Jade Empire

[Judge Hades]

No.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

So, KOTOR2 should keep all of KOTOR's weaknesses? R00fles! I guess they shoulnd't have bothered wityh allowing weapon swicthing or the advanced item crafting. Guess it should have stuck with the interatcing with NPCs by level stuff as well since it was in KOTOR1 as well. Uhuh...

 

Kreia isn't the only evil character in the party yet she is the only one pretends to be loyal to you. Afterall, she constantly states how she is loyal to the PC; but no one else. Let's face it. Krea was a plot twist - just a poorly done one.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

It's not a weakness, its a preference. And it has nothing to do with the other stuff you mentioned which are gameplay improvements. Anyway since I'm stuck here I'll explain it.

 

KOTORs main plot is told through the characters.This means that A. The character has to be alive and B. The character has to be in your party at the right time.

 

KOTOR would totally fall appart if Bastilla could die before her role was done , or any other plot character for that matter. Thats why everyone gets up after combat and only dies for good when their story telling duties are over.

 

It's very JRPG in it's approach to storytelling. Much more so than BG (you could see it in BGII with Imoen and how they gave you an Imoen clone , Nalia to make up for her skill set).

 

The other reason is that if you have a specific character talking at a specific point in the game, then you only have to record VO for one character, rather than have to record 10 lots of VO which basically say the same thing.

 

I knew from early on that one way the other Kreia would leave once your training was complete. It's inevitable from either side because being LS you would want to stop her and being DS you would want to remove her and usurp her power. Just like any other Sith.Nothing twisty about it and nothing particularly hidden as long as you actually interacted with the character.

[Volourn]

"KOTOR would totally fall appart if Bastilla could die before her role was done , or any other plot character for that matter. Thats why everyone gets up after combat and only dies for good when their story telling duties are over. "

 

No, it wouldn't. there are so many things BIO could have done with KOTOR even if Bastilla died during the game. Same in KOTOR2 with Kreia. Nice try though.

[Judge Hades]

What the could have don is irrelevant. Only what they did matters.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

"KOTOR would totally fall appart if Bastilla could die before her role was done , or any other plot character for that matter. Thats why everyone gets up after combat and only dies for good when their story telling duties are over. "

 

No, it wouldn't. there are so many things BIO could have done with KOTOR even if Bastilla died during the game. Same in KOTOR2 with Kreia. Nice try though.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

The story as it is written would. Which is all that matters here.Alternatives involve things like having to write a totally different plot for a start.

 

Like I said if you dont like the design, thats your perogative, but it's a design choice not a weakness.One that goes very much hand in hand with full VO.

 

Wouldnt suprise me if Jade Empire does exactly the same thing as well.

[Volourn]

"Like I said if you dont like the design, thats your perogative, but it's a design choice not a weakness.One that goes very much hand in hand with full VO."

 

It's a weak design choice. Period.

 

 

"Wouldnt suprise me if Jade Empire does exactly the same thing as well."

 

Maybe. maybe not. if it does; though; it be a weakness. Period.

[Judge Hades]

No permie death is a weak design.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

It's a weak design choice. Period.

 

Maybe. maybe not. if it does; though; it be a weakness. Period.

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

So why not loby Bioware about it then, if it bothers you that much.

 

Well unless you know of a realistic alternative that everyone else somehow missed I guess your just in for a slew of disapointments.

 

I dont recall if JE lets you rename your characters or not, but in essence they are PC templates rather than creations.

[Child of Flame]

Thank you everyone in this thread for not using the spoiler tags, and essentially laying out the entire KotOR II plot for me. I really appreciate it. :angry:

[Judge Hades]

What spoilers? I see no spoilers here.

[Arclam]

You spoiled the fact that the game spoils the "plot twist" for you. I have to agree with Visc here, I cant call Kreia's

betrayal

a plot twist. It is obvious as soon as you get off Peragus (As soon as you learn anything about Kreia) what will happen. There are no attemps made keep the player in the dark.

[Drakron]

I'm not worried about alignemnt stuff. I actually like the D&D alignment system. That said, JE's system is not a strict alignment system like D&D's is. They are philopshies of a way of life; not neccessarily good/evil.

 

Unfortunalty from what I read they look to have a influence of mechanics and as a good/evil system is easy to understand what BioWare did was come up with a rather odd aligment axis that serves no purpose if they did not build a system around it.

 

I dont mind aligment systems that much but they are always a complication to the game mechanics and BioWare just made one based on some weird notions.

 

 

LOL Since when does FF have sole rights to airships? You are right; this isn't FF. FF doesn't even try to let you 'choose your destiny". The airship - the drgaonfly - looks cool; and it seems to fit the world of the Jade Empire.

 

That thing look stupid too me and it looks to be put in just to copy Final Fantasy.

 

The Jade Empire is *not* Ancient China. BIO has already said if you are someone epxecting a full fledge recreation of Ancient China you are looking at the wrong game.

 

BIO wrote ...

