The Kreia/Kae Question

[Zilod]

i just say a thing.... midichlorians.....

 

 

the exile took some anthibiotics and killed all his minimicrobs while Nihilus have an infestation of hungry cannibal midichlorians.

 

 

a part of jokes i found the layer example very pertinet in a force vision of the Exile and Nihilus (at least with my force vision eheh)

[The Great Phantom]

No, the Exile invested in using Gizka as a form of leech, and sucked the medi-clorians out.

 

@ Radical:

No contest, really. Kotor is Revan's Tale, Movies are Anakin's Tale. They both fulfilled (or will fulfill) something great and wonderful.

I prefer Kotor because of Revan, and the emotional attachements I've made with him (Bastila is and always will be Revan's Girl). The movies are good, but I never liked "Modern" Star Wars. The ancient stuff has less limitations, and the techniques are new and not yet 'forbidden'...

[The Great Phantom]

Hurry up, radical!

 

Radical, why is it taking you 15+ minutes to type a reply??? I have to go, and would like to wrap things up already!!!

[Darth Ricmu]

Anybody recall a moment when you board the ebon hawk and get a cut scene off disciple not seeing kreia as she is there...............

[Oerwinde]

Heres something that screws your theory. The Exile knew her mother. You can get the conversation where you tell her that her mother was a jedi and a great warrior without talking to Kreia or Handmaiden about it beforehand.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Exile only comments on knowing the mother once Kreia has told the Exile about her the exile didnt actually no her.

 

Kreia could be the Handmaidens mother, Kreia said Arren Kae was beautiful, Atton said Kreia was beautiful once, darkside makes Kreia look old. Kreia could hav Trained REvan under her name Arren Kae and then as Traya (perhaps shes the betrayer because she betrayed the jedi beliefs by falling in love and having a baby)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I got the conversation point with Handmaiden without Kreia saying anything.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Anybody recall a moment when you board the ebon hawk and get a cut scene off disciple not seeing kreia as she is there...............

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

There are a couple of those. The last one I think is where he figures out what is going on with the echoes(smart cookie) and she wipes the knowledge from his mind.

[Wodan]

One big hole in this theory is that Kreia was already Darth Traya when the mandalorian wars started. She trained Revan when he was a padawan, and again later when he found her on M-V. Kae was mearly a jedi knight that joined Revan, long after Kreia had already left the jedi order, infact Kae wasn't exiled for 10 years after handmaiden was born. Heck, Kreia might have helped in the training of Kae. We'll never know.

[kitty_with_a_lightsaber]

Anyone ever notice that in Kreia's Movie sequence(The one initiated by dialog where sion beats the snot out of her) that her hand is gone in that version of the film as well? O_o...curious little oddity eh? Either a big mistake on the developers part or they were hinting at something....

 

 

My opinion? And this is far out there. She didnt have a hand to begin with...it was an illusion put into the exile and atton's minds for that short period of time. The holding of weapons(Two weapons only or double bladed sword since she cant hold blaster rifles) was sustainted through the force, which wouldnt be hard to do considering her trick near the end with the three floating Lightsabers...

 

Hmm....curious o_o;

[Wycked]

I think Kae is one too many personalities given to Kreia. No wonder she's so messed up in the head. I mean, first a Jedi Master, then Darth Traya, then Kreia, then she's Darth Traya and Kreia. It's a wonder that she manages to keep some form of sanity with all those personality shifts.

 

Not to mention she got other problems, like losing her sight and losing her hand. I think Kae is just one personality too much.

[stoffe -mkb-]

With the council dead, no one would be able to tell Handmaiden about her heritage, such as it is.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I haven't played it with Disciple in my party, but from reading the dialog.tlk file I have the impression that he would have been able to recognise Master Kae. It's interesting that he often finds himself pausing and unable to remember various details of the Jedi masters. I wonder if there's any indication of Kreia imposing a telepathic memory block on him as she's done with others like T3.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

The Disciple does recognize Kreia, though he never tells from where. I assume its from when he was a Jedi initiate as a young boy on Dantooine (where he first met the Exile when he was briefly trained in the Force by her, before the war).

 

Kreia also messes with his head quite a bit. At first she masks her presence from him just like she does with the Jedi Masters, and then she makes him forget what he discovers about what's wrong with the Force. It's in a series of cutscenes on the Ebon Hawk. The dialog in the last one goes something like:

 

---------------

 

Kreia: At last you understand, tiny Jedi.

