The Incomplete Endings are lame.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Actually, I dont see Atton killing Sion because Atton, like Kreia always says (like it or not) is a fool. Exile's victory against Sion was a matter of breaking Sion's will, so he could no longer sustain his body through the force. I doubt Atton would be capable of the same feat. Though it does seem he got his ass kicked too easily.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Fool or not he kicks serious butt

 

I expect in game terms he'd have a better than evens chance of killing Kreia too.

Of course it all depends on his training and his equipment. But thats just another reason why one size fits all scenes are not good for games.

[SteveThaiBinh]

Are we sure Atton always would have died though?  Listening to the dialogue perhaps he would only die if he didn't become a jedi character?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ideally, you would want to have several possible endings for each character, depending how their stories had progressed during the game, i.e. went LS/DS, Jedi or not. This would be the logical end result of the influence system, it would have increased replayability, and satisfied more people as you can save characters you like and send those you don't like (Disciple, anyone?) to their dooms.

 

If Obsidian ever intended anything so ambitious, there must be a lot more cut material than has been found on the disks, and this may 'leak' (unofficially) in the coming months. I still suspect that Obsidian gave up on these alternative endings quite early on, because of the complexity involved.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Very true. Thats a lot of variables right there. Non Jedi DS/LS Jedi DS/LS for each of the characters. All to be placed in the appropriate scenes...

 

Although from reading the dialogue of the disciple perhaps the original intent was to always have a Jedi party by the end game regardless.

[Smilodon]

How exactly did Bao-Dur "sacrificed" himself?

 

Because i didn't completely understand the ending concering the Remote stuff, all i got is Bao-Dur (or a holo of him?) ordering it to reactivate the Mass Shadow Generator to blow up Malachor or something like that.. 8[

[Darth_Riggers]

Reading all this stuff about cut material reminds me of the first Soul Reaver - that had loads of stuff cut. In the end, they took the sequels in a completely different direction.

 

Having a character die can be a double-edged sword - you might gain respect because you've given the story integerity and realism, but on the other hand, some people might feel cheated by the death of one of their characters. Like in.....

 

 

 

 

 

Final Fantasy VII - Aeris died halfway through the game. I knew grown men that cried at that....

 

Final Fantasy X - Tidus fading from existance. Felt a bit robbed at that.

 

Legacy of Kain: Defiance - Raziel gets absorbed into the Soul Reaver. I cried at this! But I felt it was a good move - his character had perhaps gone as far as it could.

 

And relating to Star Wars, LucasFilm decided to kill off Chewbacca and Anakin (Han and Leia's youngest son) in the Star Wars novels, because it felt unrealistic that they could go for decades participating in these highly dangerous situations without losing anybody. Nothing like a good death to make to appreciate the magnitude of the threat you're facing.

[Aegis]

I knew grown men that cried at that....

 

And that is a bad thing? Emotions is what RPGs is all about for me. And I mean real emotions. What is more real than love, hate... and sorrow?

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Reading all this stuff about cut material reminds me of the first Soul Reaver - that had loads of stuff cut.  In the end, they took the sequels in a completely different direction.

 

Having a character die can be a double-edged sword - you might gain respect because you've given the story integerity and realism, but on the other hand, some people might feel cheated by the death of one of their characters. Like in.....

 

 

 

 

 

Final Fantasy VII - Aeris died halfway through the game.  I knew grown men that cried at that....

 

Final Fantasy X - Tidus fading from existance.  Felt a bit robbed at that.

 

Legacy of Kain: Defiance - Raziel gets absorbed into the Soul Reaver.  I cried at this! But I felt it was a good move - his character had perhaps gone as far as it could.

 

And relating to Star Wars, LucasFilm decided to kill off Chewbacca and Anakin (Han and Leia's youngest son) in the Star Wars novels, because it felt unrealistic that they could go for decades participating in these highly dangerous situations without losing anybody.  Nothing like a good death to make to appreciate the magnitude of the threat you're facing.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Aeris didnt really bother me. If it had been Tiffa on the hand... Still at that point of the game Sephiroth would have decimated you. It does however make the Sephiroth/Cloud thing all the more personal.