 

Jade Empire was anounced at Tokio Game Show, MS was thinking of boost Fire Hazard sales with JE in japan (or at least JPN region) seeing were it was anounced.

 

They given that idea at start ...

 

As you can see, it is not China; but a completely fictional world.

 

Yes and I always get somewhat pissed when I seen the japanese despiction of european culture in anime.

 

Besides it was BioWare/Microsoft marketing system that thrown the word "china", not the press covering the game.

 

Now they sing a diferent tone ... perhaps MS is a bit afraid they will piss off the entire chinese, japanese and korean market by insulting their culture ... JE appears to being marketed to western audiences that know little to none of chinese culture.

 

So, let me see, if the story doesn't have the 5 elemtns, it's gonna suck? Hmm..

 

Its its even based in chinese mytology it sould be, it was very important at a time and even japan had a varient of it.

 

True things evolved and changed over time but its similar ro remove druids away from something based on european myths.

[Drakron]

Here is something over why I have so many problems with the whole thing BioWare is doing over religion and aligment in Jade Empire.

 

http://philtar.ucsm.ac.uk/encyclopedia/china/pop.html

[Volourn]

"So why not loby Bioware about it then, if it bothers you that much."

 

I have told them this. Repeatedly. Same thing with the 'control non PC characters' thing as well. They ain't gonna listen to me. And, why should they?

 

 

"Well unless you know of a realistic alternative that everyone else somehow missed I guess your just in for a slew of disapointments."

 

Um. It's pretty obvious how. The same way BG2 handled it. Imoen was a very important character yet somehow the story didn't fall a part if and when she died.

 

It's real simple. In Kreia's case for example; it's real easy. If she dies - eother by the PC or in battle - you simply shift the focus onto the other Sith lords. Any of them would have made a decent BBG with a little more depth. In KOTOR1, even if Bastila had died the PC still had to deal with Malak one way or the other.

 

 

"I dont recall if JE lets you rename your characters or not, but in essence they are PC templates rather than creations."

 

You haven't paid attention. You cna name your character as you want in JE. It's also not templates. The characters that they have named are just pre made characters much like NWN had with auto level up or the pre packaged characters that HOTU had. They're just sample ones. The biggets limiting factor for JE character creation is the lack of character models for the PC (7 last I heard).

 

 

"Thank you everyone in this thread for not using the spoiler tags, and essentially laying out the entire KotOR II plot for me. I really appreciate it."

 

Bah. They're semi spoilers, and if people would actually discuss JE like this thread was for then perhaps we wouldn't have to worry about it. Blame SP and Hades. I just follow their lead. :D

 

 

"Unfortunalty from what I read they look to have a influence of mechanics and as a good/evil system is easy to understand what BioWare did was come up with a rather odd aligment axis that serves no purpose if they did not build a system around it.

 

I dont mind aligment systems that much but they are always a complication to the game mechanics and BioWare just made one based on some weird notions."

 

This is true. BIO probably added in due to the success of the 'Dark Side/Light Side' forumla in KOTOR.

 

 

"That thing look stupid too me and it looks to be put in just to copy Final Fantasy."

 

I like Dragonfly. As for copying FF; BIO has no reason to do so. Perhaps, they thought a flying machine would fit the JE world.

 

 

"Besides it was BioWare/Microsoft marketing system that thrown the word "china", not the press covering the game.

 

Now they sing a diferent tone ... perhaps MS is a bit afraid they will piss off the entire chinese, japanese and korean market by insulting their culture ... JE appears to being marketed to western audiences that know little to none of chinese culture."

 

BIO has always stated that JE is a world of their own creation. They have always stated that ancient China mythology was nothing but a starting off point not that they were gonna make it exactly like Ancient China. People should stop seeing the words 'martial arts' or 'Ancient China' nad assuming it's a total recreation of a FICTIONAL China. That's just silly, and no, it's NOT BIO's fault.

 

 

"Here is something over why I have so many problems with the whole thing BioWare is doing over religion and aligment in Jade Empire."

 

Jade Empire does not equal Anicnet China Mythology. I'm sorry if that's your biggest problem with JE you've been following the wrong game. Heck, Had'es worry that BIO will have another big female bad mkaes more sense then that.

[Volourn]

More stuff about the 'alignment' Drakron. This ilustratres that it is not really alignment; but 'philosphy' stuff. It's not really about good/evil..

 

 

This from Chris Priestly: "Definately moral "grey" zones. I'll give you an example that actually appears in the game (I ain't saying where, so don't ask).

 

While exploring you come across a demon who attacks you. As you ready a killing blow, it surrenders and promises to reveal the location of a hidden treasure if you spare it's life. You listen to it's tale and once you have teh location it asks you to spare it's life.

Do you:

A) Kill it because it is an evil demon, even though it kept up it's end of the bargain?

or

B) Spare it's life since it kept it's word, but that would leave it free to kill locals?

 

The choice you make is either Open Palm or Closed Fist. Choose wisely."

