Is this the future of CRPG's?

[Child of Flame]

Bioware don't need to run after a trend or "what may be "in" in 2007" nonsense. If Bioware makes a game, people are gonna buy it anyway. And looking at Bio's last creations (NWN, Kotor), I'd say they are the one who care about progress in the CRPG genre, while other companies try to copy their games, or just make sequels to it. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Are you SERIOUS?!! What honestly has Bio 'pushed' in recent history? I think the game of theirs that 'pushed' the most, even though it wasn't in the RPG genre, was MDK2, with it's weapons creation system and story in a shooter.

 

Most of Bioware's RPGs from Baldur's Gate onwards have been rehashes of the same story with setting/NPC plot differences. Most of the tech in their games I'd seen used before in other games. NWNs tileset system wasn't the first moddable game using similar tech, you just like to think it is. I will give it to them that they made it easier to mod than most systems using similar tech before it, but please, don't say the 'push' the genre. I ain't no fanboi, but if I had to say anyone in recent years had 'pushed' the genre it would be Troika, but they screwed up pretty dang bad, as well as not putting the polish into their games they should've. Meh.

[Morgoth]

Thats half true. Upto this point Bioware has had some serious liscenced muscle backing them.

"D&D" or "Starwars" doesn't automatically mean "great game", as you can see with PORII, Demonstone or some crappy SW games. In the end it's not that different to a developer to use a license or not, the developer still must create outstanding content in all areas possible, and that is what really counts.

Jade Empire is going to be the first time that the only thing holding them up is their own name and nothing else.

Yup. But again, people refer a KOTOR or BG not to Star Wars and D&D respectively, but Bioware. So I don't really see a problem with JE either.

 

Dragon Age is almost going to be a competitor to NwN depending how things work out.

Nah, I don't think they just make a NWN with better graphics. Or a crappy Tileset-based Toolset. Bio's smart enough to do something different, but still let the fanboys "feel at home" when they play it.

A'la BG series, NWN, KOTOR. All three are different games, but still recognizable as Bio games.

 

Jades certainly not generating the same buzz as KOTOR or KOTOR II did at the moment (over here at least) and it's only another month in theory till it's released.

That will come in time.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Thats half true. Upto this point Bioware has had some serious liscenced muscle backing them.

"D&D" or "Starwars" doesn't automatically mean "great game", as you can see with PORII, Demonstone or some crappy SW games. In the end it's not that different to a developer to use a license or not, the developer still must create outstanding content in all areas possible, and that is what really counts.

Jade Empire is going to be the first time that the only thing holding them up is their own name and nothing else.

Yup. But again, people refer a KOTOR or BG not to Star Wars and D&D respectively, but Bioware. So I don't really see a problem with JE either.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

POR II still sold scads on the name despite being a piece of crap if was just a piece of crap with no D&D name, different story I think. Blizzard is really the only company that I can think of (outside of Japan) that made a huge success on their own material.

 

Thats because its the abreviated title. Pointless refering to them as AD&D and SW as no one would have a clue which one you meant..

 

Dont get me wrong I think JE looks fantastic but it dosnt have any big name backing it up and it's really not generating the wide term buzz that the named games did.

 

DA is even more of a risk in a way. I'm overjoyed they are dumping the diablo gameplay of NwN but stacked up against a D&D game, I wouldnt bet money on DA coming out on top.

[Volourn]

"Jades certainly not generating the same buzz as KOTOR or KOTOR II did at the moment (over here at least) "

 

Huh? It's always in the 'Most Wanted' and 'Most Anticpated' columns for 2005. Previews for it are a dime a dozen. It's everywhere. The onyl palce it hasn't been advertised is tv.

 

 

"Dragon Age is almost going to be a competitor to NwN depending how things work out."

 

A year a part? I think not. besdies, BIO makes money off of NWN2 anyways.

 

 

"I think the game of theirs that 'pushed' the most, even though it wasn't in the RPG genre, was MDK2, with it's weapons creation system and story in a shooter. "

 

You on crack. BG is what put RPGs back on the map; not FO. Though Diablo helped in its non RPG way.