 

Didnt mind Tidus since the alternative was Yuna being torn appart by the final Aeon and that was almost certain to be Tidus. Given the choice between "dying" himself or tearing appart the one he loved, I think he made the right choice.

 

I dont recall that one, although I played the game. Which I guess means it didnt have any meaning for me.

 

 

Books/films are different to games because the only reality is what is shown. Where as in a game you also have the reality of the rules system.

[Darth_Riggers]

I knew grown men that cried at that....

 

And that is a bad thing? Emotions is what RPGs is all about for me. And I mean real emotions. What is more real than love, hate... and sorrow?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Not a bad thing, no - it's a testament to the skill of the game developers if they can actually make a game where the player feels an emotional attachment to the characters.

[213374U]

The ending of the game is bland and incomplete. If you want happy endings where they all get a hug in the end after saving the forest go read some Winnie the Pooh books or watch the goddamn smurfs.

 

And I hope they space them all for K3 including the exile and Revan, enough with the ego boosting already.

[stoffe -mkb-]

Things like this are highly subjective. I personally despise anti-climactic endings, as I think they ruin the whole experience and leaves an empty, unsatisfied feeling when the game is over. Doesn't feel good when you go through all those perils in the game only to have it all end like THAT.

 

For example, I loved the game Planescape:Torment every second I played it... until the ending, which ruined it all. I have played that game one time only. No matter how much I loved the rest of it, I could not bring myself to play it again knowing that it ended that way no matter what I did. It just felt pointless.

 

I guess I'm rather strange in that respect...

 

As such I too prefer it the way it is rather than have them take the characters you've spent countless hours to build up and kill them an inch from the finishing line just to provoke emotion.

[213374U]

That's the way it is with tragedies. If you have a work of fiction that is a tragedy all the way to the end but at the last moment you change the perfectly fitting tragic ending with an incomplete and cliched happy ending you get... K2.

 

I guess people aren't cut out for tragedies anymore.

[Master Dahvernas]

I guess people aren't cut out for tragedies anymore.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Because real life, if you haven't been keeping up, is pretty Goddamn tragic right now.

 

War in Iraq... Possibly another war looming with Iran... Families and loved ones being split up/killed, the Economy (in the U.S.) is tanking, high unemployment, Civil Liberties at stake (Same-Sex Marriage; Abortion)... Leaders who are in control should not be in control (U.S.) and are taking this country down a dangerous path...

 

It's almost as if "Revenge of the Sith" is some kind of pseudo-prophecy...

 

So, you can hopefully see why people aren't all that into "tragedy" right about now.

 

For the record, I like tragedies and thought the sacrifice of some of your party members would have given the game more emotional impact because as of right now the game is very shallow and empty (due to the cut-content) towards the end, let alone, makes no sense because of the obvious story gaps and plot holes.

 

So, in that sense... From a game sense... I would have liked to see the sacrifices included... But from a real world gamer -- someone outside the game -- You also have to remember why people play games, watch movies and read books: To escape.

[Aegis]

This age is no worse than any previous age. The Black Death, constant wars, famine, tyranny... the list goes on. Compared to most of human history, the situation today is just dandy.

[213374U]

Because real life, if you haven't been keeping up, is pretty Goddamn tragic right now.

 

War in Iraq... Possibly another war looming with Iran... Families and loved ones being split up/killed, the Economy (in the U.S.) is tanking, high unemployment, Civil Liberties at stake (Same-Sex Marriage; Abortion)... Leaders who are in control should not be in control (U.S.) and are taking this country down a dangerous path...

 

It's almost as if "Revenge of the Sith" is some kind of pseudo-prophecy...

 

So, you can hopefully see why people aren't all that into "tragedy" right about now.

 

For the record, I like tragedies and thought the sacrifice of some of your party members would have given the game more emotional impact because as of right now the game is very shallow and empty (due to the cut-content) towards the end, let alone, makes no sense because of the obvious story gaps and plot holes.

