Women in Kotor 2

[SteveThaiBinh]

The depiction of women (particularly Handmaiden) was raised in the General Discussion forum. I wanted to post this comment, but as it contains spoilers, I put it here instead.

 

The women of Kotor 2 are stereotyped. It's not deeply offensive (to me), just a bit disappointing.

 

The handmaiden's naked fighting is silly. Can you imagine a male character doing the same? Like, say, in the Mandalorians' battle circle? They weren't naked. And don't say it's because in the Mandalorians' culture they wear armour. It's the developers' decision to include clothed males and naked females that shows gender descrimination.

 

Visas was by far the more worrying case. A character is shown as a broken wreck, without any will or sense of self, and of course she's female. And utterly devoted to a male master (I assume Darth Nihilus is male, although correct me if I'm wrong). And then willing to surrender herself sexually to the male Exile, perhaps the female Exile too.

 

Kreia is a manipulative witch, lying and cheating from the shadows. And twice we see her defeated by Darth Sion in open combat. This suggests that males are dominant, women are subordinated, and can only exercise power through manipulation. Again, a clear gender stereotype. And frigid of course, as all powerful women are. I do love the way the voice actress says 'indignities', though.

 

This kind of thing is unavoidable when almost all game developers, and a clear majority of players, are male. Obsidian aren't being nasty or deliberately discriminatory, just careless. And the problem is very widespread (the Star Wars films are at least as bad, as is most of the output of Hollywood).

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Would you suggest Atris had "handmen" rather than women?

 

The whole naked fighting thing is something to do with the Echani. So unless your suggesting giving Atris handmen then the only way it will fit is with a woman.

 

You can read what you like into the game but perhaps you should ask if your the one with "issues" not the developers.

[LdyShayna]

Would you suggest Atris had "handmen" rather than women?

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Everything else aside, why SHOULDN'T she have male followers as well? She seemed to choose her followers based mostly on them being willing to blind themselves to the Force and follow her teachings exactly. IS there some reason they should be female as well? I don't remember anything about that in the dialogs, though I might hvae missed something as I haven't played a male PC yet.

[ISG1]

You shouldn't complain, I've had dozens of times when people in the game are much more aggressive against men then women. Are we supposed to tke those instances as jokes and the times that women are commented upon are discrimination. Yeah right.

[NeverwinterKnight]

The handmaiden's naked fighting is silly.  Can you imagine a male character doing the same?  Like, say, in the Mandalorians' battle circle?  They weren't naked.  And don't say it's because in the Mandalorians' culture they wear armour.  It's the developers' decision to include clothed males and naked females that shows gender descrimination.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

unless you got some weird, x-rated copy of the game that i didnt, handmaiden was never naked. ever. she wore underwear as did the MALE pc when he fought her. so why isnt that degrading as well to males?

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Would you suggest Atris had "handmen" rather than women?

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Everything else aside, why SHOULDN'T she have male followers as well? She seemed to choose her followers based mostly on them being willing to blind themselves to the Force and follow her teachings exactly. IS there some reason they should be female as well? I don't remember anything about that in the dialogs, though I might hvae missed something as I haven't played a male PC yet.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

They are all sisters. I'm not overly familiar with the EU stuff and the echani, perhaps someone else can fill it in.

 

I think they also added more coverage to the Female PC's this time around. Probably something to do with the ammount of time you spend without clothes on Peragus.

[Rosbjerg]

*major Spoiler*

 

well males aren't exactly the best either .. Atton is a murderer, who has killed countless people/jedi! Bao-Dur destroyed an entire planet also killing countless civilians and what have you! Nihilus, which is a male, destroyed an entire planet, sucking the life out of everyone .. and Sion is a psyhotic killing machine devoured with vengance .. and the Exile counts as all above, as male and DS ..

 

So all men are hereby projected as murderous scumbags?

[Eji]

Yeah, I do agree it's an unfortunate thing... although I'm a female gamer and am playing a female Exile, and I am glad the exile doesn't fall under the stereotype. (plus I don't have the Handmaiden so I don't have to worry about any naked fighting :D ) What's so great about choosing what the exile says is that you get to determine her strengths and weaknesses, so she is by no means a stereotypical woman, and I love that about the game.

 

To some degree, the male characters are also stereotyped and have their own weaknesses... although you'll never see them fight naked unless you force them to disrobe

Disciple (from at least what little I've noted of him so far) seems like the loyal servant type, as does Bao-dur, and from what I gather Atton loves you pretty deeply and would die for you, so perhaps he's not so unlike Visas, just handled differently. Though he hides it (mostly) well, he's also a wreck with no real sense of self.

