NWN 2 News Exclusive Interview with Ferret!

[Jumjalum]

Bioware promised us a good Single Player campaign out of NWN1 which turned out to be abysmally average.  Ferret, not to be overly negative on this but lets see some evidence.  I mean I trust Obsidian to do their best possible job on the game but fool me once, shame on you.  Fool me twice, well you know the rest.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I think Bush said it best

 

"Fool me once, shame on....shame on you. Fool me....you can't get fooled again."

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

I agree with Hades. And the whole Bioware didnt have time is a croc that only the naive or the brainwashed would swallow.

 

There are so many things that I dont particularly care for in NwN that its going to take an impressive campaign to overlook them.

[Judge Hades]

If it is not right, it is not well.

[Drakron]

I agree with Hades. And the whole Bioware didnt have time is a croc that only the naive or the brainwashed would swallow. .

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

The game suffered when BioWare break from Interplay.

 

Bioware was put in a dificult position, the D&D license was hold by Atari and Interplay so they could not invest much time in the game until the license problems were solved and that was either scrap the D&D and FR content or get Atari as publisher.

 

When Atari became the new publisher they set a release date, given the dificulties the game had BioWare had no choice but to release it on that date, the game suffered from the lack of work done during the "pubisher limbo" and from the fact the new publisher set in stone the release date.

 

Of course there were errors during development, a notable one was that BioWare did not intended to have party members and had to implement henchmans due to the problems of trying to make the D&D system (that is party based) into a single system.

[kirottu]

If it is not right, it is not well.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I do the roll-eyes thing. Don

[Judge Hades]

That is their poor choice of design to begin with. I like to know what designer over at Bioware thought to make this game a one character in the first place. Obviously they never played DnD.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Of course there were errors during development, a notable one was that BioWare did not intended to have party members and had to implement henchmans due to the problems of trying to make the D&D system (that is party based) into a single system.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Exactly, they didnt want to do a decent single player game and only did so because thats where 75% of the market is (like anyone couldnt have told them that).

 

Until I see see NwN II do something to change that I'm going to get gushy over NwN II because I dont like the "henchmen" system anyway.

 

In no way should this be taken as some sort of threat. I did take exception to Bioware employees telling me how great a single player game NwN was and how it was at least as good as BG II (yeah right).. Anyway all I want from Obsidian is honesty, nothing more. If NwN II dosnt turn out something I like, well no hard feelings.

[Monte Carlo]

Yes, Obs want to be very careful about their predictions for the single-player campaign. The veracity of Bioware devs after NWN OC is, to be polite, diminished.

 

Now, I'm not going over the whole sorry "we were had over by Bioware over the nature of NwN" argument...AGAIN. No. We've done that.

 

What I am saying is that if Obs just say "we are gonna make a kickass sequel to NwN for the core fans...the builders, the multiplayers, the modders" then OK, fair enough. Big respect because they'll probably achieve that.

 

However, Ferret is clearly pushing a company line that the SP market (remember us?) is also where NwN2 is at. Now, I have a lot of respect for MCA et.al over at Obs and have no doubt that they will be able to create a story better that the NwN OC. Then again, as I have declared before, my six year old nephew could. What I do doubt is that the short-ish dev cycle and other issues that Visceris (totally reasonably) points out makes us understandably sceptical.

 

Who gives a rat's arse if I buy the game? Nobody. Nonetheless, Obs does have to deal with the lamentable legacy of the dreadful NwN OC. Period.

 

It is my considered opinion that decent CRPGs are going down the crapper. I'd love NwN2 to prove me wrong, Ditto Dragon Age. However, I've been a disappointed fan too many times. I no longer "early adopt" games...I'll wait until NWN2 is released and patched before I even think about buying it.

 

Cheers

MC

[Drakron]

Some years ago they tried to sell multiplayer only games, they failed.

 

Only MMORPGs sell and that is because MMORPGs are a diferent kind of drugs.

