Review/Rant/Hopes for the future

[chibijulian]

Ok, I just finished KotOr 2 for the PC. If it matters I was a LS Guardian/WM.

 

First of all i'd like to point out that i was absolutely blown away by the depth given to the story and to Kreia herself, possibly one of the best characters I have ever come across in a game. Forget the Jedi Masters, they got nothing on her. All in all the story is good, albeit obviously the ending was rushed and plotholes are plenty. But this is certainly NOT what my rant is about, as it would be silly to rant in a new topic all that people have been writing in this forum for ages.

 

What I'd like to complain about is how the game incorporated combat. A lightsaber is not a sword. Why is strenght determining how much damage someone can cause with a lightsaber??? It's a friggin laser that cuts thru anything upon contact!!! The only thing strenght could possibly influence on is when 2 sabers lock, but even so usually in the movies the "unlocking" is done using a force power or with a fast movement.

 

The feat lightsaber finesse is not enough, lightsabers should be entirely dex based. No jedis are muscular and wear heavy armors,they are nimble and light. THATS the whole fun of playing a jedi, if I wanted to play arnold i'd play NWN as a barbarian armed with a great axe.

 

Furthermore, that is part of what separates jedis from common characters, like soldiers, who in fact would have to rely on strenght, and that is why you cant "turn" someone into a jedi with the blink of an eye, jedis are trained since the cradle, and not lifting weights (actually the opposite since sabers almost dont have weight) but with little remotes shooting blaster shots at them that they have to reflect.

 

You might say "but that is how the engine incorporates combat !!1 LOL" but thats not enough for me. This engine was already modified from NWN, it could have been modified further to separate even more regular characters from jedi. I a patch is coming how to fix a lot of the problems, I hope it also takes this into account,besides the obvious BAB progression problems.

 

Another thing that upsets me since KotOR I is how 2 lightsabers or a saber staff are always more powerful than a single saber, which totally ruins the experience for me. That really really needs to be better balanced, or make the choice merely a cosmetic one. In jedi academy this was better balanced by giving more styles of combat available for single hilts.

 

As for KotOR3, what i'd like to see is the return of the sanity in terms of who gets to be a jedi and who does not. I'd like to see a main character who has been trained to be a jedi since a small child, like bastila. I'd like to see combat as detailed and graphically pleasant as jade empire seems to possess. i'd like to see jedi using the force to disarm their opponents of blasters and swords, i'd like to see dismemberments or at least better effects (like in jedi academy) when a saber cuts thru someone, and I'd like to see the coreography used in the movies for lightsaber combat, i'd like to see jedi using their saber to absorb force lightning like obi wan does in episode 2.

 

Also, can we please drop the outer rim?? its old,its tired, lets go to the core worlds, lets visit coruscant, naboo, etc. lets us find some real jedi holocrons and gain habilities by it, (as a sidequest maybe?) lets visit the birthplace of the real sith, add some actual space shooter minigame, tell us the story of the birth of the jedi as force users.

 

PS: sorry for the double post, it was not my fault

[chibijulian]

The rant goes on. Another thing that bugs me is the whole intelligence attribute. It's used to determine how many skill points you get,and to me that doesnt make any sense. The way I'd make would be something like this:

 

Lets say you start with Dex 16 with is +3. That means you should have 3 skill points/ level to spend on dex based skills like security. Same goes for wisdom, charisma, intelligence and so on. The number of point you spend on an attribute should determine how many skill points you should have on that skill. That way we could use attribute points more efficiently than being forced to put 16 on int to unlock dialogues,create items and so on.

 

Another thing is, cortosis weave on swords should be something rare and that should have to be earned by means of upgrade,so that lightsabers could cut thru swords in game. This is 4000 years before the trilogy,the jedi are nearly extinct and yet everyone in the game has "saber resistant" swords. Why not have weaker enemies without this benefit? Jedis are so superior in the field of battle, but i feel this has yet to be incorporated in the game by any means other than stats increased.