 

Interesting...

 

Also, as far as romances for those who care about that sort of thing, you can supposedly have gay/bisexual relationships.... <>

[Drakron]

That is not "grey", its simply Order vs Chaos.

 

That is the problem I have with the open/closed aligment, its does not have a good/evil concept that, like it or not, its the basic of human morality.

 

Its sure not based in ancient china ... unless BioWare thinks that ancient chinese culture was amoral.

[Volourn]

"That is not "grey", its simply Order vs Chaos."

 

Umm.. Buzz.. Youa re thinking good vs. evil, and law vs chaos axis. This isn't D&D or even SW. The point being made is that the choices involved are not black and white and the two philosphies shouldn't be mixed up for any other alignment system. That situation is 'greyish' because it's not immediately obvious which of the two philosphies the two choices belong to.

[Drakron]

Of course it is.

 

One of then is about order and the other about chaos, keeping the word no matter what means order as the other means chaos.

 

If not in error Open Palm=Order, Closed Fist=Chaos.

 

So 1) Open Palm and 2)Closed Fist.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Um. It's pretty obvious how. The same way BG2 handled it. Imoen was a very important character yet somehow the story didn't fall a part  if and when she died.

 

It's real simple. In Kreia's case for example; it's real easy. If she dies - eother by the PC or in battle - you simply shift the focus onto the other Sith lords. Any of them would have made a decent BBG with a little more depth. In KOTOR1, even if Bastila had died the PC still had to deal with Malak one way or the other.

 

You haven't paid attention. You cna name your character as you want in JE. It's also not templates. The characters that they have named are just pre made characters much like NWN had with auto level up or the pre packaged characters that HOTU had. They're just sample ones. The biggets limiting factor for JE character creation is the lack of character models for the PC (7 last I heard).

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

She was only important upto a point. They protected her by revoving her from the story. She was important only in her role as victim, where as the KOTOR characters are far more active.

 

You can name your character oki doki. But if they are not templates then how come every screenshot is of a known character? Do you know what a template is btw?

 

Or are they just making up names for each of the character looks?

[Berserk]

Of course it is.

 

One of then is about order and the other about chaos, keeping the word no matter what means order as the other means chaos.

 

If not in error Open Palm=Order, Closed Fist=Chaos.

 

So 1) Open Palm and 2)Closed Fist.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Actually it's the other way around if I have understood it right. Open Palm is about doing the thing that benefits the majority which in this case equals killing the demon to prevent him from potentially harming or killing more villagers..

[Tanuvein]

I think its funny someone is trying to claim that the plot in KotOR II is a plot twist.

 

Ten minutes into the game, it shows she manipulating the people around you. True, she's doing it for your own good (at least, she believes she is), but when she finally sets it up to fight her, there's no surprise, because she's practically been building it up from the beginning.

 

Oh well, its still not as funny as people not knowing you are Revan before Malak tells you.

 

I bet Jade Empire will be fun. All of Bioware's games tend to be, minus NWN OC, even if the plot is often laughable in parts.

[Volourn]

"Or are they just making up names for each of the character looks?"

 

Exactly. You seem to missing what a template is. Templates are what is found in Diablo or Sacred.

 

In Jade Empire, you choose everything. If you choose, say, the Jade chaarcter model that is slow' you don't have to keep that way. You can make the basic stats anything you want unlike Sacred where the basic stats are as is. The only limiting factor for JE's creation process is the number of PC models.

 

 

"think its funny someone is trying to claim that the plot in KotOR II is a plot twist."

 

As far as I'm concerned any plot that contains betrayal of any sort should be considered a plot twist. Just because it's 'obvious' doens't stop it from being one; it just makes it a poor plot twist. Afterall, the argument here seems to be because the KOTOR2 plot twist is obvious it is no longer a plot twist yet the same people are arguing the KOTOR1 plot twist was obvious yet still cosndier it a plot twist. Talk about illogical.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

In Jade Empire, you choose everything. If you choose, say, the Jade chaarcter model that is slow' you don't have to keep that way. You can make the basic stats anything you want unlike Sacred where the basic stats are as is.  The only limiting factor for JE's creation process is the number of PC models.

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

In other words you can modify the existing template.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

As far as I'm concerned any plot that contains betrayal of any sort should be considered a plot twist. Just because it's 'obvious' doens't stop it from being one; it just makes it a poor plot twist. Afterall, the argument here seems to be because the KOTOR2 plot twist is obvious it is no longer a plot twist yet the same people are arguing the KOTOR1 plot twist was obvious yet still cosndier it a plot twist. Talk about illogical.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

The difference is really simple. KOTOR tried to hide the plot twise (NwN too) but failed because of really obvious writing. It's quite clear from the way the game is written because no will acknowledge your identity until the writers are ready to reveal the twist. KOTOR II makes no attempt to hide that Kreia is manipluative and working towards her on ends. Which is why its not a twist.

 

Nothing illogical about it.

[Volourn]

No on both accounts.