Just got Gothic II

[mEtaLL1x]

Gothic 2 has no character creation.

So what?

So what if it doesn't have a *prior to the game char creation*. But it *DOES* have character development. Not very complex, but still pretty logical character development system. The "trainer" system, it's employed in many games: by gaining 'nuff XP you level up and receive skill pts. THose points are allocated to your skills through talking to various trainers. Simple, but effective.

 

So, what's the problem? Why do you think it's not CPRG then?

 

Besides, combat system and character development/creation technology is not really essential for RPGs, you know? One can easily go without it (some text RPGs come to mind).

 

It's the world, the atmosphere, the characters - that is what makes RPG an RPG.

 

Gothic has its unique world and it's dynamic, live and interesting.

Dialogs - well, not very rich, yes. Not very many options, yes. But still, they are quite good.

Story - that's a matter of taste. Someone may like it, someone may not. It cannot be dubbed "bad" or "good".

For instnace, some people may not like Planescape: Torment's story. Well, it's their view and right. But that doesn't mean that it's bad.

 

 

 

7. The beginning level-up is too slow (Ive played for 15 hours, cheated 3 levels and I still get trashed by bloodflies)

A laughable reason, really.

It's not because the game is flawed, it's because you're not very good at it. Admit it, there's nothing wrong with that.

The game is not supposed to be easy and make a cake for a player to walk.

[Dhruin]

I must admit I would prefer Gothic had both character creation and more complex character development but it hardly disqualifies it from being an RPG. I just started replaying Ultima 7 -- and I could find many people to say Ultima 7 (or 4 or 6 or whatever) is their favourite "old school" RPG ever...no character creation, only 4 character stats. It's too simplisitic to disqualify a product from being an RPG based on one issue, other than simply not having any character development system at all.

[mkreku]

I actually prefer the rather simplistic style of character development in Gothic/Gothic 2. Some games have me calculating stats, distributing points and choosing skills ad nauseum. Gothic/Gothic 2 didn't have the perfect system by any means, but at least it let me concentrate on the gameplay more than anything else.

 

Of course, a few more fighting skills wouldn't have hurt..

[Tanuvein]

I actually prefer the rather simplistic style of character development in Gothic/Gothic 2. Some games have me calculating stats, distributing points and choosing skills ad nauseum. Gothic/Gothic 2 didn't have the perfect system by any means, but at least it let me concentrate on the gameplay more than anything else.

 

Of course, a few more fighting skills wouldn't have hurt..

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

There are rumors that Gothic III will have more complex fighting skills (not VERY complex skills, just more than the last two) and that you will do some creation before start to represent the things you learned on Khorinis before you departed.

 

However, this is not certain. There was also rumors of the one guy cursing you and you losing abilities, but that doesn't really fit with the one guys personality (I'm trying not to name him here to prevent spoilers)

 

Anyway, unless you are using NOTR, you should have no problem with Bloodflies at level 3, unless you are a mage without any spells yet (since you have to get to the monastery, that is possible).

[boldarblood]

bloodflies are way easy to kill. Switch from melee to ranged, even the lowest ranged weapon takes them out fast/easy. As you level up and spend time training combat becomes a lot more fluid and you'll have a lot more feeling of control, to the point that its almost to easy.

 

Hades One is just a miserable, wants everyone else to hate along with him. :D

[Kaftan Barlast]

Something I absolutely hate abot Gothic 2s control system is the sluggishness and unresponsiveness. Not only do I get killed rather often because my character is so slow to draw, but I often die needlessly because I cant steer properly like you should in an action game.

 

Yesterday I spent a good 10 minyutes trying to jump over a spike trap. It would have been easy, except that you never know if your char is actually going to jump when you press the button.

 

 

If this is their way to make the game more challenging, its among the most idiotic Ive ever seen. I dont know about you, but I dont find frustration the least bit enjoyable.

