Yet another question about the ending

[The Great Phantom]

No, Blessed Sith, you have pretty much summed up my point.

[Angry Sherpa]

Hello.

 

Ok, I know there's been a lot of discussion going on about the ending and read quite a bit of it, and I've skimmed over the cut dialog parts, but I just finished the game and still don't get some very basic things. I don't really care about the the smaller lose ends.

 

 

Here's what I figure:

 

Kreia is not a happy woman. Kreia does not like that the force dominates her destiny, whatever side of it she choses. Kreia decides to destroy the force. Good for you Kreia, that you are confronting your problems.

Kreia has a lucky day, because Kreia finds the "exile", who, a natural born leader, caused a gazillion deaths in the mandalorian war and has thereby gained a weird detachment from the force. Kreia uses the exile to kill off some Sith and Jedi alike and leads him along his past to make him all squishy inside. Well done, Kreia.

Then, Kreia lures the exile to Malachor. The exile cleans Kreia's pet Sith academy and kills her favourite Sith with the vulcanic skin problems. How very considerate of the exile, just according to her plan.

 

And then come the things I don't get at all. The exile confronts Kreia. After having to fight her, I tell her to rest.  (I played the light side, by the way):

 

- No more mention of the ultimate force-destroying kablooie. What action of the exile, exactly, could have "destroyed the force"? Or was that just a delusion of the Sith Kreia, who was corrupted and driven insane by the dark side? Does the dark side ending end with doomsday, or the player as an over-the-counter Sith overlord?

 

- Kreia tells me somehing like "Revan and the ones like him were not the real Sith. You must prepare for the real threat." Hu? Ok, there were hints in the game that Revan was trying to unify the galaxy against a larger thread.

[The Great Phantom]

What has been said over and over?

 

No offense, of course.

[Drakron]

When you leave Peragus and speak with Kreia, she tells you who the true Sith lords are.  You ask her about the enemy you face, and in the conversation she tells you that the Jedi Civil War isn't the first time something of the type has happened.  She reveals that the ones who are considered the true Sith lords are the first ones who broke away from the Jedi.  They waged war against every Jedi in they path, and raged across the galaxy, until the Jedi finally forced them to leave.  It is their teachings that all other Sith base theirs upon.  It is the hatred that pulses through there veins that all other Sith get theirs from.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yes and then they found the Sith race and created the Sith, before that they were just dark siders.

 

The issue is the Sith are the result of those former Jedi and the Sith race, before it there was no Sith in the sense of idiology, teachings and technology since it only happened when those former Jedi and the Sith race meet.

 

One of the major oversights of this gane is the lack of references to the Great Hyperspace War (Republic vs Sith Empire) and it gives the (wrong) idea the Sith Empire of old is still around as the Republic destroyed 1000 years before the game takes place.

 

Also I found the "Jedi Civil War" being a really stupid name, its would be the same as calling WWII the "European Civil War".

[AlanC9]

One of the major oversights of this gane is the lack of references to the Great Hyperspace War (Republic vs Sith Empire) and it gives the (wrong) idea the Sith Empire of old is still around as the Republic destroyed 1000 years before the game takes place.

 

Or this is a continuity change, and what you thought you knew about the Great Hyperspace War turns out to have been incorrect.

 

Also I found the "Jedi Civil War" being a really stupid name, its would be the same as calling WWII the "European Civil War".

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Hey, didn't you just finish telling me that there wasn't any Sith Empire as a distinct political entity in this period? If the bulk of the participants were Republic citizens, then the war, by definition, is a civil war.

[Drakron]

1) Continuity rarely changes, TSL just gives the wrong impression of the Sith Empire.

 

The Great Hyperspace War is not going to be changed just because someone decided to ignored it.

 

2) The Revan/Malak Sith empire existed as a political force as well as a military force, even if they are made of former Jedi the bunk of their forces would be made of former Republic forces making it far more a "Republic Civil War" that a "Jedi Civil War" since there was no split of the Jedi Order, they remained unchanged despite some members join the Sith side but that makes then defectors.

 

The Sith Empire ended at the Great Hyperspace War, Kun and Revan/Malak tried to recreate it but they were ultimatly defected by the Republic.