 

Disciple: You - who are you? What are you doing on this sh..?

 

Kreia: Enough. What did you see in the web of worlds that have died? What did you see when you saw it through the Force?

 

Disciple: I see the death of the galaxy. Of life. At first... I thought it was just conquest, but it's more terrible than that. It's an echo, spreading outwards, killing everything. It's not possible.

 

Kreia: You are a wasted pawn of the Republic, young one. You could have been so much more, even with your wide-eyed innocence, your naive love for others. Now you understand the magnitude of what is being done.

 

Disciple: I know you - not even the markings of the dark side can hide it. Why have you done this?

 

Kreia: I? Do you think I seek the death of all living things? There is no victory in such things. I do not want to win our war like this, little Jedi. When I win, I wish it to be because I was right, my teachings true.

 

Disciple: How long have you been here, among us?

 

Kreia: You know the truth. I have always been here, watching and listening to the echo you have found. You know its source and what must be done.

 

Disciple: I will not let you hurt her.

 

Kreia: Little Jedi, you cannot stop me. But you will forget this. Your mind is worse than the others, so open, so trusting. Your feelings for her are your weakness. Yet I will gift you with this - you will remember what you have you discovered... when the time is correct. Know that you have seen what formerly only I knew - now we shall see if you have the strength to stop what comes.

[The Great Phantom]

Well, there's proof enough that Kreia's plan was self-destructive... Even she knew it, but was going just to prove a point! Sheesh, I thought she was smarter...

[Wodan]

Anyone ever notice that in Kreia's Movie sequence(The one initiated by dialog where sion beats the snot out of her) that her hand is gone in that version of the film as well? O_o...curious little oddity eh? Either a big mistake on the developers part or they were hinting at something....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Bingo. Though look at it like this, she was probably suppost to have lost the hand already by the time the exile joins up with her, but they decided that it would be more interesting if she lost it protecting him. Lots of stuff was changed last minute, and I doubt they had time to "fix" the movie.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

The Disciple does recognize Kreia, though he never tells from where. I assume its from when he was a Jedi initiate as a young boy on Dantooine (where he first met the Exile when he was briefly trained in the Force by her, before the war).

 

Kreia also messes with his head quite a bit. At first she masks her presence from him just like she does with the Jedi Masters, and then she makes him forget what he discovers about what's wrong with the Force. It's in a series of cutscenes on the Ebon Hawk. The dialog in the last one goes something like:

 

---------------

 

Kreia: At last you understand, tiny Jedi.

 

Disciple: You - who are you? What are you doing on this sh..?

 

Kreia: Enough. What did you see in the web of worlds that have died? What did you see when you saw it through the Force?

 

Disciple: I see the death of the galaxy. Of life. At first... I thought it was just conquest, but it's more terrible than that. It's an echo, spreading outwards, killing everything. It's not possible.

 

Kreia: You are a wasted pawn of the Republic, young one. You could have been so much more, even with your wide-eyed innocence, your naive love for others. Now you understand the magnitude of what is being done.

 

Disciple: I know you - not even the markings of the dark side can hide it. Why have you done this?

 

Kreia: I? Do you think I seek the death of all living things? There is no victory in such things. I do not want to win our war like this, little Jedi. When I win, I wish it to be because I was right, my teachings true.

 

Disciple: How long have you been here, among us?

 

Kreia: You know the truth. I have always been here, watching and listening to the echo you have found. You know its source and what must be done.

 

Disciple: I will not let you hurt her.

 

Kreia: Little Jedi, you cannot stop me. But you will forget this. Your mind is worse than the others, so open, so trusting. Your feelings for her are your weakness. Yet I will gift you with this - you will remember what you have you discovered... when the time is correct. Know that you have seen what formerly only I knew - now we shall see if you have the strength to stop what comes.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

If you did that from memory I am impressed.

[phiont]

I haven't played it with Disciple in my party, but from reading the dialog.tlk file I have the impression that he would have been able to recognise Master Kae.  It's interesting that he often finds himself pausing and unable to remember various details of the Jedi masters.  I wonder if there's any indication of Kreia imposing a telepathic memory block on him as she's done with others like T3.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, I've now been playing with Disciple in my party and his interaction with Kreia was exactly as I suspected; even better.

 

 

Kreia (invisible) speaking into Disciple's mind:

 

"Jedi."

"Betrayer."