 

 

"Most of Bioware's RPGs from Baldur's Gate onwards have been rehashes of the same story with setting/NPC plot differences. Most of the tech in their games I'd seen used before in other games."

 

Absolutely false. They have similaries; but only fools would actually think they're simply 'rehashes'.

 

 

"had to say anyone in recent years had 'pushed' the genre it would be Troika, but they screwed up pretty dang bad, as well as not putting the polish into their games they should've. Meh."

 

This is wher eyour opinion falls apart. the only thing Troika pushed was buggy games, and heck, Obsidian seems to have followed the trend. Hoepfully, Obsidian won't follow Troika's trend of blaming the publisher.

 

 

R00fles!

 

 

SP: Many D&D games bombed. Why do you think the Gbs eries stopped?

 

 

"I'm overjoyed they are dumping the diablo gameplay of NwN but stacked up against a D&D game,"

 

Hilarious considering the fact that NWN has the deepest gameplay of *any* of BIo's games.

 

 

R00fles!

[Morgoth]

Are you SERIOUS?!!  What honestly has Bio 'pushed' in recent history?  I think the game of theirs that 'pushed' the most, even though it wasn't in the RPG genre, was MDK2, with it's weapons creation system and story in a shooter.

Oh please don't be ridiculous.

 

Most of Bioware's RPGs from Baldur's Gate onwards have been rehashes of the same story with setting/NPC plot differences.  Most of the tech in their games I'd seen used before in other games.  NWNs tileset system wasn't the first moddable game using similar tech, you just like to think it is.  I will give it to them that they made it easier to mod than most systems using similar tech before it, but please, don't say the 'push' the genre.  I ain't no fanboi, but if I had to say anyone in recent years had 'pushed' the genre it would be Troika, but they screwed up pretty dang bad, as well as not putting the polish into their games they should've.  Meh.

Troika pushed the RPG genre? No. Aracanum, basically a Fallout, but less fun. ToEE -> Utter Crap. Bloodlines at least enjoyable, but some heavy problems, especially balance wise --> destroys gameplay experience.

 

Bioware made NWN and brought forth a huge Mod community that we only know from the FPS scene... there's a powerful toolset that every moron can use, there's a RT DM Mode and the game still has great support. And with HoTU Bio proved that they even can deliver a better SP experience than some other full price titles from well-known RPG companies. So there's for everybody something. And that for a game that just was meant as a multiplayer platform "heavy".

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Hialrious consiseirng the fatc that NWN has the deepest gameplay of *any* of BIo's games.

 

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Thats almost sig worthy

[Volourn]

Outisde of the (now fixed) spelling mistakes; I agree.

[Ellester]

@the guy with the everquest advertisement.

The sad thing is I really like that idea. Too bad it

[Child of Flame]

"I think the game of theirs that 'pushed' the most, even though it wasn't in the RPG genre, was MDK2, with it's weapons creation system and story in a shooter. "

 

You on crack. BG is what put RPGs back on the map; not FO. Though Diablo helped in its non RPG way.

 

 

Sorry, I had just gotten up and was sleepy. Baldur's Gate should be excluded since it was [basically] their first game, and the one that all the stories spawned off of.

 

"Most of Bioware's RPGs from Baldur's Gate onwards have been rehashes of the same story with setting/NPC plot differences. Most of the tech in their games I'd seen used before in other games."

 

Absolutely false. They have similaries; but only fools would actually think they're simply 'rehashes'.

 

 

I stand by this point, to me, they were all rehashes. If anything, I'd say this is the 'feel' that Morgoth is talking about. Crappy storytelling because they can't think of a new primary twist other than "YOUR LURVE INTEREST TURNS EVILE!!! ZOMG!!!"

 

 

"had to say anyone in recent years had 'pushed' the genre it would be Troika, but they screwed up pretty dang bad, as well as not putting the polish into their games they should've. Meh."

 

This is wher eyour opinion falls apart. the only thing Troika pushed was buggy games, and heck, Obsidian seems to have followed the trend. Hoepfully, Obsidian won't follow Troika's trend of blaming the publisher.

