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What we can do about the state of TSL


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As we know, a lot of content, especially at the end of the game, was removed from KOTOR2, and replaced with a much worse and more vague ending. If you haven't seen it yet, see this thread: http://forums.obsidianent.com/index.php?showtopic=29764 . Even Gamespy has mentioned it; see http://www.gamespy.com/articles/588/588057p1.html?fromint=1 .

 

Also, the game is quite buggy at the moment, much more than the first KOTOR was at release. The problems with ATI cards (try getting through Dantooine) are, IMHO, inexcusable.

 

While I believe there will be a patch or two, eventually, in order to fix the worst bugs, the removed content should certainly be re-added to the game. Not only because it's frustrating to go through an engrossing game with fascinating characters to get an "ok, let's put all the toys back in the box" rushed ending, but because it represents the worst about the current state of the industry - a game which could be marvelous, but which isn't, because the suits in charge ordered the game released in time for Christmas, no matter how unfinished it was. This isn't Obsidian's fault, IMHO, but Lucasarts'. Bioware could delay KOTOR until it was ready, but this is Obsidian's first game, so they probably had no voice in the matter.

 

So, I believe it's time to do something. But what? I have a couple of suggestions - they may help, or not, but they surely can't make things worse. This is not simply about TSL (although each of us would do anything to have the game as it was meant to be), but about not putting up with rushed Christmas releases any more.

 

Suggestions:

 

1- sign the online petition at http://www.petitiononline.com/kotor2/ . It will probably make little to no difference, but it's easy and quick, and maybe they'll listen if they see a huge number of signatures.

 

2- email Lucasarts themselves, asking for a finished game. Be calm and polite, not rude, but say that the game *really* needs to be finished, that it will be a stain on Lucasarts' reputation in the future if it's not. Say how it may affect your purchases of LA products in the future. Say that Obsidian has created a work of art which will be remember as one of LA's best products ever (and affect future sales), if only it is finished.

 

3- snail mailing LA would probably be even better, as it's very easy to filter a huge number of email messages before they reach anyone who matters. You can find contacts for Lucasarts here: http://www.lucasarts.com/contact/

 

4- any more suggestions?

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As we know, a lot of content, especially at the end of the game, was removed from KOTOR2, and replaced with a much worse and more vague ending. If you haven't seen it yet, see this thread: http://forums.obsidianent.com/index.php?showtopic=29764 . Even Gamespy has mentioned it; see http://www.gamespy.com/articles/588/588057p1.html?fromint=1 .

 

Also, the game is quite buggy at the moment, much more than the first KOTOR was at release. The problems with ATI cards (try getting through Dantooine) are, IMHO, inexcusable.

 

While I believe there will be a patch or two, eventually, in order to fix the worst bugs, the removed content should certainly be re-added to the game. Not only because it's frustrating to go through an engrossing game with fascinating characters to get an "ok, let's put all the toys back in the box" rushed ending, but because it represents the worst about the current state of the industry - a game which could be marvelous, but which isn't, because the suits in charge ordered the game released in time for Christmas, no matter how unfinished it was. This isn't Obsidian's fault, IMHO, but Lucasarts'. Bioware could delay KOTOR until it was ready, but this is Obsidian's first game, so they probably had no voice in the matter.

 

So, I believe it's time to do something. But what? I have a couple of suggestions - they may help, or not, but they surely can't make things worse. This is not simply about TSL (although each of us would do anything to have the game as it was meant to be), but about not putting up with rushed Christmas releases any more.

 

Suggestions:

 

1- sign the online petition at http://www.petitiononline.com/kotor2/ . It will probably make little to no difference, but it's easy and quick, and maybe they'll listen if they see a huge number of signatures.

 

2- email Lucasarts themselves, asking for a finished game. Be calm and polite, not rude, but say that the game *really* needs to be finished, that it will be a stain on Lucasarts' reputation in the future if it's not. Say how it may affect your purchases of LA products in the future. Say that Obsidian has created a work of art which will be remember as one of LA's best products ever (and affect future sales), if only it is finished.