 

So, in that sense... From a game sense... I would have liked to see the sacrifices included... But from a real world gamer -- someone outside the game -- You also have to remember why people play games, watch movies and read books: To escape.

If you think the world is today any more cruel than it was two thousand years ago, you are sadly deluded. Yet for some reason, they enjoyed tragedies back then as much as they enjoyed comedy.

 

And as for entertainment being a means of escape from reality, well, something's got to be very wrong with your life if you need to escape from it. They might as well give in to the blissful peace that sniffing glue provides.

[Wycked]

Things like this are highly subjective. I personally despise anti-climactic endings, as I think they ruin the whole experience and leaves an empty, unsatisfied feeling when the game is over. Doesn't feel good when you go through all those perils in the game only to have it all end like THAT.

 

For example, I loved the game Planescape:Torment every second I played it... until the ending, which ruined it all. I have played that game one time only. No matter how much I loved the rest of it, I could not bring myself to play it again knowing that it ended that way no matter what I did. It just felt pointless.

 

I guess I'm rather strange in that respect...

 

As such I too prefer it the way it is rather than have them take the characters you've spent countless hours to build up and kill them an inch from the finishing line just to provoke emotion.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

What's so bad about the PST ending? I found it perfect.

K2 had holes, big annoying holes, even at the ending. I dont mind the ending itself, but the holes in it and in the rest of the game. It felt incomplete, while PST felt very complete.

 

As for good/bad endings. I like happy endings, but I also like a degree of sacrifice in them - having a perfectly good ending is nice and all, but I prefere when there's something which leaves a bad taste, like it's all all so good. For example, sacrificing Visas to kill Darth Nihilus is a good ending, which leaves a bad taste of Visas' sacrifice.

 

Third thing, I always like it when a storyline makes me more attached to the characters. When I get attached to characters in a story, I find the story a lot more enjoyable in many ways, and definately radiating more emotions, rather than a flat story with flat characters that just starts and ends and that's that.

[tmp]

Never liked the endings either. Although the reason was twofold. First I was incredulous that Sion could have killed Atton in game when Atton in my game was only a fraction less uber than a I was.

Which is quite silly result of game mechanics when you think of it, when any random character after one lesson from broken Jedi and few days of running around grows as powerful as a Sith lord or Jedi master who's spent many years to become what they are...

[AlanC9]

She can die during the fight against Darth Nihilus, actually. Even in the final version of the game. Simply equip Visas Marr with simple Clothing (no armor or robes) and some sort of melee weapon or lightsaber before entering the Bridge on the Ravager. During the mid-battle "intermission" moment (when Visas Marr said, "He's...too powerful..."), look for a new dialogue option there that will allow you to actually convince her to sacrifice herself. It was sort of portrayed as a cruel Dark Side-oriented action on your part to convince her to do so, more than any sort of uplifting resolution for Visas Marr's character, though...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

How'd you discover this, anyway? I can't imagine anyone leaving Visas without a robe or some such by that point in the game.

[Haitoku]

She can die during the fight against Darth Nihilus, actually. Even in the final version of the game. Simply equip Visas Marr with simple Clothing (no armor or robes) and some sort of melee weapon or lightsaber before entering the Bridge on the Ravager. During the mid-battle "intermission" moment (when Visas Marr said, "He's...too powerful..."), look for a new dialogue option there that will allow you to actually convince her to sacrifice herself. It was sort of portrayed as a cruel Dark Side-oriented action on your part to convince her to do so, more than any sort of uplifting resolution for Visas Marr's character, though...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

How'd you discover this, anyway? I can't imagine anyone leaving Visas without a robe or some such by that point in the game.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You don't have to equip her with cloths... I got the options during the fight with the battle gear I had equip'd her with... Never used the options though.