[taks]

Something I absolutely hate abot Gothic 2s control system is the sluggishness and unresponsiveness. Not only do I get killed rather often because my character is so slow to draw, but I often die needlessly because I cant steer properly like you should in an action game.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

that's intentional in the beginning, kaftan. the controls increase in responsiveness as your skill increases. the game is designed to actually be difficult to manage early on, however, after 10th level or so, most controls are really fluid.

taks

[Kaftan Barlast]

I think its a very very bad idea to have it that way. Having less HP and making less damage and so on is enough, not being able to control my character is just plain annoying.

 

 

I mean its exactly like you would have your cursor be really slow or erraticly moving in a regular CRPG.

 

 

There was a time in the late 90s when all makers of FPS games tried to make things more "realistic" or whatever, by shaking the screen as the character walked or having the crosshairs wobble aroud when you got hit so the rest of the enmy could mow you down as you watched helplessly. All that ever did was take away gameplay and REALLY frustrate people.

 

 

Stuff like this might make sense in some developers head but it doesnt work in reality.

[taks]

i personally kind of like it. once you get used to the G2 controls, and gain some levels, it is actually quite fun to engage in combat. i have not encountered groups larger than about 2 or 3, however, and i've heard they are much more difficult. i'll get back to it shortly and find out first hand i suppose.

taks

[One2Many]

Gothic(numero uno) was better--but if you play awhile you will find the game's strongest point--immersion.

 

Definitely.

 

If. however, playing as a white male human with above average testosterone levels is not your thing, you may not like it.

 

I don't understand this comment at all. In both Gothic games the main character is a clean slate. He has no name and his only background is that he is a prisoner. He is voiced in a very neutral, soft-spoken way. On top of this, you are given dialogue choices and decisions to make that allow you to DEFINE how aggresive you want your character to be. So I don't get the whole "above average testosterone levels" comment at all.

 

 

as far as i know, there is no story but i find the inane English part of the charm of the german/belgian games...

 

Of course there is a story. Yes, on the surface it appears to be the standard "Kill the evil dragons" thing, but its the DETAILS of how this story unfolds that pulls you in. Once you get into the motivations of the factions, the backstories of the characters you meet and so on .. you don't worry so much that the "MACRO" story isn't innovative.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

sorry not to respond earlier, elkston. first, let me clarify a bit--I did not finish the game--in fact, I didn't get very far into it at all, so my remarks about the lack of story come from that point of view. Frankly, I was disappointed in Gothic II.

 

I did love and finish Gothic, and felt that it had a fairly strong story with a few unusual twists(like taking place in a penal colony full of religious fanatics, drug-dealers and thugs, hands-on learning to hunt, etc) that made it a little more innovative than say, Morrowind.

 

My issue about the character perspective(white male etc) is that you basically are who you were in Gothic I-a convict who fought his way to the top of the food chain, yet suddenly you are back to killing oceans of low-level creatures to advance. Yes, you do some fetch and carry questing and talking with NPC's, but basically you are not going anywhere without killing things--lots of things---frequently.

 

Thus the testosterone level remark. A male human with below average aggression would not A) have survived the first prison camp, and B) want to be a combat-based fighter, thief or mage anyway. I had no fault to find with this, btw. As someone eles has remarked in this thread, combat is the traditional essential means by which characters advance in any CRPG. I really did feel, tho, that my character was pushed in certain pro-violent directions, regardless of my choices--like having to betray the thieves or side with them-very black and white.

 

But all this discussion has revived my interest--if I play again I may try the mage route--the manual kind of scared me off with its dire warnings of early weakness. :cool:

[aVENGER]

Something I absolutely hate abot Gothic 2s control system is the sluggishness and unresponsiveness. Not only do I get killed rather often because my character is so slow to draw, but I often die needlessly because I cant steer properly like you should in an action game.

 

How far did you train your weapon skill?

 

IIRC, you need at least 30% for the weapon movements to feel fluid and smooth. The damage is based on your weapon, your Strength and your skill rating combined, so wielding a slow two hander with 10% skill and 15 STR is not going to produce a great effect. Also, keep in mind that blunt weapons are better against undead and constructs than bladed weapons. Final advice: pick a weapon skill, max it out and regularly raise your Strength. If you have high STR, the difference between 100% and 30% is incredible due to the 'critical hit' system.