 

Its no wonder they are trying to sell NwN2 to the people that just play single player games, its were the core of the market as BioWare learned, the people that play multiplayer are a ninority and the people that mod are a even smaller ninority and those sales would not have covered the cost of the game.

 

I have to agree 18 months is simply not enough time, its not even enough time for a game using a existing engine let alone one that uses a new engine and tries to be a swiss army knife.

[Rhomal]

Atari does not play this forum bills and many of us remenber the day the forums moved and the atittude of some "NwN CCC" about it.

 

And they might be paying the game development but you really think they would cancel it because OE allowed NWN2 forums to stay up in here?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Frankly, I think:

 

a. Your totally ignorant on the topic.

 

b. Your talking out of your arse.

 

My 2 coppers

[Rhomal]

I agree with Hades. And the whole Bioware didnt have time is a croc that only the naive or the brainwashed would swallow.

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I more or less agree. Bioware had FIVE years on nwn1. How much more time did they need?

 

They have 2 yrs for nwn 2. Which I feel is reasonable for what they want to get done.

[Drakron]

How long did Half Life2 take to develop?

 

They had 5 years to make a game that required a new game engine that was going to be used for multiplayer as well, lets add the whole toolset that had to be idiot proof and it becames quite a task since it was all in house made.

 

And lets not forget BioWare was completing BG2 at the same time they were making NwN, there was less need for a tech team for BG2 since it was using their IE engine.

 

BioWare is no Konami with several diferent teams working on several projects at once.

[Judge Hades]

I don't think 2 years is enough time for Obsidian to do what they want to do with NWN 2. 2 1/2 to 3 years would be more like it.

[kirottu]

I think Feargus made the choice of 18 months developement cycle for their games after Planescape Torment. I don

[Noceur]

I think Feargus made the choice of 18 months developement cycle for their games after Planescape Torment. I don

[Rhomal]

I don't think 2 years is enough time for Obsidian to do what they want to do with NWN 2.  2 1/2 to 3 years would be more like it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Keep in mind, they are not building the majority from scratch. They have a code base to start with. The only re-inventing of the wheel is the graphics engine and toolset, the rest they are just modifiying. That in itself saves a lot of time IMO.

 

My 2 coppers

[Volourn]

"Well in BioWare defence Visc they did not really had the time ... the only diference is that OE had no problem in comming clean after KotOR II was released over time issues as BioWare only said that NwN OC had problems when they were trying to sell HotU."

 

Not true. This wa sinformation shared with us right after the OC was released before any epxansions wer eannounced. Other than that, Drakron, is right on.

 

 

Anyone whot hinks BIO spent fives years working on the NWN OC is just plain ignorant. The game took 5 years. That includes all the steps. That also doens't include all the effort put into BG2, TOB, AND KOTOR whichw ere all ebing made at the same time as NWN. It's also easy to ignore the fact that BIO had tod eal with a complete publisher change and a court case. Not to emntion that the OC was overworked. The big mistake that BIo can be held solely resposnible for is the lack of henchmen in the OC. They shoulda listened to me. I warned them!

 

 

"Then again, as I have declared before, my six year old nephew could."

 

Proof? You are making up balony. Send me a opy of his story though I know you are blowing smoke again.

 

 

"more or less agree. Bioware had FIVE years on nwn1. How much more time did they need?"

 

Read up on the history. until then, in all due disrespect ( ) you shouldn't be accusing Drakron of ignornace. He seems to have a better grasp of the facts when it comes to NWN1's development than you do.

 

Hey, Hades, you called NWN OC (dismisally) average. LOL That's different than "one of the worst games ever". LOL

[Rhomal]

"more or less agree. Bioware had FIVE years on nwn1. How much more time did they need?"

 

Read up on the history. until then, in all due disrespect ( ) you shouldn't be accusing Drakron of ignornace. He seems to have a better grasp of the facts when it comes to NWN1's development than you do.

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

My comment to Drak was on a totally unrelated topic. He apparently is not aware of the influence publishers have over start-up developers. Hence my comment. The first part, unlike the second, I wasnt trying to be sarcastic. I feel he is ignorant (ie uneducated) on the topic.