[Lei Kung]

To a farmer on Dantooine... Revan and Malak, two powerful Jedi, put away the brown robes, get some black armor and start taking over the galaxy. Jedi stop them, barely.

 

The reasons for the war were totally based on the will of Revan and Malak. It doesn't matter what a historian on Coruscant might classify the war as, most people who got their planets devastated saw it as a Jedi Civil War, so that's what it's called. It's not like there's any Jedi visible enough to debate the issue.

[The Great Phantom]

Nowhere does it say that all of the Sith were destroyed at the end of the GHW... Somebody could have been sent to Zolost (or whatever it's called), and the Republic never did a thourough search of the Sith Empire, so the likelyhood that SOMETHING survived is pretty high... Just pointing that out.

[Mondo]

GHW just ends with the ships getting destroyed, they never touch the planets.

[Drakron]

GHW just ends with the ships getting destroyed, they never touch the planets.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I am damn sure the Republic would just left then alone and allow then to rebuild their fleets so they could attack again ...

 

NOT.

[AlanC9]

1) Continuity rarely changes, TSL just gives the wrong impression of the Sith Empire.

 

The Great Hyperspace War is not going to be changed just because someone decided to ignored it.

 

Nonsense. Continuity is whatever LA says it is. They can change it at will.

 

2) The Revan/Malak Sith empire existed as a political force as well as a military force, even if they are made of former Jedi the bunk of their forces would be made of former Republic forces making it far more a "Republic Civil War" that a "Jedi Civil War" since there was no split of the Jedi Order, they remained unchanged despite some members join the Sith side but that makes then defectors.

 

Yes, it is more of a Republic Civil War. But Jedi Civil War nicely encapsulates what the war was about.

[Mondo]

I am damn sure the Republic would just left then alone and allow then to rebuild their fleets so they could attack again ...

 

NOT.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

That's exactly what happened though! They bailed after they thought Naga Sadow was dead.

 

 

lol here it is..

 

[KurtDunniehue]

You know this thread brings up interestingquestions about the nature of the force itself.

 

For instance, when Jedi use it, not giving into their base emotions (A very core part of every being) then good things happen and everyone are hippies and all happy.

 

But if someone gives into their emotions, and tries to harness the force, rather than the force 'harnessing' them, they become an outright tool for evil.

 

Could we say that's the force doing that? Making otherwise well-meaning people into gratefully sadistic murdering bastards?

 

Is the force in any way aware of it's actions or influence on the universe at large? Is it itself aware, or just an automoton of the SW: Universe, as present as gravity and the nature of light/mass, and other physics constants?

 

In any case, it seems like the Force has little to no benevolence to speak of...

[Mondo]

Using the dark side of the force is like abusing prescription drugs in a odd way. People think they would never use more then they needed, but it becomes a quick and easy fix.

[The Great Phantom]

The Dark Side only relies on negative emotions: Anger, sorrow, etc., things that bring sadness.

 

The Light Side looks for balance. The Jedi Code originally stated that having emotions was part of being human, but control was essential.

 

Thanks for that pic, Mondo, I couldn't find my copy.

[KurtDunniehue]

So all the indicators in KoTOR, and KoTOR2 Jedi disciplines are a result of misinterpretation and revisement?

 

But even with that, why shouldn't something that can be used to do such horrible things be destroyed? Like Malak making Balista into a faithful servant of the Darkside?

 

Even if the positives equal out the negatives, why shouldn't something that can bring that negative to a much larger spectrum be destroyed, and let the positives work their way in, in the usual way?

 

If I was in the Jedi Counsel, I'd also see the Force as more of a yoke over all of life, and seek ways to free everything from it.

[tmp]

If I was in the Jedi Counsel, I'd also see the Force as more of a yoke over all of life, and seek ways to free everything from it.

This would be essentially seeking a way to cut yourself from a drug that makes you superior to most of population and able to do things a few can do.

 

Even the Jedi aren't selfless enough for that, no matter how high opinion they have on themselves... the lure is too sweet, and too strong. Once you go Force, you never go back. Especially when you have someone like Revan around, who'll manipulate events to make you experience just how superior you can get if you give yourself fully to your addiction.