[Volourn]

Intelligence for skill points makes a lot fos ense. Afterall, intelligence is what dtermines one's ability to learn. You could be the most dexteriosu being in the world; but if youa re retarded youa ren't gonna learn how to pick that lock properly..

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

The rant goes on. Another thing that bugs me is the whole intelligence attribute. It's used to determine how many skill points you get,and to me that doesnt make any sense. The way I'd make would be something like this:

 

Lets say you start with Dex 16 with is +3. That means you should have 3 skill points/ level to spend on dex based skills like security. Same goes for wisdom, charisma, intelligence and so on. The number of point you spend on an attribute should determine how many skill points you should have on that skill. That way we could use attribute points more efficiently than being forced to put 16 on int to unlock dialogues,create items and so on.

 

Another thing is, cortosis weave on swords should be something rare and that should have to be earned by means of upgrade,so that lightsabers could cut thru swords in game. This is 4000 years before the trilogy,the jedi are nearly extinct and yet everyone in the game has "saber resistant" swords. Why not have weaker enemies without this benefit? Jedis are so superior in the field of battle, but i feel this has yet to be incorporated in the game by any means other than stats increased.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Skills already have an attribute modifier. Int represents how quickly you pick things up hence it gives you more skill points.

 

The jedi being nearly extinct is a new thing(at the time of KOTORII). Prior to the civil war there were 1000's it makes perfect sense that a counter would be developed to lightsabers. In EP IV+ the jedi are so rare that its just not used. Much like wearing bulky armour fell out of favour when firearms evolved and swords became much slimmer.

[vadrillan]

So you're not asking for much then, chibijulian?!

 

Intelligence is FINE as it is. It shows how easily you can pick up new skills, not how well you do those skills. If it worked as you suggest it would totally unbalance the game cause you'd put all your points in DEX and be the best at all dex skills, have the highest attack rating, best defense....and cause lightsaber damage wouldn't be affected by strength- the best damage.

 

I do agree about the strength affecting saber damage though- it's enough already!!!

[chibijulian]

So you're not asking for much then, chibijulian?!

 

Intelligence is FINE as it is. It shows how easily you can pick up new skills, not how well you do those skills. If it worked as you suggest it would totally unbalance the game cause you'd put all your points in DEX and be the best at all dex skills, have the highest attack rating, best defense....and cause lightsaber damage wouldn't be affected by strength- the best damage.

 

I do agree about the strength affecting saber damage though- it's enough already!!!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Thank you! Im glad someone does see this as well, it simply doesnt make any sense no matter how they try to put it, sabers have nothing to do with strenght. Obviously I cant really expect this to be changed in KotOR2, seeing as though something like that would be unprecedented in the whole game industry, but maybe they will get it right for the next game... Same for the whole single hilt/staff/2 sabers thing, combat effects (like sabers cutting thru swords,deflecting some force powers, shooting some sparks when ripping thru armor). What bothers me about that is that previous game had already addressed that nicely (e.g. Jedi Academy). it would be REALLY nice if they would improve those aspects of combat, as well as fix the whole BAB progression of guardians/sentinels/consulars.

[chibijulian]

*Bump*

[CrashT]

Hmm...

 

Now both KoTOR games adhere more to the Expanded Universe of Star Wars than they do to the films. Throughout the Star Wars books (Specifically those set between Return Of The Jedi and the New Jedi Order), there are characters who become Jedi essentially overnight and they are amongst some of the strongest Jedi of their generation. Corran Horn, and Mara Jade Skywalker amoungst them. Hell let's face it Luke Skywalker essentially became a Jedi overnight. Therefore it's not entirely unreasonable for character with latent force abilities like those in KoTOR2 to become Jedi with only marginal training. It would have been better if such characters had still been less capable than the likes of Keria and the Exile but the concept itself isn't so absurd.