 

As far as the 5 yrs issue, I am well aware the OC wasnt in development in 5 yrs. But if you know anything about game development you know its not a linear progression. You dont all work on the FX engine, then all work on the sound system, then all work on the toolset then all work on the OC...

 

The team is dymanic, different people work on different aspects of a game. The toolset guy does not take away from the story guy does not take away from the FX guy.

 

Thus yes, 5 years is more then enough time to get a quality game out the door. But at that time Bioware did not have the collective experience to do such a massive project justice and things slipped and suffered. Just the fact they tacked on the OC at the end of the dev cycle from all indications I have seen shows me at least there was some planning issues with the project. More time was needed IMO for it.

 

In the hands of a, at the time, a more expereinced dev house I feel nwn1 would have been a much better game. I also beleive aiming for ultra low h/w was a poor decesion as well. Something I am glad to see Obsidian is correcting in my eyes.

 

I beleive -now- if Bioware did nwn1, it would be x3 better then their initial attempt. As they now have the collective expereince and skill to IMO pull it off much more successfully.

 

The reason I am confidant in Obsidian is the fact of the massive amount of expereince of the team, the fact they dont have to re-invent every wheel and they have realistic goals IMO. Thus 2 yrs I feel is a fair amount of time.

[Drakron]

Sure its not linear but you appear to be saying NwN OC was developed over those 5 years as everything points out BioWare started building the engine first and only created the actual campain after the engine was at a stable build.

 

BioWare is not that big and they had BG 2 to work on, I doubt any actual work in the NwN OC campain started before BG2 was finished.

 

I am not excusing BioWare mistakes and they made many during development, they made compromises for multiplayer and the toolset that hurt OC.

 

Nothing says a "more experienced" team would do better, they might done things diferently that BioWare that could have lead to a better or worst game.

 

My comment over the OC is that it sufferef from lack of time, funny thing on how you say about I am not being "aware of the influence publishers have over start-up developers" as I am blaming Atari from imposing a release date to BioWare leading to BioWare having to rush the OC to meet it, BioWare might not been a "start-up" at that time but had exclusive worked for Interplay and was stuck with a nearly complete project.

 

Also I have to be amused with your saying you are confident with OE that *is* a start-up company with only one complted project, SW:KotOR2:TSL ... just because they have team members experienced in making RPGs does not mean they dont end up another Troika.

[Judge Hades]

@ Volourn: It is one of the worse games I ever played. It is in my top ten list of worse games I ever played, but that doesn't change the fact that it is average. I did give it a 75%.

[Judge Hades]

Keep in mind, they are not building the majority from scratch. They have a code base to start with. The only re-inventing of the wheel is the graphics engine and toolset, the rest they are just modifiying. That in itself saves a lot of time IMO.

 

My 2 coppers

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yes, they are not starting completely from scratch and that is the problem. They don't have intimate knowledge of the game engine because they did not make it. Also they are making a new graphics engine which needs to be compatible with the old base engine. Add a tool set, DM client, and MP/Server to the mix you have one large hodge podge of code to swim through.

[Volourn]

"As far as the 5 yrs issue, I am well aware the OC wasnt in development in 5 yrs. But if you know anything about game development you know its not a linear progression. You dont all work on the FX engine, then all work on the sound system, then all work on the toolset then all work on the OC...\"

 

It's real simple. BIO original vision of NWN was not to have no OC. At all. Zilch. Zero. Nadda. Theyw ere supposed to ahve just a couple of little mods as examples of the toolset.

 

The only reason why an OC was even included was fans of the Bg series (including myself) bugged them about it. Over, and over, and over, and over, and over again. BIO's biggest mistake on NWN was listening to the whiners like me.

 

So, instead of getting a perfect toolset, we got a great toolset that coula been better and an OC that while I and many others enjoyed was not as good as BIo can do as evidenced by their previous work and their work sense including HOTU. That's the reason why the OC gets so much flak. Not becuase it sucks outright. It's just that after the Bgs eries; people expected God's Gift To Single Player Games. Heck, even in this very thread, Hades finanly admitted it was (abysmally) average which is what I've been saying all along.