"All thoughts of me will slide from your vision, from your mind, like water."

"You know who I am. But you will be unable to voice it, to remember it."

"What does a Jedi see?"

"Only what I allow them to see."

 

 

And how does Kreia know Disciple? It's likely that Kreia/Kae was to be his Master.

 

"The one who was to be my Master was lost at Malachor V." -- Disciple to the Exile

[The Great Phantom]

Well, that gives a bit more insight into Kreia.

 

Her whole point was to show the Jedi the errors of their ways, and that the Exile was beautiful, but that is ONLY what she WANTED them to see. Perhaps that is all she wanted to see... Later on the Disciple tells Kreia that he sees the Death of all life, and Kreia says that she is doing it just to prove a point... Now if that's not insane, then I don't know what is...

[lowiej]

well actually Forna. K. Shan The exile was to be disciples master

[Jedi Master D Murda]

One big hole in this theory is that Kreia was already Darth Traya when the mandalorian wars started. She trained Revan when he was a padawan, and again later when he found her on M-V. Kae was mearly a jedi knight that joined Revan, long after Kreia had already left the jedi order, infact Kae wasn't exiled for 10 years after handmaiden was born. Heck, Kreia might have helped in the training of Kae. We'll never know.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I don't think that is right. Kreia, like Nihilus and Sion, was drawn to the Trayus Academy after the destruction of M5 which is when the Mandalorian Wars ended. Also the reason why I don't really think Kreia is Kae is because of what the Disciple tells you. He says that Revan had many masters, Dorak, somebody else and Kae but then went back to his first master, Kreia, so that he can leave the order forever. From that he never says that Kae was his first master but just one of the masters that trained him.

 

well actually Forna. K. Shan The exile was to be disciples master

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yup. He says it himself.

[phiont]

well actually Forna. K. Shan The exile was to be disciples master

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yup. He says it himself.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I understood that Disciple had hoped Exile would become his master, but I'm not sure that the Exile had actually been Disciple's intended master. In fact, I don't even recall the Exile ever having reached the level of Jedi Master. And if the Exile actually was to be Disciple's master then who was "lost at Malachor V" ?

 

Exile: "Are your feelings on this matter clear?"

 

Disciple: "They are. The one who was to be my Master was lost at Malachor V. I want you to teach me the ways of the Force."

 

 

Also, why does Kreia refer to Disciple as "Betrayer" ?

 

She also tell's him, "You are a wasted pawn of the Republic, young one. You could have been so much more..."

 

That's when Disciple tells her, "I know you - not even the markings of the dark side can hide it."

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Exile:  "Are your feelings on this matter clear?"

 

Disciple:  "They are. The one who was to be my Master was lost at Malachor V. I want you to teach me the ways of the Force."

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

The exile was "lost" on Malachor V.

 

I think he may refer to it at some point you being lost to the Jedi.

[phiont]

I think he may refer to it at some point you being lost to the Jedi.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

According to Disciple:

 

"And I knew that if I were to have a Master, I would want it to be you. And then you went to war.

Many Jedi went to war, and the Jedi Masters proclaimed that you were Jedi no longer.

I knew at that moment, that if you would no longer be a Jedi, then you must be correct.

I realized I did not want to be a Jedi - instead, I wished to follow your path.

And in any event, there was no one to train me, even if I wished it.

They all went to war, as I grew past the age of acceptance."

 

Nothing very specific about the Exile being "lost to the Jedi" on Malachor V. Although, we do know that Master Kae was lost on Malachor V, even though her body was never found.

 

And don't forget that when Master Kavar finally meets Kreia on Dantooine he say, "I thought you had died in the Mandalorian Wars..."

[phiont]

Also the reason why I don't really think Kreia is Kae is because of what the Disciple tells you. He says that Revan had many masters, Dorak, somebody else and Kae but then went back to his first master, Kreia, so that he can leave the order forever. From that he never says that Kae was his first master but just one of the masters that trained him.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

But he doesn't say that Kae was not his first master, either.