 

 

Dual Lightsabers, or a Sabre-Staff never seemed overpowered to me, but then I did make sure that any chracters that wielded single Blades were maxed out in Dueling which seemed to make sense, as anybody who used a single blade would train to be expert in it.

 

 

In the Old Republic era there have been numerous ways involving Jedi (Revan\Malak, Exar Kun, Hyperspace War, Freedon Nadd etc), so it makes sense that Cortosis Weave would be common place because armies would pratically require it if they weren't to be entirely destoried on any battlefield of the time. The explaination given at the start of KoTOR about Shields also explains well why melee combat still exists. In the post-RoTJ timeline Cortosis Weave is rare probably because so much of it was used during the Old Republic era than none is left... lol

 

 

There'll never be and RPG where Lightsabers are as powerful as they technically should be, because such a game would be incredibly difficult to balance. In a game like Jedi Academy balance doesn't matter so much because enemies are there to be struck down, they are Lightsaber fodder and little more. In an RPG the enmies need to be balanced otherwise the entire concept of stats becomes meaningless. Why bother improving at all if enemies can be torn apart once you get a Lightsaber anyway? It would be nice to see Lightsabers cut through some swords maybe but not all (Maybe only Vibroswords have a Cortosis Weave?). The problem is Jedi as a concept are inherently too good to be true. Like superheroes is accurately portrayed Jedi characters would be almost unstoppable, which is fun for a film or an action game but for an RPG it just serves to weaken the storyline as enemies and situations lose their damge and hence their associated fear and any emotion impact they may have once had. They become Lightsaber fodder.

 

 

chibijulian, you took a purely combat approach to your character it seems, since you were a Guardian and then a Weapon Master. Now you must have been almost unstoppable in combat, because I am and I'm only a Jedi Sentinal\Jedi Watchman. I'm not sure how much more powerful you could get away with without making the KoTOR games little more than 3rd person action games.

 

I agree that realistically Lightsabers should be Dex based (Which is why all my Jedi characters had Lightsaber Finesse), but being Str based is not so much a limitation of the engine as it is a continuation of a tradition started in the Star Wars Pen and Paper Role Playing Games, especially the D20 system. A ruleset the KoTOR games use (Yeah it's basically AD&D).

 

 

Intelligence is your ability to learn. Therefore skills are based on it. Again the fault, if any, lies with the Star Wars D20 Ruleset which KoTOR (Appears to be) a representation of.

 

 

Something that irritated me though was the entire concept of a Jedi Sentinel, the who "middle of the road" class seems almost like a cop-out. I'd have liked to have seen three clases based on something like the Sense, Control and Alter mechanic of the original Star Wars PnP RPG. Where one would focus on the force to improve their physical abilities (Control), one focuses on understanding through the Force (Sense) , and one focus on direct action through the force (Alter).

[chibijulian]

Hmm...

 

Now both KoTOR games adhere more to the Expanded Universe of Star Wars than they do to the films. Throughout the Star Wars books (Specifically those set between Return Of The Jedi and the New Jedi Order), there are characters who become Jedi essentially overnight and they are amongst some of the strongest Jedi of their generation. Corran Horn, and Mara Jade Skywalker amoungst them. Hell let's face it Luke Skywalker essentially became a Jedi overnight. Therefore it's not entirely unreasonable for character with latent force abilities like those in KoTOR2 to become Jedi with only marginal training. It would have been better if such characters had still been less capable than the likes of Keria and the Exile but the concept itself isn't so absurd.

 

 

Dual Lightsabers, or a Sabre-Staff never seemed overpowered to me, but then I did make sure that any chracters that wielded single Blades were maxed out in Dueling which seemed to make sense, as anybody who used a single blade would train to be expert in it.