 

As for experienced devs doing a better job. i just don't know. Afterall, when Troika was formed, they had some of the most experfienced game devlopers ever most notbaly Tim Cain whose been in the business for nearly 20 years and they still screwed up their company.

 

 

"I beleive -now- if Bioware did nwn1, it would be x3 better then their initial attempt. As they now have the collective expereince and skill to IMO pull it off much more successfully."

 

Of course they would. It be silly to think otherwise. Afterall, NWN has been out for nearly three years so BIO has lots of feedbakc on what NWN did both right and wrong. This is (obviously) why NWN2 should be better than NWN1 - Obsidian has all that info. Then again, I thought the same for KOTOR2 and I was wrong. <> But, i'm sure Obsidian learned from their mistakles with KOTOR2 and Feargu's comments about needing an internal QA illustrates that they have. That's a good thing.

 

 

"The team is dymanic, different people work on different aspects of a game. The toolset guy does not take away from the story guy does not take away from the FX guy."

 

All true. Of course, as Drakron mentions, BIO did have other games. Their story guys were also working on BG2, TOB, and even KOTOR. Remember, NWN was basiclaly being planned even as BIO was developing BG1. It wans't like their story guys were playing tiddlywinks; theyw ere likely working on BG2 and other games.

 

 

"Thus yes, 5 years is more then enough time to get a quality game out the door."

 

Ahh.. But, NWN is a quality game. Very few if non quality games get successful expansions otherwise. Nor would Obsidian be working on NWN2 if NWN1 wasn't a quality enough game to warrant a sequel.

 

 

"The reason I am confidant in Obsidian is the fact of the massive amount of expereince of the team, the fact they dont have to re-invent every wheel and they have realistic goals IMO. Thus 2 yrs I feel is a fair amount of time."

 

Realistic? I dunno. Afterall, accoridng to them their graphics will be the Best Ever tm, their Story will be the Best Ever tm. , the Toolset will be the Best ever tm. That doesn't sem to be relaistic in a 2 year span even with an alreayd made engine. That said, I figure NWN2 will be a greta game; but I doubt the OC will be as good as the best games in the business. The overall package will kick behinds though.

 

 

Drakron, good post.

 

 

"They don't have intimate knowledge of the game engine because they did not make it. "

 

Yo, Hades, that's why they have BIO helping them with that. It's not like they exist in a vaccumm.

 

 

"@ Volourn: It is one of the worse games I ever played. It is in my top ten list of worse games I ever played, but that doesn't change the fact that it is average. I did give it a 75%."

 

You say it's an avergae game yet put it in your 'worst 10' games ever. You, sir, need to play more games if an 'average' game is in your worst 10. Afterall, average means average not worst or best.

 

 

R00fles!

[Judge Hades]

Like I said, I only play CRPGs and Space Combat Sims.

 

Also there have been quite a number of non-quality games that gotten sequels. Liesure Suite Larry series, the Sims, The Final Fantasy games, and the entire Might and Magic series.

[Volourn]

"Liesure Suite Larry series, the Sims, The Final Fantasy games, and the entire Might and Magic series."

 

You gotta be kiddin'. I'm sujre there are better examples than this. I cna think of at least two, imo. The four you mentioned, two of which I perosnally don't like, are all quality titles in their own way. Tsk, tsk.

 

 

"Like I said, I only play CRPGs and Space Combat Sims."

 

Like I said, you need to play more games. heck, i can think of quite a few CRPGS that are eaisly worse than NWN. Haven't you played the EOB series? *puke* That series alone is enough to make one shake their heads at crappy games.

[Judge Hades]

Never really played the EOBs I have them somewhere due to the game pack I got for the Old FR gold box games. Man, those were great. Dammit, now you got me wanting to rummage for all my old games. The computer room is going to be a huge mess now.