its hight

25,000 BBY: Infinite Empire crashes (find another thread for my hypothesis for it :ph34r: ), Republic and the Order form. Nobody knows where the Order formed, but it was made out of 'scholars' that gathered to contemplate it and its uses, as well as learn to use it.

25,000-20,000 BBY: Great Shism, Dark Jedi flee to find the primitive Sith Species on a planet, quickly becoming Overlords.

8,000-5,000- Known Dark Lords rule, Great Hyperspace War. The Sith Empire wasn't wiped out, because the Republic retreated to lick its wounds, so some Sith MAY have survived.

4,000 BBY: Exar Kun comes and kicks butt, but is stopped by thousands of Jedi, only to emerge 4000 years later.

40 Years after the above: Revan and Malak, etc.

 

Well, that's a watered down version of the timeline that I've gathered after years of 'study' :) .

Geekified Star Wars Geek

 

Heart of the Force, Arm of the Force

 

"Only a Sith deals in absolutes!"

-Obi-wan to Anakin (NOT advocating Grey-Jedidom)

 

"The Force doesn't control people, Kreia controls people."

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So allowing to have the republic pay the jedi's bills and give them nice temples was very sith like for the jedi don't you think?  Plus access to all republic medical records to find force user to bring into the cult. :(

Actually the jedi are sworn to live a life of poverty. Thats mainly a reason they where the robes that they do. Even tho in Lucas' movies they have nice temples and everything they have sworn a life of poverty, its a known fact.

Ο κώδικας του sίτΗ

Η ειρήνη είναι ένα ψέμα είναι εκεί μόνο πάθος. Μέσω του πάθους κερδίζω τη δύναμη. Μέσω της δύναμης κερδίζω τη δύναμη. Μέσω της δύναμης κερδίζω τη νίκη. Μέσω της νίκης οι αλυσίδες μου είναι σπασμένες. Η δύναμη θα με απελευθερώσει. Μάθετε αυτό και θα είστε αντάξιοι της παρουσίας μου.

από μηχανής θεός

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Actually the Sith Empire had existed for *some* time before the first dark-Jedi arrived.

 

by the Official Star Wars Fact File

 

The Sith Element

 

It was there that they came across a small cluster of worlds - including the planets Khar Delba and Korriban -that were ruled over by a peaceful speciies called the Sith.  An ancient civilization that predated the Republic by some 75,000 years, the Sith had a deep understanding of the dark side, and had developed their own powerful alchemical magic, which harnessed its power.  Even so, the Dark Jedi that arrived on these Sith worlds quickly came to be regarded as gods.  In turn, these Jedi took advantage of the Sith's reverence by enslaving them and stealing their Sith lore.  For millenia, this civilization was to continue to flourish and grow, largely invisible ot the rest of the Republic.  It would not be until the rise of Naga sadow, some 5,000 years before the Battle of Yavin, that the Sith Lords would re-emerge on the galactic stage.

 

No doubt this "Peaceful" Empire was enslaved by the Rakatta, but once their Infinite Empire fell, they just retook what had formerly been theirs and continued on as normal. After, all - the Rakatan Empire *preceded* the Great Schism, yet they had obviously been enslavers of the Sith species.... since there was a Star Map on Korriban. So it's not too far fetched to think that the Sith Empire existed in some form before the arrival of the first "Sith Lords".

 

As for how the Jedi Order started, there isn't really a fixed beginning.

 

George Lucas originally wrote down (for "The Star Wars") a whole thing about "Jedi Bendu families" and how the founder of the "Jedi Bendu" Order had been "The Skywalker". But that was scrapped. Along with calling the Dark Side "The Bogan" (rotflmao... see? GL had stupid ideas way before Jar Jar!)

 

Then later he resurrected the Skywalker name for his Starkiller character... so who knows? Anakin's "messianic" role might be part of some crazy reincarnation of the "original Skywalker"... I wouldn't put it past the bearded one.

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Not all sith are not homicidal maniacs. Just the interesting ones are. 

 

Most sith gain power to make things better for them and the people they care about. Vader didn't start evil but wanted the control to make people do the right thing even by force. Revan was grey and used the sith teaching for the goal of good.

 

I hat to say it but you're a little too trusting of the Sith and seem to have little understanding of the dark side.

 

Let's see... a good comparison to the dark side is the One Ring in LOTR (wouldn't be suprised if that was an influence on Lucas' writing). The Force, dark and light, both have almost a soul. They have no real consciousness but they have various desires and fears.

 

The light side embraces kindness, healing, protection, caution. The dark side embraces cruelty, pain, death, and recklessness. They are two poles of the Force. You cannot use one without being influenced by these qualities. Unlike in the KOTOR and Dark Forces/Jedi Knight series you cannot for example use Force Lightning whenever you will it and resist the temptations of evil. You will eventually fall and though atonement is possible, it is unlikely.

 

The dark side is also far more seductive than the light side. The reason for this is that the galaxy is a painful place and its easier to wish to cause pain on those who hurt you than to forgive them. Taking vengeance and acting cruelly causes a Force-user to fall closer to the dark side. The light side on the other hand is more passive and this is the reason for the Jedi's usual stance as neutral keepers of the peace.

 

There is an example of this temptation. There was an immensely powerful Jedi who was considered a pinnacle of the Jedi teachings and Code. However, he became convinced that the Republic was growing corrupt and that the Jedi in service to it could not serve it without further being corrupted. He began to doubt his own teachings and finally left the Order and began to experiment with the dark side in the hope that a balance could be achieved between light and dark, a balance he could use to save the galaxy.

 

In time he even became convinced he was the Chosen One. His name was Count Dooku.

 

The people who plan and command such acts DO know better. They definitely know why this is good for them and not for a "greater good".

 

Even religious wars have political motives: It is all for power.

 

Generally, the leaders don't believe in their own BS. Believing in a good purpose has always been the role of the naive crowd.

 

You on the other hand are vastly oversimplifying human nature. I'll agree that many people who commit atrocities know some of what they are doing and greed may be a motive but they often find ways to convince themselves as well as others that there is a justification for their misdeeds. People who commit atrocities and don't justify them eventually go crazy with guilt. And if they don't have to justify them than they lack a conscience and an ability to tell right from wrong and hence are clinically insane already.

 

Furthermore, remember that our ideas of right and wrong are not universal. Many ideals are based on circumstances of environment, neighboring influences, and basic instinct. For example, most would consider killing people who surrendered to be a heinous crime in modern society. However, the Japanese samurai, Viking raiders, and Mongol warriors thought nothing of it. Yet many of these people were caring, loving people who otherwise lived what we would consider "good" lives. This is because of how their culture evolves.

 

The thing about the dark side is that it in the end is something that transforms somebody into pure evil, a person who revels in pain and suffering. Some, like Anakin or Ulic may start off with noble goals but they are nonetheless transformed into monsters by the dark side's power. These people could be considered insane if not for the fact that it is the dark side acting through them, not themselves. The dark side is hard to resist but it can be done, hence how Anakin threw his life away for Luke in Return of the Jedi.

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ask yourself, how do all things start?

 

in the absolute beginning, there were probably several force sensitives who eventually banded together after adventures or trials and decided to found an order based on the peacekeeping of the galaxy.

 

probably wasn't embraced by the planets all at once but over time it was.

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