 

 

In the Old Republic era there have been numerous ways involving Jedi (Revan\Malak, Exar Kun, Hyperspace War, Freedon Nadd etc), so it makes sense that Cortosis Weave would be common place because armies would pratically require it if they weren't to be entirely destoried on any battlefield of the time. The explaination given at the start of KoTOR about Shields also explains well why melee combat still exists. In the post-RoTJ timeline Cortosis Weave is rare probably because so much of it was used during the Old Republic era than none is left... lol

 

 

There'll never be and RPG where Lightsabers are as powerful as they technically should be, because such a game would be incredibly difficult to balance. In a game like Jedi Academy balance doesn't matter so much because enemies are there to be struck down, they are Lightsaber fodder and little more. In an RPG the enmies need to be balanced otherwise the entire concept of stats becomes meaningless. Why bother improving at all if enemies can be torn apart once you get a Lightsaber anyway? It would be nice to see Lightsabers cut through some swords maybe but not all (Maybe only Vibroswords have a Cortosis Weave?). The problem is Jedi as a concept are inherently too good to be true. Like superheroes is accurately portrayed Jedi characters would be almost unstoppable, which is fun for a film or an action game but for an RPG it just serves to weaken the storyline as enemies and situations lose their damge and hence their associated fear and any emotion impact they may have once had. They become Lightsaber fodder.

 

 

chibijulian, you took a purely combat approach to your character it seems, since you were a Guardian and then a Weapon Master. Now you must have been almost unstoppable in combat, because I am and I'm only a Jedi Sentinal\Jedi Watchman. I'm not sure how much more powerful you could get away with without making the KoTOR games little more than 3rd person action games.

 

I agree that realistically Lightsabers should be Dex based (Which is why all my Jedi characters had Lightsaber Finesse), but being Str based is not so much a limitation of the engine as it is a continuation of a tradition started in the Star Wars Pen and Paper Role Playing Games, especially the D20 system. A ruleset the KoTOR games use (Yeah it's basically AD&D).

 

 

Intelligence is your ability to learn. Therefore skills are based on it. Again the fault, if any, lies with the Star Wars D20 Ruleset which KoTOR (Appears to be) a representation of.

 

 

Something that irritated me though was the entire concept of a Jedi Sentinel, the who "middle of the road" class seems almost like a cop-out. I'd have liked to have seen three clases based on something like the Sense, Control and Alter mechanic of the original Star Wars PnP RPG. Where one would focus on the force to improve their physical abilities (Control), one focuses on understanding through the Force (Sense) , and one focus on direct action through the force (Alter).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Thank you for shedding some light onto some of my issues with the gameplay! Well I still strongly believe that lightsaber combat should be DEX based. Nothing annoys me more than having light mastery granting me +3 STR instead of +3 DEX. It's totally innacurate. As for the cortosis weave thing, I just think it would be fun to cut through swords, hence I think that at least some of the enemies should have regular plain swords. Same goes for other effects I mentioned such as absorbing force powers, the sparks when it cuts thru armor, etc. I dont think that jedi as a concept are too good to be true, and i think that when you immerse urself in a fantasy/fiction game you want to believe that its not too good to be true,thats the whole point.

 

I'd also like to see as I said more balanced being achieved between staves,dual and single sabers..maxing out dueling helps,but still does not fix it entirely. A better solution would be,for example, raising the dueling bonuses so that comparatively you would do the same ammount of damage with maxed out dueling or 2 weapon fighting,and if jedi weapon master had superior dueling feats (like he does with 2 weapon fighting).

 

Unfortunately as it is now, whatever guide for the game that you read, anyone that you ask will always say,go for 2 weapon fighting, dueling doesnt cut it... Only consulars go for single sabers because they wouldnt have enough feats to go double or staff... And thats what ends up,to me, being conceptually wrong.THE jedi weapon master of the movies, Mace Windu, uses a single saber!

[Solan]

I think that it's obvious that single lightsabre will be worst in attack than lightstaff or the two lightsabers, but it is difficult to defend with them, so I think that instead of improving dueling feat by more damage and def there should be added the parrying feat, which I think will be more effective with single lightsabre because it is easier to defend youself by thinking of one than two blades.