 

 

R00fles!

 

 

When I think of an RPG, I think storytelling and immersion. Bio didn't do this very much (Baldur's Gate aside, as it was the first of the 'new wave' of RPGs). I haven't played Arcanum or ToEE, so I can't speak for them, but for me, Bloodlines did this more than any game since Torment. Also, I know people are gonna flame me for this, but I liked the combat more than in Fallout. The SPECIAL system is awesome, but the way the interface is is cumbersome and hard to use.

 

 

"I'm overjoyed they are dumping the diablo gameplay of NwN but stacked up against a D&D game,"

 

Hilarious considering the fact that NWN has the deepest gameplay of *any* of BIo's games.

 

 

R00fles!

 

 

---> <_< --->

 

 

Are you SERIOUS?!!  What honestly has Bio 'pushed' in recent history?  I think the game of theirs that 'pushed' the most, even though it wasn't in the RPG genre, was MDK2, with it's weapons creation system and story in a shooter.

Oh please don't be ridiculous.

 

Most of Bioware's RPGs from Baldur's Gate onwards have been rehashes of the same story with setting/NPC plot differences.  Most of the tech in their games I'd seen used before in other games.  NWNs tileset system wasn't the first moddable game using similar tech, you just like to think it is.  I will give it to them that they made it easier to mod than most systems using similar tech before it, but please, don't say the 'push' the genre.  I ain't no fanboi, but if I had to say anyone in recent years had 'pushed' the genre it would be Troika, but they screwed up pretty dang bad, as well as not putting the polish into their games they should've.  Meh.

Troika pushed the RPG genre? No. Aracanum, basically a Fallout, but less fun. ToEE -> Utter Crap. Bloodlines at least enjoyable, but some heavy problems, especially balance wise --> destroys gameplay experience.

 

Bioware made NWN and brought forth a huge Mod community that we only know from the FPS scene... there's a powerful toolset that every moron can use, there's a RT DM Mode and the game still has great support. And with HoTU Bio proved that they even can deliver a better SP experience than some other full price titles from well-known RPG companies. So there's for everybody something. And that for a game that just was meant as a multiplayer platform "heavy".

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

As I told Volourn, when I think RPG, I think heavy story, and the combat should almost fade into the background. Bio hasn't written a good story in any of their RPGs that 'pushed' the genre since Baldur's Gate.

[Morgoth]

As I told Volourn, when I think RPG, I think heavy story, and the combat should almost fade into the background.  Bio hasn't written a good story in any of their RPGs that 'pushed' the genre since Baldur's Gate.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Having a good story, characters blabla is mandatory anyway, so how is that pushing the genre forward in your opinion? And letting the combat fade into the background only means that the combat is not done right, so how does that push the genre forward? When it only would come down to those criterions, Bio just could make BG3, BG4 etc. like BG1/BG2, or would have done KOTOR2 themselves, with no noticeable gameplay improvements, they would probably still make a lot of money, but at some point people would ask themselves "Hmm, it's time for something new". That's the reason why Bio's last few (and next) projects distinguished a lot gameplay wise, and why they let the sequels doing someone else (LOL). There you see you can't have improvements roleplaying wise when there're no imrovements gameplay wise. Developing a story isn't the big problem for designers, but how to craft story interactively, this is the actual hard part.

For example, F1/F2 or IWD1/IWD2 were in the end, apart from some rule changes, just the same games, but only distinguished story and content wise. That's for many people enough, but that doesn't heave a developer to the famous status like Bioware enjoys now. And I'm not talking about whether you think their games suck or not, that's something subjectively and does not influence Bio's enduring success.

[Child of Flame]

As I told Volourn, when I think RPG, I think heavy story, and the combat should almost fade into the background.  Bio hasn't written a good story in any of their RPGs that 'pushed' the genre since Baldur's Gate.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Having a good story, characters blabla is mandatory anyway, so how is that pushing the genre forward in your opinion? And letting the combat fade into the background only means that the combat is not done right, so how does that push the genre forward? When it only would come down to those criterions, Bio just could make BG3, BG4 etc. like BG1/BG2, or would have done KOTOR2 themselves, with no noticeable gameplay improvements, they would probably still make a lot of money, but at some point people would ask themselves "Hmm, it's time for something new". That's the reason why Bio's last few (and next) projects distinguished a lot gameplay wise, and why they let the sequels doing someone else (LOL). There you see you can't have improvements roleplaying wise when there're no imrovements gameplay wise. Developing a story isn't the big problem for designers, but how to craft story interactively, this is the actual hard part.