 

Obviously the females still have more negative qualities in comparison, but just attempting to be a slight devil's advocate here. :">

[ISG1]

*major Spoiler*

 

well males aren't exactly the best either .. Atton is a murderer, who has killed countless people/jedi! Bao-Dur destroyed an entire planet also killing countless civilians and what have you! Nihilus, which is a male, destroyed an entire planet, sucking the life out of everyone .. and Sion is a psyhotic killing machine devoured with vengance .. and the Exile counts as all above, as male and DS ..

 

So all men are hereby projected as murderous scumbags?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I concur, once again women take advantage of their supposed inferior position in society and start bashing people.

[Ashe]

The handmaiden's naked fighting is silly.  Can you imagine a male character doing the same?  Like, say, in the Mandalorians' battle circle?  They weren't naked.  And don't say it's because in the Mandalorians' culture they wear armour.  It's the developers' decision to include clothed males and naked females that shows gender descrimination.

 

Umm. No. This may just be my interpretation, but something atton says to her implies that it's a little more than that. Pretty much he implies that he knows echani ettiquette, and implies that the lack of clothing is not part of it, thus that she is deliberatly stripping down, and stripping down the exile. Admittedly, it's odd, but it seems to be an attempt at seduction. Maybe you could see that as demeaning, but look at it from another way, this is a woman who has no need of a man to defend her, so isn't conforming to the stereotype of "i'm weak, come here you big strong man and protect me." I don't knowmuch about seduction, so I can't say too much more on this.

 

Visas was by far the more worrying case.  A character is shown as a broken wreck, without any will or sense of self, and of course she's female.  And utterly devoted to a male master (I assume Darth Nihilus is male, although correct me if I'm wrong).  And then willing to surrender herself sexually to the male Exile, perhaps the female Exile too.

 

I interpret that as less of a "broken woman" and more of a "broken person of whatever gender."

To me the emphasis is on the being subordinate to the will, not the gender issue. it's about the person, their spirit, mind and will, not what organs the person has.

 

Kreia is a manipulative witch, lying and cheating from the shadows.  And twice we see her defeated by Darth Sion in open combat.  This suggests that males are dominant, women are subordinated, and can only exercise power through manipulation.  Again, a clear gender stereotype.  And frigid of course, as all powerful women are.  I do love the way the voice actress says 'indignities', though.

 

This kind of thing is unavoidable when almost all game developers, and a clear majority of players, are male.  Obsidian aren't being nasty or deliberately discriminatory, just careless.  And the problem is very widespread (the Star Wars films are at least as bad, as is most of the output of Hollywood).

 

 

Kreia is

Darth Treya, Dark Lord of Betrayal.

Such tactics are stock in trade of that kind of person. Out and Out combat prowess isn't. Leave that to people like Sion or Maul. Most of what Kreia does, I could see done by a male equivalent with no differences. Which leaves it down to a 50/50 choice. Although you're also tapping into the crone/wise woman archetypes, which are by no means demeaning or derogratry to women (ask any pagan.)

 

I don't personally see that gender politics has any need to be brought in here. No hangups, except what you bring with you. Look at the characters in terms of powers and personalities, not as mere gender ciphers.

[LdyShayna]

Would you suggest Atris had "handmen" rather than women?

 

Would very much appreciate that, ShadowPaladin. I'm not very familiar with EU.

 

It just seemed a little odd, to me. However, from some of the things Atris says, I assume you can deduce that she felt attracted to the Exile. If the Exile is male, she may no longer think males are trustworthy. If female....well..she may just like being surrounded by females. Heh

 

Altogether, the only part that really made me roll my eyes was the dancing outfit. That, however, was completely optional as a quest, and mostly because my character's waist looked painfully too small. I mean, just plain unnatural. She looks much better in armor or Jedi robes, IMHO.

 

*ponders*

 

I reloaded and pretended it didn't happen. I can wait longer for her lightsaber.

[ISG1]

If there are any movies in which gender, or for that matter race or whatever, don't play a large part, it's Star Wars.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Would very much appreciate that, ShadowPaladin.  I'm not very familiar with EU.

 

It just seemed a little odd, to me.  However, from some of the things Atris says, I assume you can deduce that she felt attracted to the Exile.  If the Exile is male, she may no longer think males are trustworthy.  If female....well..she may just like being surrounded by females.  Heh

 

Altogether, the only part that really made me roll my eyes was the dancing outfit.  That, however, was completely optional as a quest, and mostly because my character's waist looked painfully too small.  I mean, just plain unnatural.  She looks much better in armor or Jedi robes, IMHO.

 

*ponders*

 

I reloaded and pretended it didn't happen.  I can wait longer for her lightsaber. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

When you ask the handmaiden to dance for Vogga she wonders what all the fuss is about. Same when you ask her to get dressed after combat. If you forget to get dressed yourself she has a few choice lines too.

 

I used it for a while (playing female DS) because it makes up for a shortfall in pursuasion.

 

Mira also has a few things to say if you ask her about men (only as a female PC).

 

I just couldnt imagine Kreias part as a creepy old man... Really dont see how that would work at all.