[Darth Hoebag]

Well whatever it is, i'm glad Atton makes it in the end. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Sometimes I would lead Atton into enemy fire just to let him get knocked out, its the closest thing to beating him I could do.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Which is quite silly result of game mechanics when you think of it, when any random character after one lesson from broken Jedi and few days of running around grows as powerful as a Sith lord or Jedi master who's spent many years to become what they are...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Maybe it is,but it's still important that the reality of the game mechanics be taken into account when writing scenes, otherwise it makes what you do totally pointless.

But like Kreia said. It's conflict that makes us strong so it's little wonder with all the conflicts you get into.

[Grant Dempsey]

I expect in game terms he'd have a better than evens chance of killing Kreia too.

Of course it all depends on his training and his equipment. But thats just another reason why one size fits all scenes are not good for games.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, it's always been my experience in gaming (at least with RPGs) that the realm of gameplay was generally kept separate from the realm of the storyline and the cutscenes. There have been some exceptions, but, y'know, things could generally occur in cutscenes (such as a character just getting stabbed or shot and actually dying from it) that wouldn't be a big deal if it had occured in gameplay (such as that same character just getting stabbed or shot and enduring it while only "receiving 10 HPs worth of damage" or something).

 

So, those kinds of things don't really bother me. If Darth Sion truly had tortured and killed Atton, I don't think I would've found myself thinking, "Hey, wait, Darth Sion was so easy for my Exile to defeat that I'm sure my Atton could've killed him, too! What's going on here?" I'd just accept it as something that had occured within the realm of the storyline, rather than the realm of gameplay.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Sometimes I would lead Atton into enemy fire just to let him get knocked out, its the closest thing to beating him I could do.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

My funny Atton story. Took a wrong turn in GOTOs ship and ended up in the turret room. Down goes Atton, Visis runs away. Then you see Xp 350 on screen followed by Atton falling over again. Took about 20 minutes but he cleared the room, and I had a snack break.

[Darth Hoebag]

then don't turn him into a jedi... but seriously did anyone finish the game without turning anyone into a jedi... was there any variation?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I diddnt turn anyone... I diddnt get much of an ending at all, I diddnt even find out what happened to Bao's droid. Talk to Kreia blah blah, Atton will go off on his own and continue murdering people and eventaully die all alone and no one cares and he accomplishes nothing in life (ha! )

 

blah blah Despicple loves you he would follow you to where you must go but he can't.

 

so after all Kreia falls, instant pan out to the asteroid, pan the the right, credits.... thinking I might reload and try something else... thats a pretty lame excuse for an ending imo.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Well, it's always been my experience in gaming (at least with RPGs) that the realm of gameplay was generally kept separate from the realm of the storyline and the cutscenes. There have been some exceptions, but, y'know, things could generally occur in cutscenes (such as a character just getting stabbed or shot and actually dying from it) that wouldn't be a big deal if it had occured in gameplay (such as that same character just getting stabbed or shot and enduring it while only "receiving 10 HPs worth of damage" or something).

 

So, those kinds of things don't really bother me. If Darth Sion truly had tortured and killed Atton, I don't think I would've found myself thinking, "Hey, wait, Darth Sion was so easy for my Exile to defeat that I'm sure my Atton could've killed him, too! What's going on here?" I'd just accept it as something that had occured within the realm of the storyline, rather than the realm of gameplay.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Only in the bad ones. The good ones merge the two together. If you have to force something like that to tell your story ,then your doing something wrong.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

I diddnt turn anyone... I diddnt get much of an ending at all, I diddnt even find out what happened to Bao's droid. Talk to Kreia blah blah, Atton will go off on his own and continue murdering people and eventaully die all alone and no one cares and he accomplishes nothing in life (ha! )

 

blah blah Despicple loves you he would follow you to where you must go but he can't.

 

so after all Kreia falls, instant pan out to the asteroid, pan the the right, credits.... thinking I might reload and try something else...  thats a pretty lame excuse for an ending imo.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Sounds about right. Then again Suikoden has a 32 minute ending and I was even more in the dark after that one ended

 

You get a different set of futures for the LS ending and a different fate for the planet. But you will still miss it if you blink.