For example, F1/F2 or IWD1/IWD2 were in the end, apart from some rule changes, just the same games, but only distinguished story and content wise. That's for many people enough, but that doesn't heave a developer to the famous status like Bioware enjoys now. And I'm not talking about whether you think their games suck or not, that's something subjectively and does not influence Bio's enduring success.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Please point out major advancements between Bio's games that weren't done by someone else first, other than NWN of course, the toolset was it's only redeeming quality.

 

AFAIK, aside from graphics improvements and rules changes, most of their games were fairly similar.

 

What was special about Bloodlines was the level it immersed me. They took the faces from Fallout and fully realized the potential of them (i.e. you could see the emotions on the faces of the NPCs that YOU were causing), and the story was just overall done better than anything I'd come across in awhile. The NPC characters were believeable, and not forced, or stereotypes like in so many other games (Bio's included). It's a shame Troika is no more.

[Volourn]

"Crappy storytelling because they can't think of a new primary twist other than "YOUR LURVE INTEREST TURNS EVILE!!! ZOMG!!!"

 

Really? You better replay BIO games again. This isn't even close toa common theme. Only NWN OC, and KOTOR1 had this and they didn't even have to be your love interest. But, hey, nice try.

 

The various stories of the games are different though they do share similarities. That doens't make them carbon copies though.

 

Still trying to figure out how you can post that Troika pushed advances with their games yet BIO didn't. That's a R00fles and a half. And, no sorry, funny faces in BL and getting closest to the D&D rules set in TOEE is not pushing nothing.

 

The fact you think BL has better combat than FO kinda weakens your opinions in this thread. Offense intended.

[zer"0"]

Also, I know people are gonna flame me for this, but I liked the combat more than in Fallout.

 

Heretic!

 

 

 

[Oerwinde]

ToEE -> Utter Crap.

ToEE proved once and for all that Turn Based combat doesn't suck. And that when adapting a PnP rule system to the PC, implementing a turn based system as a turn based system is superior to converting it to real-time.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

ToEE proved once and for all that Turn Based combat doesn't suck. And that when adapting a PnP rule system to the PC, implementing a turn based system as a turn based system is superior to converting it to real-time.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

It might have proved it to you. But it's hardly a universal truth that is reflected by wide term sales.

[roshan]

TOEEs turn based combat was a disgrace, it was ridiculously easy. Also, it was incredibly repeptitive. For the first 3 levels of the temple you basically just fought orcs.

[Squidget]

AFAIK, aside from graphics improvements and rules changes, most of their games were fairly similar.

 

[in Bloodlines] they took the faces from Fallout and fully realized the potential of them (i.e. you could see the emotions on the faces of the NPCs that YOU were causing)

 

I love copy and pasting.

 

As for Bio's stories being repetitive, I have to agree with Volourn. There's some similarities, but it's not the same story rehashed.

 

If you seriously think the story of KOTOR is based around your 'love interest turning evil' I must honestly question whether you actually played the game as opposed to just reading about it. The game's real plot twist and interesting story is centered around the PC's position - Bastila's fall to the darkside is kept to a sideline late in the game, and isn't really built in such a way that it could suprise anyone. The NPCs are telling you "She might have fallen to the dark side" the whole time. For an NPC sidequest it was pretty good, and more than most party NPCs get in any RPG. were it the main quest I would have been disappointed, but it simply wasn't.

 

And of course, the BG series is all about your character's love interest being seduced to evil by Irenicus through being weak-willled, right? Oh wait, it was totally different.

 

I agree insofar that Bio isn't necessarily redefining the industry with each new game, but that's worlds different from rehashing the same story or not creating any innovation at all. Bloodlines didn't have anything particularly original about it either, but that didn't stop it from being a fun game.