 

Consider the following 2 quotes:

 

"As a Padawan, Revan was trained by Master Kae, before she was exiled. Strange, I do not recall who Revan's master was after that. And it is said that he went to his first - and final - master to learn how to leave the order entirely, as she had." -- Disciple

 

"He came to me, yes. Both before and after, before Revan knew himself. And after, in the times when Revan was coming into his own and learning he was more than he had been told. At one time, Revan was my Padawan. In times past, long ago. But Revan, when he had learned all he could, had other masters... that fool Zhar, and other Jedi on other planets. He learned from each. But in the end, he turned back to me. When he realized there was nothing more to be learned from the Jedi - except how one could leave them forever." -- Kreia

 

According to your interpretation Revan must have became Kae's Padawan at some point after being Kreia's Padawan. Disciple doesn't recall who Revan's Masters were after Kae, however he must not remember who Revan's Master was before Kae either to have forgotten about Kreia. And then there's the coincidence of these two Masters both being exiled, following Revan to war and being thought to have died without either body being recovered.

[Jedi Master D Murda]

Also the reason why I don't really think Kreia is Kae is because of what the Disciple tells you. He says that Revan had many masters, Dorak, somebody else and Kae but then went back to his first master, Kreia, so that he can leave the order forever. From that he never says that Kae was his first master but just one of the masters that trained him.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

But he doesn't say that Kae was not his first master, either.

 

Consider the following 2 quotes:

 

"As a Padawan, Revan was trained by Master Kae, before she was exiled. Strange, I do not recall who Revan's master was after that. And it is said that he went to his first - and final - master to learn how to leave the order entirely, as she had." -- Disciple

 

"He came to me, yes. Both before and after, before Revan knew himself. And after, in the times when Revan was coming into his own and learning he was more than he had been told. At one time, Revan was my Padawan. In times past, long ago. But Revan, when he had learned all he could, had other masters... that fool Zhar, and other Jedi on other planets. He learned from each. But in the end, he turned back to me. When he realized there was nothing more to be learned from the Jedi - except how one could leave them forever." -- Kreia

 

According to your interpretation Revan must have became Kae's Padawan at some point after being Kreia's Padawan. Disciple doesn't recall who Revan's Masters were after Kae, however he must not remember who Revan's Master was before Kae either to have forgotten about Kreia. And then there's the coincidence of these two Masters both being exiled, following Revan to war and being thought to have died without either body being recovered.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

First off that Dicsciple quote is wrong, I've played the game well enough to assure you of that and if it is in the game you will have to direct me towards it. I was saying that Disciple said that Revan had many masters Dorak, Zhar and Kae and went back to his first master. Why not just say he went back to Kae instead of his first master. And Revan's masters did not have to be in chronological order as you make it seem. I think Padawans only serve one master and after they have obtained the rank of Knight they seek out the teachings of other masters. Don't really think Revan was still a Padawan after he left Kreia.

 

Plus if Kreia is Kae why would she be exiled twice. She was exiled for her teachings only then to be exiled yet again for having a child. That doesn't make much sense to me.

 

This Kreia/Kae thing still doesn't make sense to me.

[The Great Phantom]

Jedi in this era (after the recent restructuring discouraging love and whatnot) don't necessarily serve one Master. Revan was a nomad, going from Master to Master, because nobody could satisfy his lust for knowledge for very long. Several other Jedi in the era also did similar things, if I remember right... Not many, though.

[Jedi Master D Murda]

Now that you say it I was wrong because I remember Zhar saying Revan was his padawan once. My mistake.

[LadyCrimson]

Why would Kreia say "And so it ends" ? What has ended?

And why didn't she say anything like that upon the jedification of Mira or Atton?

 

Forgive me, but a page after that I couldn't read any more giant blocks of quotes and replies, so I don't know if this was mentioned already -

 

But Kreia says that exact same line when you turn Disciple into a Jedi. Whether that disrupts the theorization of whether she's Handmaiden's mother I don't know - but I just took it to mean that she was commenting to herself on how the Exile training new Jedi was a step towards...something. Perhaps the end of the Exile's self-imposed exile/desire to run away from the Force etc?

 

I think making assumptions of plot based on whether or not the Exile is male/female is kind of moot...a lot of the stuff seems to duplicate to a degree, only because you have Handmaiden/Disciple or male/female Exile you can put a different slant to the potential meaning behind the words. (EDIT - there's probably a universal plot notion behind many of those types of things, rather than specific character-dialogue dependant ones)

 

Oh...and...I thought that the Handmaiden that you talk to in the Secret Acad. (the 'last Handmaiden') is The Handmaiden? - ie, if you're male, she joins you later when you leave the Academy - if you're female, she does not, and that's all. If that's the case, then yes, as a female Exile you do meet the Handmaiden, if briefly.