Volourn Posted March 13, 2005 Author Share Posted March 13, 2005 That very much is a plot twist - just a very poorly one. Why do I call it a plot twist? Simple. Your character acts oblivious to it and pretends that Kreia is just a party member with a bad attitude or even if the PC doens't like Kreia we are still stuck to here. Another wannabe plot twist is Krea's main goal. *yawn* Or about how exactly how the PC lost his powers. *yawn* Every single RPG I have ever played has had some sort of plot twist. Every single one. KOTOR2 is no exception. And, no, Obsidian shouting for all to hear that there is no plot twist doesn't make it so. DWARVES IN PROJECT ETERNITY = VOLOURN HAS PLEDGED $250. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judge Hades Posted March 13, 2005 Share Posted March 13, 2005 For there to be a plot twist both the character and the player needs to not know what is going on. There was no plot twist in KotOR 2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Volourn Posted March 13, 2005 Author Share Posted March 13, 2005 "For there to be a plot twist both the character and the player needs to not know what is going on. There was no plot twist in KotOR 2." That's nonsense. If that were the case, by your very defintion, neither NWN OC or KOTOR had plot twists. And, oh btw, the player doesn't know at the start that Kreia will betray them. Obsidian sets it up so you are supposed to think you can trust or at lasta ccept her. Afterall, she joins your party and helps you all the time. That is very much a set up for a plot twist. The problem is; it's obvious from the moment she fakes her death she is scum. DWARVES IN PROJECT ETERNITY = VOLOURN HAS PLEDGED $250. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judge Hades Posted March 13, 2005 Share Posted March 13, 2005 I think you are mistaken. When she forces herself on Atton, then heals Hanharr, and various of other small points of the game makes it obvious to the player that she will betray the PC. In NWN and KotOR Biwoare tried to use foreshadow to hint, but they really over did the foreshadowing. Bioware tries to be sneaky and failed. Obsidian right out tells the player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Volourn Posted March 13, 2005 Author Share Posted March 13, 2005 "I think you are mistaken. When she forces herself on Atton, then heals Hanharr, and various of other small points of the game makes it obvious to the player that she will betray the PC. In NWN and KotOR Biwoare tried to use foreshadow to hint, but they really over did the foreshadowing. Bioware tries to be sneaky and failed. Obsidian right out tells the player." No. DWARVES IN PROJECT ETERNITY = VOLOURN HAS PLEDGED $250. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llyranor Posted March 13, 2005 Share Posted March 13, 2005 I never saw the KOTOR2 plot twist coming (Approved by Fio, so feel free to use it) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judge Hades Posted March 13, 2005 Share Posted March 13, 2005 You have to be kidding me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Volourn Posted March 13, 2005 Author Share Posted March 13, 2005 Um. It's Llyr. While others may not have seen it; he's probably just 'pulling your leg' or trolling in his hilarious way. :D And, Hades, I'm glad you admit KOTOR2 had a plot twist finally. " Afterall, in order to see a plot twist coming there has to be one to see which youa dmit in your post directed at Llyranor that there is. DWARVES IN PROJECT ETERNITY = VOLOURN HAS PLEDGED $250. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaftan Barlast Posted March 13, 2005 Share Posted March 13, 2005 What's a plot twist? DISCLAIMER: Do not take what I write seriously unless it is clearly and in no uncertain terms, declared by me to be meant in a serious and non-humoristic manner. If there is no clear indication, asume the post is written in jest. This notification is meant very seriously and its purpouse is to avoid misunderstandings and the consequences thereof. Furthermore; I can not be held accountable for anything I write on these forums since the idea of taking serious responsability for my unserious actions, is an oxymoron in itself. Important: as the following sentence contains many naughty words I warn you not to read it under any circumstances; botty, knickers, wee, erogenous zone, psychiatrist, clitoris, stockings, bosom, poetry reading, dentist, fellatio and the department of agriculture. "I suppose outright stupidity and complete lack of taste could also be considered points of view. " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Volourn Posted March 13, 2005 Author Share Posted March 13, 2005 It's like a beer cap. You twist the plot and it pops off. DWARVES IN PROJECT ETERNITY = VOLOURN HAS PLEDGED $250. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowPaladin V1.0 Posted March 13, 2005 Share Posted March 13, 2005 What's a plot twist? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> It's where something unexpected happened that puts the plot in a new light. Like in FFX when Tidus finds out Sins identity or when he realises just what the summoners journey is really all about. I have to agree with Volourn. Bioware is pretty much dead now. Deals like this kills development studios. 478327[/snapback] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowPaladin V1.0 Posted March 13, 2005 Share Posted March 13, 2005 No. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Your the one who is saying that Kreia is obvious. Which is it make up your mind. I have to agree with Volourn. Bioware is pretty much dead now. Deals like this kills development studios. 478327[/snapback] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judge Hades Posted March 13, 2005 Share Posted March 13, 2005 If it obvious, then it is not a plot twist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Volourn Posted March 13, 2005 Author Share Posted March 13, 2005 "Your the one who is saying that Kreia is obvious. Which is it make up your mind." Something can be 'obvious' and still be a plot twist like in the OC's case. Don't confuse the issue. "If it obvious, then it is not a plot twist." Then, are you saying that neitehr the OC or KOTOR1 have plot twists? Afterall, they are supposedly obvious. Which is it, Hades? Anyways, to try to get back on topic somewhat, what do people think of the actual trailer (for those who have watched it)? DWARVES IN PROJECT ETERNITY = VOLOURN HAS PLEDGED $250. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judge Hades Posted March 13, 2005 Share Posted March 13, 2005 I have no real interest in the game. Its not on my prefered platform and its Bioware. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowPaladin V1.0 Posted March 13, 2005 Share Posted March 13, 2005 "Your the one who is saying that Kreia is obvious. Which is it make up your mind." Something can be 'obvious' and still be a plot twist like in the OC's case. Don't confuse the issue. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> KOTOR II dosnt have a plot twist for the reasons I outlined. Kreias motives are quite clear from the start talk to her and she will reveal more. The game is not trying to hide them. Which makes it different to the OC and KOTOR where the game tries to hide them, but just fails badly at it because of obvious writing. I have to agree with Volourn. Bioware is pretty much dead now. Deals like this kills development studios. 478327[/snapback] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkan Posted March 13, 2005 Share Posted March 13, 2005 Then you must really hate KOTOR2 then since it's ANOTHER female baddie AND she betrays you. R00fles! <{POST_SNAPBACK}> You son of a bitch. "Of course the people don't want war. But after all, it's the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it's always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it's a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger." - Herman Goering at the Nuremberg trials "I have also been slowly coming to the realisation that knowledge and happiness are not necessarily coincident, and quite often mutually exclusive" - meta Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Volourn Posted March 13, 2005 Author Share Posted March 13, 2005 "The game is not trying to hide them." Yes, it is. Just does it poorly. Even in the prison scene with Atton she doesn't come out and say she'll betray the PC. It's veyr much a plot twist because the game makes it appear that she is your ally so much so you are forced to have her in your aprty throughout the game. "Its not on my prefered platform and its Bioware." i can understand the platform thing; but give it a rest with BIO. You know full well if it was on PC; you'd preorder and be the first in line to buy it. You are as much a BIO fanboy as I am - even more so since you whine nonstop about them and their games and you still end up purchasing them anyways. "You son of a bitch." Yes, I am. My mother is a bitch. PS. I kid, mom, I kid. :D And, oops, if I 'spoiled' it. Though it's not a plot twist. At least if you listen to Hades and SP because it is 'obvious'. DWARVES IN PROJECT ETERNITY = VOLOURN HAS PLEDGED $250. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llyranor Posted March 13, 2005 Share Posted March 13, 2005 Ultimately, it doesn't matter whether it's labelled a plot twist or not. In KOTOR2, it was never a surprise whether Kreia has her own agenda that'd most likely oppose yours soon enough. The story didn't RELY on it being a surprise. Yet, I still enjoyed the motive behind her character. In KOTOR1, the plot RELIED on the revelation as a surprise. Being blind, uneducated AND a teenager, I hadn't really seen it coming. It was enjoyable. But, the worth of the plot device was only as good as the surprise it caused. It certainly wasn't very enjoyable if you saw it coming miles ahead, and it certainly doesn't make for good replay. I tried to replay KOTOR1 and failed miserably. Yet, I can see myself replaying KOTOR2 in the near or far future. (Approved by Fio, so feel free to use it) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Volourn Posted March 13, 2005 Author Share Posted March 13, 2005 "I tried to replay KOTOR1 and failed miserably. Yet, I can see myself replaying KOTOR2 in the near or far future." Meh. Neither KOTOR is worthy of a replay. DWARVES IN PROJECT ETERNITY = VOLOURN HAS PLEDGED $250. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowPaladin V1.0 Posted March 13, 2005 Share Posted March 13, 2005 "The game is not trying to hide them." Yes, it is. Just does it poorly. Even in the prison scene with Atton she doesn't come out and say she'll betray the PC. It's veyr much a plot twist because the game makes it appear that she is your ally so much so you are forced to have her in your aprty throughout the game. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> It showed you the cutscene. What is it trying to hide by actually showing you how devious Kreia is and the lengths she will go to get what she wants? Being forced to have set party members is part of the KOTOR series.KOTOR established it, and KOTOR II just continued it from there. I have to agree with Volourn. Bioware is pretty much dead now. Deals like this kills development studios. 478327[/snapback] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judge Hades Posted March 13, 2005 Share Posted March 13, 2005 If it was trying to hide the fact she would betray you they wouldn't have those cutscenes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Volourn Posted March 13, 2005 Author Share Posted March 13, 2005 "Being forced to have set party members is part of the KOTOR series.KOTOR established it, and KOTOR II just continued it from there." So, KOTOR2 should keep all of KOTOR's weaknesses? R00fles! I guess they shoulnd't have bothered wityh allowing weapon swicthing or the advanced item crafting. Guess it should have stuck with the interatcing with NPCs by level stuff as well since it was in KOTOR1 as well. Uhuh... "What is it trying to hide by actually showing you how devious Kreia is and the lengths she will go to get what she wants?" Kreia isn't the only evil character in the party yet she is the only one pretends to be loyal to you. Afterall, she constantly states how she is loyal to the PC; but no one else. Let's face it. Krea was a plot twist - just a poorly done one. DWARVES IN PROJECT ETERNITY = VOLOURN HAS PLEDGED $250. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judge Hades Posted March 13, 2005 Share Posted March 13, 2005 It wasn't a plot twist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Volourn Posted March 13, 2005 Author Share Posted March 13, 2005 LOL yes , it was. So, how 'bout Jade Empire, folks? DWARVES IN PROJECT ETERNITY = VOLOURN HAS PLEDGED $250. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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