[Oerwinde]

TOEEs turn based combat was a disgrace, it was ridiculously easy. Also, it was incredibly repeptitive. For the first 3 levels of the temple you basically just fought orcs.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Thats due to bad level design, not the combat system.

[roshan]

What Im saying is that TOEEs combat didnt prove that turn based combat could be fun because it wasnt fun. Im not overly concerned about the reasons why, although I admit that it was more due to the game and its level design rather than the combat system itself.

[Azarkon]

Arcanum, ToEE, and V:TM sank Troika. To claim that they were great games really doesn't hold water. The Fallouts and the IWDs, at the very least, kept IPLY and BIS going, and the BG's and NWN's obviously brought Bioware success. Troika's games ran them into the ground due to a variety of technical issues - and really, when it comes to games, the best ideas without solid execution are worth jack squat.

 

Personally, I was alot more immersed by IWD than ToEE, despite IWD's age. And I certainly preferred the IE's style of D&D combat to ToEE's, not because I hate TB (I love TB strategy games and roguelikes), but because ToEE's TB was placed within the context of a rush job dungeon-crawl. It could've been great, if ToEE itself was great, but combat mechanis alone does not a game make, and I doubt publishers elsewhere learned much from ToEE other than not to release a buggy, unfinished game. It certainly did not bring about the second age of TB CRPG's, if that's what some are implying.

 

Heck, even Troika realized that when they dropped TB for RT in VTM.

[Child of Flame]

AFAIK, aside from graphics improvements and rules changes, most of their games were fairly similar.

 

[in Bloodlines] they took the faces from Fallout and fully realized the potential of them (i.e. you could see the emotions on the faces of the NPCs that YOU were causing)

 

I love copy and pasting.

 

As for Bio's stories being repetitive, I have to agree with Volourn. There's some similarities, but it's not the same story rehashed.

 

If you seriously think the story of KOTOR is based around your 'love interest turning evil' I must honestly question whether you actually played the game as opposed to just reading about it. The game's real plot twist and interesting story is centered around the PC's position - Bastila's fall to the darkside is kept to a sideline late in the game, and isn't really built in such a way that it could suprise anyone. The NPCs are telling you "She might have fallen to the dark side" the whole time. For an NPC sidequest it was pretty good, and more than most party NPCs get in any RPG. were it the main quest I would have been disappointed, but it simply wasn't.

 

And of course, the BG series is all about your character's love interest being seduced to evil by Irenicus through being weak-willled, right? Oh wait, it was totally different.

 

I agree insofar that Bio isn't necessarily redefining the industry with each new game, but that's worlds different from rehashing the same story or not creating any innovation at all. Bloodlines didn't have anything particularly original about it either, but that didn't stop it from being a fun game.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Grr, I already said Baldur's Gate was exempt, those stories were fairly well done. I was talking more about Bio's recent games, but none of them really pushed anything. Not even design wise, except for the [overrated] toolset in NWN.

 

 

Arcanum, ToEE, and V:TM sank Troika.  To claim that they were great games really doesn't hold water.  The Fallouts and the IWDs, at the very least, kept IPLY and BIS going, and the BG's and NWN's obviously brought Bioware success.  Troika's games ran them into the ground due to a variety of technical issues - and really, when it comes to games, the best ideas without solid execution are worth jack squat.

 

Personally, I was alot more immersed by IWD than ToEE, despite IWD's age.  And I certainly preferred the IE's style of D&D combat to ToEE's, not because I hate TB (I love TB strategy games and roguelikes), but because ToEE's TB was placed within the context of a rush job dungeon-crawl.  It could've been great, if ToEE itself was great, but combat mechanis alone does not a game make, and I doubt publishers elsewhere learned much from ToEE other than not to release a buggy, unfinished game.  It certainly did not bring about the second age of TB CRPG's, if that's what some are implying.

 

Heck, even Troika realized that when they dropped TB for RT in VTM.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

I didn't play ToEE or Arcanum, but I found Bloodlines amazing.