[Archangel]

well ... I think that gothic 2 is one of the best games that I have played in my life, you have your reasons to say that the game was bad but I also have mine to say that the game is one of the best games that I have played in my life, not only the history if not the whole context of the game and its :cool: art.

[mkreku]

Yes, you do some fetch and carry questing and talking with NPC's, but basically you are not going anywhere without killing things--lots of things---frequently.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This is not entirely true. It is possible to gain those much needed first levels just by questing in-town, where you don't have to kill anything. I don't remember the exact number, but I think someone claimed to have reached level 5 or 6 just by solving every low level (yes, FedEx-quests) quest in Khorinis. The quests get better the further you get into the game. My personal favourite is the drinking contest.. It was a bit tricky to figure out

[Kaftan Barlast]

Im now level 15 with 60% One-handed and 40 strength, and the combat control is starting to feel ok now. Not good, but adequate. I still dont stand a chance against Orcs or the thugs in the lighthouse.

 

 

But on gridning: its quite obvious that the devs expect you to kill every critter you see in order to gain exp a la mmorpg. If you dont, you cant beat the tougher enemies and make progress in the story.

[Tanuvein]

Im now level 15 with 60% One-handed and 40 strength, and the combat control is starting to feel ok now. Not good, but adequate. I still dont stand a chance against Orcs or the thugs in the lighthouse.

 

 

But on gridning: its quite obvious that the devs expect you to kill every critter you see in order to gain exp a la mmorpg. If you dont, you cant beat the tougher enemies and make progress in the story.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Ala MMORPG? What?

 

Every RPG pretty much expect you to kill what you run across...

 

Anyway, I was level four before I left Khorinis this play through (NOTR though), and I didn't finish all the quest. I wanted to go check on Lee and the boys.

 

As for the bandits at hte lighthouse, they aren't too hard pre-NOTR. However, unless you are good with bows (or are a mage), you may want to use a scroll or two. Don't worry, you can afford it.

[Ellester]

Every RPG pretty much expect you to kill what you run across...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I 100% disagree with this statement. At least you used

[Tanuvein]

That's not what I meant.

 

He said that when you see a creature you are expected to kill it. All non-humans (minus a few cases) are automatically hostile, much like a random baddy you'd run acrossed in any other game. Of course they expect you to kill it, or it wouldn't attack you. Its just there for cannon fodder.

 

That's pretty much the purpose of all auto-hostile creatures in any RPG. To either find a way around it or find some way to make it dead.

[Ellester]

That's not what I meant.

 

He said that when you see a creature you are expected to kill it. All non-humans (minus a few cases) are automatically hostile, much like a random baddy you'd run acrossed in any other game. Of course they expect you to kill it, or it wouldn't attack you. Its just there for cannon fodder.

 

That's pretty much the purpose of all auto-hostile creatures in any RPG. To either find a way around it or find some way to make it dead.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Fair enough, if you use non-humans and the turn hostile, then dialog or another option is usually not a choice. But there should be an option to prevent it from becoming hostile, like stealth should be an option to bypass a creature. The Guardian in IWD2 was a boss battle and you were not required to fight it, things like this should be available to the player. Also in the BG games, bears were not hostile unless you went up to its face, then it would become hostile. So, you could see one but just skirt around it and you didn

[Tanuvein]

That's not what I meant.

 

He said that when you see a creature you are expected to kill it. All non-humans (minus a few cases) are automatically hostile, much like a random baddy you'd run acrossed in any other game. Of course they expect you to kill it, or it wouldn't attack you. Its just there for cannon fodder.