[Azure79]

If lightsabers are weightless, then during the swing, no momentum is formed.

 

Upon contact with a surface/body part, the Jedi/Sith would have to use their wrist, hand and arm strength to actually push the blade through wouldn't they? With traditional metal weapons, of course you have to be strong to control the blade but that momentum you gain as you swing helps a lot too.

 

But yeah, Dex probably does play a more significant part in lightsaber combat since it is weightless.

[Msxyz]

I always wondered why non-jedi characters shouldn't be able to use a lightsaber. Isn't it a melee weapon after all?

 

It would be probably more difficult to handle a heavvy blaster than a lightsaber. And don't forget that both in the trilogy and in the EU there are plenty of examples of non-jedi using lightsaber as last ditch weapon or simply as an effcient cutter (Han Solo in the Empire Strikes Back for example)

 

Most security scanners installed in the spaceports or at cantinas entrances would even mistake a lightsaber for a welding device rather than a weapon. (again, EU) It may be an exotic weapon for people crazy enought to use them in a combat (like jedis) but for the rest of the galaxy is only a cheap laser cutter.

[213374U]

Real world reasoning applied to fantasy worlds always fails by default. No more changes to the ruleset, we have got an unbalanced enough game already.

[CrashT]

According to the fiction the Lightsaber is actually quite heavy but all the weight is in the hilt, so people untrained with it have a habit of chopping their own limbs off because they are not used to a melee weapon that has an effectively weightless blade. Thinking about it such a weapon would require both Strength and Dexterity, but it really depends on your style. Vader and Mace Windu clearly both rely on strength where as Obi Wan and Luke are show much more finesse.

 

Dual Wielding would require much greater strength as you'd have to hold one in each hand. If you think a single Lightsaber is difficult to defend with, just watch how Count Dooku does it in Episode II.

 

Jedi aren't "too good to be true" in most Star Wars fiction because they are usually holding themsleves back, because violence and aggression is not the Jedi way. When Jedi allow themsleves to be violent then they are almost unstoppable, I'm sure Episode III will show this quite well, as did The Clone Wars animated series. In a game like KoTOR you have almost free reign to be violent and aggressive and are not holding back so you do become a Jedi God pratically.

 

The only way to combat that in a accurate way would be to have made non-combat options more useful than combat options, because a true Jedi would try to get through all confrontations without even igniting their Lightsaber. Even Luke tries to give Jabba a last chance to surrender.

[AlanC9]

If lightsabers did cut through swords, nobody'd ever use a sword to fight a Jedi. You'd stick with your blaster.

[Montegue]

Two blades gives you no significant advantage over an opponent with one blade. Training, however, will. A staff weapon, on the other hand, has certian advantages over both, which is why it was so much more popular in tournament than the sword, and taught all the way up into the 19th century as a skill. Again, training is key. Given equally skilled opponents, it's a tossup. That being said, weilding a staff with two indredibly deadly blades that essentially have a circular edge would be absolute suicide, Force or not. Then again, as the above poster said, applying real world combat to fantasy is an excercise in sillyness.

[chibijulian]

Two blades gives you no significant advantage over an opponent with one blade. Training, however, will. A staff weapon, on the other hand, has certian advantages over both, which is why it was so much more popular in tournament than the sword, and taught all the way up into the 19th century as a skill. Again, training is key. Given equally skilled opponents, it's a tossup.  That being said, weilding a staff with two indredibly deadly blades that essentially have a circular edge would be absolute suicide, Force or not. Then again, as the above poster said, applying real world combat to fantasy is an excercise in sillyness.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I agree... But again Im not applying real world combat to fantasy, im just stating the obvious: lightsaber combat is almost entirely dex based. It doesnt make sense that strenght determines the ammount of damage or that a jedi guardian is granted +3 STR upon light side mastery. My topic has just two objectives: to see how many people agree with my oppinion and hopefully get the devs to see it too so KOTOR 3, a patch to kotor 2 or whatever will address this. It's totally ridiculous that people have been making jedis with heavy armor,0 dex bonus, 4 str bonus and wiping the floor with everyone else. It simply shouldnt work that way. A Jedi that isnt dexterous wouldnt be able to swing a lightsaber without chopping himself up.