 

The exile was the only person known that's strong enough to eventually turn that call down. (at least that's how i understand the 'hole in the Force' thing... she's the only 'place' devoid of the force, because she actively refused to let it flow through her anymore, shielded herself from it if you will

[KurtDunniehue]

But what if it could be done?

 

What if there was a story, set far after Return of the Jedi, where there's a new Jedi Order, and a new breed of Fallen Jedi on the horizon. What if a Jedi Master forsees the disaster to come, looks into the Archives for answers on how to stop it, but only sees the cycle repeat itself with mechanically rythmic repetition throughout history.

 

So what if he asks himself 'Why not destroy it?' And 'Can it be destroyed, or Severed from life?' Also, 'What's the worst thing that could happen,' and 'What would be the price?'

 

But then he might find ways to destroy the force in all things, or a theory in how it might work. To create an 'Echo' that would not destroy life, but just the force? What kind of horrible events would he have to set in motion to achieve this, and would the universe at large be any better off when it's all over?

 

And finally, would he have the resolve to go through with it?

[AlanC9]

Anyone remember the old Infocom game "Spellbreaker"? to save humanity you destroy magic itself.

[The Great Phantom]

Well, the whole Destroy the Force thing just doesn't fit into the Star Wars Universe, because life IS the Force, and vice versa. It just doesn't fit in... another universe, sure, but not SW.

 

We're getting too detailed, the Death of the Force was never meant to be, and the whole point of this game was to serve as a bridge between I and III, as far as I can tell.

 

Kreia was twisted, and didn't succeed, for a definite reason. Go play something else, like Spellbreaker, if you want to destroy a 'mystical' force that binds everything.

[KurtDunniehue]

Well if that was so, then how much of an abomination would the Exile be? I think one of the points of the KoTOR endgame was that it was possible to live outside of the force entirely, in this interpretation of the SW universe.

 

And why wouldn't the 'death of the force' fit into the SW universe? It would be one hell of a finale, wouldn't it?

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Anyone remember the old Infocom game "Spellbreaker"? to save humanity you destroy magic itself.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Not familiar with the game, but it's not an uncommon theme.

 

Final Fantasy X is similiar.

[Bless]

So we deal with imperfect things or things that may cause bad situations by destroying them?

 

Everything comes with its price. Nothing is purely good or bad. Everything is balanced. To destroy the Force would be like destroying energy. It isn't gonna happen and it's stupid to do so.

 

Someone cutting themselves off from the Force is vastly different from completely stripping the Force out of the Galaxy against others wills "for their own good" or for what "may happen in the future."

 

Good intentions pave the road to hell.

 

No utopia can ever exist. So even if new Jedi saw that soon there would be fallen Jedi to challenge them, who are they to judge from their seats of self-righteousness what is good and bad? What is right for the universe? It needs to be balanced and to only have the "light" or the one side of the Force wouldn't itself be right. The Force is neither dark nor light, so why are only the "light guys" the good guys? The Force doesn't judge itself in such terms.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

[quote name='Bless

[KurtDunniehue]

And looks like someone's going straight to the heart of the matter already.

 

What would actually happen, with this idealistic Jedi, is that he would set forth a series of events that would be a cataclysmic and horrible end to many things, but would be ultimately unable to destroy the force, or he would die with the force, only having the knowledge that if it isn't Sith and Jedi that cause such widespread death, mayhem and destruction, it'll just be something else.

 

The idea of this story isn't something insightful, or some natural progression of the SW Universe. What it really is, is something that I believe is the most faciniating and entertaining genre of stories, which is Tragedies.

 

Flawed, mal-adjusted heros who set out to do good, great things, who are ideal in every way to be a hero, except for one vital character flaw which ultimately brings their downfall.

 

But maybe it is about progression. Maybe it is about a solid conclusion to the whole SW Universe. Because the whole mythos appeals to me on so many levels, but I am infuriated with the everlasting continuity that it has. Same reason I stopped following Comic Books. It's like reading a whole book that features no punctuation whatsoever. Just open-ended thoughts and ideas that go on forever in a commonly infuriating way.