[Thummin]

My feelings on this are mixed. By nature, I like new twists on old ideas rather than the standard clich

[Aurora]

Prediction: "what the HELL, you want every female character to be a big ugly flannel-wearing dyke?"

 

Prediction: "So what you're lucky there were even female characters who were remotely competent in the game in real life women are basically useless."

 

Prediction: "Handmaiden is EMPOWERED because she chooses to fight naked, stop being so REPRESSED, you CHRISTIAN."

 

Prediction: "Do we have to make EVERYTHING SO PC NOW?"

 

I do agree that this stuff was mostly careless and not actively skeezy, though I really could've done without Mira's Annahesque excuse for her +5 AC, 5 DR/physical handkerchief. Didn't mind Kreia so much - manipulation is a cringeworthy female stereotype, yes, but as mentioned elsewhere she's echoing the Emperor. It's the fact that she's repeatedly attacked for being a "manipulative witch" that's a tad obnoxious.

 

And... y'know, even though it wasn't supposed to be *that* kind of love, "I killed her because I loved her" is one of the top two most disturbing lines uttered by a romanceable guy in a game. Good Lord. But hey, Mira's idea of romance is vaguely psychotic too, so I guess it's, uh, fair.

 

You shouldn't complain, I've had dozens of times when people in the game are much more aggressive against men then women. Are we supposed to tke those instances as jokes and the times that women are commented upon are discrimination. Yeah right.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Uh, yeah, I guess that's why we have an extended cutscene of Kreia getting beaten to a bloody pulp, and Mira getting strangled multiple times by Hanharr, and Visas being force choked by her master...

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

You can force choke the disciple..

[SteveThaiBinh]

The Exile and Handmaiden aren't naked when they fight, as this would have increased the rating of the game unnecessarily. They're in their underwear, though the dialogue refers to their not wearing clothes. But that's not the point. Before you played the game, if someone had said "There's a character who will only fight you in their underwear, do you think it's a man or a women?", would it have been hard to guess? This is a gender stereotype that is being reinforced in the game.

 

And then there's the dancing costume (yes, I'd forgotten about that, thanks). And the Twilek dancer on Telos that you can 'enslave', and so on. This is the nature of much gender discrimination in the modern world. Any individual case can be dismissed, but taken together, then the pattern is disturbing.

[Aurora]

And then we come to Kreia. Sure, she

[Aurora]

You can force choke the disciple..

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Certainly, and do violent things to other male characters as well. The female characters just don't seem "excluded" from violence as was argued, although I suspect that was more of a general rant on sitcom violence or something similarly absurd.

 

The whole dancer's outfit thing is awesome. A race of sluglike hermaphrodites are mega-turned on by skinny, scantily-clad human females. Uh. Okay.

[ISG1]

With aggressive I don't just mean physical aggression, I also mean the manipulative nature of the women. THe comments about how men view the lightsaber as very important, while jedi women do not have this. And don't forget that in both Kreia's and Mira's situation the aggression form the men has a source which is not at all stereotype. Kreia used to be the MAster of Nihilus and Sion. MIra saved Hanharr once, etc.

[Wild Storm]

And then there's the dancing costume (yes, I'd forgotten about that, thanks).  And the Twilek dancer on Telos that you can 'enslave', and so on.  This is the nature of much gender discrimination in the modern world.  Any individual case can be dismissed, but taken together, then the pattern is disturbing.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Thats the Star Wars Universe. Female Twi'Leks always have been, and always will be slaves to gruesome gangsters. And remember, Return of the Jedi, it was a female who rescued herself, while being a slave. No more complaining.

[Volourn]

"It's the fact that she's repeatedly attacked for being a "manipulative witch" that's a tad obnoxious."

 

How's that obnoxious? It's the truth. That's exactly what she is.

[Aurora]

So Kreia doesn't make a **** joke to female characters, and Mira saves Hanharr's life, and Leia after being forced into sexual slavery manages to kill a giant sedentary slug, and therefore YAY SEXISM EVERYWHERE IS SOLVED.

 

Lunchtime before I tear all my hair out.

[ISG1]

And then there's the dancing costume (yes, I'd forgotten about that, thanks).  And the Twilek dancer on Telos that you can 'enslave', and so on.  This is the nature of much gender discrimination in the modern world.  Any individual case can be dismissed, but taken together, then the pattern is disturbing.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Thats the Star Wars Universe. Female Twi'Leks always have been, and always will be slaves to gruesome gangsters. And remember, Return of the Jedi, it was a female who rescued herself, while being a slave. No more complaining.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Exactly, all the important female characters in the Star Wars movies(i.e. Leia, Padme) are strong and independant women.

[Aurora]

How's that obnoxious? It's the truth. That's exactly what she is.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

The language used and the responses are very gender-specific. I cannot imagine people calling Palpatine such names - though that's in part 'cause he's a much less interesting character than Kreia.