 

The very same goes for saber staff/dual sabers/ single saber. In the movies, Darth Maul used a staff and got chewed by Obi Wan. Anakin used 2 sabers against Darth Tyranus and got creamed as well. Sure, one could argue that there was a difference in the potential of them, and I will agree,but the fact is, the movies portrays such instances of fighting as rare and not worth the investment, yet the game portrays the real,single saber combat as such! It's totally incoherent! Try this in the game: 2 players with equal stats,levels,etc, the one with the single saber and dueling will always lose to the guy with the 2 sabers or staff. I consider this an unbalance.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Actually if you lock sabers the strongest will win the lock.Watch the Luke/Vader fight in EP V to see how strength works with a lightsaber. Strength helps in pushing weapons out of the way , either other sabers or cortosis blades.

 

Armour presumably too has cortosis weave or it would be pretty pointless stuff. So with str you are pushing through the armour and with dex you are hiting a spot where there isnt any, or a weaker joint.

 

The biggest difference is that in the movies if the thing hits you your HURT and it's all the fancy stuff that leads to that point. Where as in a game you can hit people a lot and they wont instantly fall over.

 

Movie fights are played for Drama and thrills not really any sort of realism involved. Christopher Lee is however a VERY good swordsman and you can see that when his character fights just in how he carries himself.

[Chemix]

The large usage of cortosis isn't storyline related, it's a game excuse for lightsabers not being a 1 hit kill weapon. There is no way to make your character block or attack a certain way, only a predefined sequence, which is exactly the same as the melee sword attack sequence. A sword cuts through people with a medium amount of ease, it's not as if sword hits actualy just barely hurt you, if you don't block you are dead or near mortally wounded, or mabey you just loose a limb. Ofcourse also in real life as soon as the bow and arrow were invented the sword became obsolete and was rarely ever used again. The lightsaber is a sword consisting of a concentrated light beam the hilt that projects the beam, a lightsaber would be extremely clumbsy to use, but jedis have the force and that lets them predict their clumbsyness and avoid mishaps like loosing ones arm, apparently this doesn't help much for fighting enemies, as limbs get chopped off quite regularly so it seems. Your not going to get anything near realistic in an RPG or many other games. You can't controle a sword as you would in real life with a mouse and keyboard. JKA is probaly the closest to being near realistic, and it's still a long way off.

 

Dexerity is meant to aid defense in this off aim RPG, having it help everything would make all other atributes worthless, might as well just have dexterity alone be leveled up automaticly every time you level up.

 

I am a fan of KOTOR games for the story

 

No offense is intended & have a nice day

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Ofcourse also in real life as soon as the bow and arrow were invented the sword became obsolete and was rarely ever used again.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You might want to check your history. Bows predate swords by a considerable time. Even if you meant to put firearms rather than bows, armour and firearms still coexisted for several 100 years and swords were still in use in the first and even second (Japanese) world war.

[Chemix]

My point was that the sword never actualy played a huge part in battle, spears and projectile weapons were the main weapons of war, swords were always more of a secondary weapon. There are a few exceptions to this like Japan. Sorry for the inacuracy of bow and arrow invention

[Shevek]

Ofcourse also in real life as soon as the bow and arrow were invented the sword became obsolete and was rarely ever used again.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You might want to check your history. Bows predate swords by a considerable time. Even if you meant to put firearms rather than bows, armour and firearms still coexisted for several 100 years and swords were still in use in the first and even second (Japanese) world war.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Actually, in Japan, Samurai were basically horse archers. The whole "Japanese Love of the Sword" is just this classic thing all us men have done throughout the ages to make up for small wang size.