 

And I really hope no one's going to try and argue that the interface for Fallout was done well. The SPECIAL system is good, but the cursor is a pain to use.

[zer"0"]

And I really hope no one's going to try and argue that the interface for Fallout was done well. The SPECIAL system is good, but the cursor is a pain to use.

 

I ain't gonna argue with you. There are few things that could be better and that is the inventory display and management. Most everything else has keyboard shortcuts.

I find it second nature by now --> I don't "see" the interface, I play my character.

Give it a few playthroughs and you will see the beauty of the system too.

 

As a whole I find Fallout unsurpassed in RP goodness, even today after seven years of playing it. And that in the end, is what matters most to me.

 

Still I know what you are saying ... the interface may be getting a bit outdated, yeah?

 

:edit: I hear alot of really good things about Arcanum. Says if you like Fallout, you may like Arcanum as well.

Hope I can find it one of these days.

[roshan]

Fallout had a very good interface. You could do almost all the main tasks using just your mouse. You can simply rightclick in order to change from selection, to movement to targeting. You pretty much never had to move your mouse down to the interface below, save for accessing the alternate screens such as inventory, character screen or options. I think the fallout interface was excellent. With a few tweaks, it would probably have been possible to make every action doable with just a few clicks of the mouse. For example, clicking on your own character while on on selection mode could have brought up the options for accessing the inventory and character screens.

 

Fallouts interface was certainly a lot better than the interface of the baldurs gate/icewind dale series, where you constantly had to press buttons at the bottom, left and right of the screen to do any task and had to waste a ****load of time moving the mouse from one button at one end to another. It was also a lot better than the interface of torment/icewind dale, which were a step above the standard ie interface. And it was incredibly better than the completely ridiculous toee interface which requires you to click and move your cursor to around five or more buttons just to cast one spell.

[Child of Flame]

And I really hope no one's going to try and argue that the interface for Fallout was done well. The SPECIAL system is good, but the cursor is a pain to use.

 

I ain't gonna argue with you. There are few things that could be better and that is the inventory display and management. Most everything else has keyboard shortcuts.

I find it second nature by now --> I don't "see" the interface, I play my character.

Give it a few playthroughs and you will see the beauty of the system too.

 

As a whole I find Fallout unsurpassed in RP goodness, even today after seven years of playing it. And that in the end, is what matters most to me.

 

Still I know what you are saying ... the interface may be getting a bit outdated, yeah?

 

:edit: I hear alot of really good things about Arcanum. Says if you like Fallout, you may like Arcanum as well.

Hope I can find it one of these days.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

IMO, it's better in Baldur's Gate, i.e. it wasn't such a pain switching between combat and movement.

 

 

Fallout had a very good interface. You could do almost all the main tasks using just your mouse. You can simply rightclick in order to change from selection, to movement to targeting. You pretty much never had to move your mouse down to the interface below, save for accessing the alternate screens such as inventory, character screen or options. I think the fallout interface was excellent. With a few tweaks, it would probably have been possible to make every action doable with just a few clicks of the mouse. For example, clicking on your own character while on on selection mode could have brought up the options for accessing the inventory and character screens.

 

Fallouts interface was certainly a lot better than the interface of the baldurs gate/icewind dale series, where you constantly had to press buttons at the bottom, left and right of the screen to do any task and had to waste a ****load of time moving the mouse from one button at one end to another. It was also a lot better than the interface of torment/icewind dale, which were a step above the standard ie interface. And it was incredibly better than the completely ridiculous toee interface which requires you to click and move your cursor to around five or more buttons just to cast one spell.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

That's what I HATE though. I don't mind using my keyboard, this all mouse crap with tons of clicks just to open and walk through a door is what's pissing me off.

 

 

On another note, I don't KNOW any of the hotkeys, because I have to Dual Jewel version, which has NO MANUAL! If someone could just list the controls out here, it would be appreciated. That or link me to a .pdf file, and depending on how bad I wanna play more of it, I'll download it on my 28kbp connection.

[Kelverin]

Explore your cd and you shall find it. You need Acrobat reader. Which is on the CD as well. Page A-10