 

That's pretty much the purpose of all auto-hostile creatures in any RPG. To either find a way around it or find some way to make it dead.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Fair enough, if you use non-humans and the turn hostile, then dialog or another option is usually not a choice. But there should be an option to prevent it from becoming hostile, like stealth should be an option to bypass a creature. The Guardian in IWD2 was a boss battle and you were not required to fight it, things like this should be available to the player. Also in the BG games, bears were not hostile unless you went up to its face, then it would become hostile. So, you could see one but just skirt around it and you didn?t have to fight it. You had a choice to make that a combat encounter or not. But if a monster turns hostile, then yes you have two choices, run or fight. I?ll agree with that.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Almost all of the hostiles in Gothic and Gothic II give you the opportunity to run - they growl or raise their weapons a few times in your direction. You have about 2 seconds to retreat if you want.

 

You can also sneak past most things.

 

The world is largish, and only about 30% of it is required to be explored for the main quest. The rest is just some xp and nice loot from finding things. And its always good to explore.

 

Gothic doesn't really have 'bosses' other than the Sleeper in the first and dragons in the second, but it has some really tough rare enemies you can run across, like demon lords and black trolls.

 

Also, you can resolve almost all dialogue peacefully. If you want. But this is a game where, even if you are playing a morally righteous character, you can often beat the crap out of people without feeling bad.

[mkreku]

Also, when fighting a friendly humanoid in Gothic/Gothic 2 you have a choice if you want to just beat that person up or actually kill him. The fight ends when your opponent (or you!) have 0 hp, and then you can decide whether to perform the killing blow or just walk away. It works well, and there's even a scroll you can purchase that wipes the memory of the person you just fought, so it's possible to beat them unconscious, steal all their money and possesions, erase their memory with the scroll, and still be friends with them when they wake up

[Serious Callers Only]

Also, when fighting a friendly humanoid in Gothic/Gothic 2 you have a choice if you want to just beat that person up or actually kill him. The fight ends when your opponent (or you!) have 0 hp, and then you can decide whether to perform the killing blow or just walk away. It works well, and there's even a scroll you can purchase that wipes the memory of the person you just fought, so it's possible to beat them unconscious, steal all their money and possesions, erase their memory with the scroll, and still be friends with them when they wake up

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yeah. That was great.

[Tanuvein]

Also, when fighting a friendly humanoid in Gothic/Gothic 2 you have a choice if you want to just beat that person up or actually kill him. The fight ends when your opponent (or you!) have 0 hp, and then you can decide whether to perform the killing blow or just walk away. It works well, and there's even a scroll you can purchase that wipes the memory of the person you just fought, so it's possible to beat them unconscious, steal all their money and possesions, erase their memory with the scroll, and still be friends with them when they wake up

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yeah. That was great.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Make sure no one else sees you though.

 

Unfortunately magic and arrows are instakill. Which sucks for me, since I usually play a mage with no points in physicalness.

 

However, this play through as a merc is nice <3

[taks]

Im now level 15 with 60% One-handed and 40 strength, and the combat control is starting to feel ok now. Not good, but adequate. I still dont stand a chance against Orcs or the thugs in the lighthouse.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

thugs in lighthouse: i've heard level 20, 25 for sure.

orcs: i was killing them at level 10??? of course, only one at a time.

 

taks

[Tanuvein]

Im now level 15 with 60% One-handed and 40 strength, and the combat control is starting to feel ok now. Not good, but adequate. I still dont stand a chance against Orcs or the thugs in the lighthouse.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

thugs in lighthouse: i've heard level 20, 25 for sure.

orcs: i was killing them at level 10??? of course, only one at a time.

 

taks

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

I killed the bandits at level 10, but I was a mage and fire arrow had a longer range than real arrows.

 

As a merc this play through, I'm level 17 and they rape me. But I'm using NOTR, so that's probably why.

 

I can't even begin to hurt an orc, and I KNOW I could kill them at level 12 or so before, if I could seperate them. But again, I was a mage. I kind of wish I was a mage this time, but the fact that most of the addon is Chapter 1 and 2, when your magic is mediocre, gave me the impression it would be too hard.

[Drakron]

I remenber I eventually quit because I got feed up with combat, managed to reach the dragons slaying quests and killed one or two.