 

3- snail mailing LA would probably be even better, as it's very easy to filter a huge number of email messages before they reach anyone who matters. You can find contacts for Lucasarts here: http://www.lucasarts.com/contact/

 

4- any more suggestions?

 

Actually the proposed ending was much worse it had nothing to do with Star Wars and was just a tablue of gratuatous torture and suffering. Dosnt belong in a SW game and if LA pulled it they have my thanks. :lol:

 

I was hugely miffed about the lack of an ending but having read the scripts I consider it a lucky escape and i'm considerably less miffed.

I have to agree with Volourn.  Bioware is pretty much dead now.  Deals like this kills development studios.

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The whole over the top gloomyness isnt the only reason I loathe the ending.

 

Look at it this way. You have been training your friends turning them into an elite fighting force (the Handmaiden could quite easily kill my character) and then the writers decide well none of that matters because the story has to go this way. It's cheap and it's cheesy and if people want to do that sort of thing, well write books dont design games.

 

Any one of my companions could have killed Sion one on without too much effort according to the rules as they are set. So unless there is something particularly special that makes you the only one in the whole galaxy that can do it the ending is non sensical.

I have to agree with Volourn.  Bioware is pretty much dead now.  Deals like this kills development studios.

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Look at it this way. You have been training your friends turning them into an elite fighting force (the Handmaiden could quite easily kill my character) and then the writers decide well none of that matters because the story has to go this way. It's cheap and it's cheesy and if people want to do that sort of thing, well write books dont design games.

 

Any one of my companions could have killed Sion one on without too much effort according to the rules as they are set. So unless there is something particularly special that makes you the only one in the whole galaxy that can do it the ending is non sensical.

Uh, the same logic can be applied to most RPGs. By the end of the game, the NPCs are about the same level as the PC (which is usually too much), but the story isn't about them. The same happens in most books that have the main character fighting the main baddy and killing him/her. Usually the main char just 'gets lucky' or something, but there's nothing special about them.

 

And there was enough torture and suffering in the OT. It's just it wasn't explicitly displayed, but it was there still.

- When he is best, he is a little worse than a man, and when he is worst, he is little better than a beast.

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Uh, the same logic can be applied to most RPGs. By the end of the game, the NPCs are about the same level as the PC (which is usually too much), but the story isn't about them. The same happens in most books that have the main character fighting the main baddy and killing him/her. Usually the main char just 'gets lucky' or something, but there's nothing special about them.

 

And there was enough torture and suffering in the OT. It's just it wasn't explicitly displayed, but it was there still.

 

It's like you reaching the end and being killed without a fight. It totally cheapens everything you have done upto that point.

 

If Sion was worthy then I might buy it but Atton could smash him to the floor so many times , or even just camo up and smack him around plenty of damage to take him down.

 

Dramatic endings are all fine and dandy but that ones just laughably unrealistic if you play it by the rules of the game. Books are different the only rules a book follows is the authours whim.

 

I've never played DS in KOTOR but when you turn on your companions do they just die or do they fight back?

 

Being explicitly displayed is what makes it not Star Wars. You see the droid go into the cell but you dont see what it does to Leia. You see han solo and the arcing machine but then it cuts away.

 

At no point do you see people imobilized and purposefully mutilated thats not Star Wars thats texes chainsaw massacre..

I have to agree with Volourn.  Bioware is pretty much dead now.  Deals like this kills development studios.

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It's like you reaching the end and being killed without a fight. It totally cheapens everything you have done upto that point.

Huh? Care to explain exactly how did you arrive to this conclusion? :huh:

 

 

If Sion was worthy then I might buy it but Atton could smash him to the floor so many times , or even just camo up and smack him around plenty of damage to take him down.

 

Dramatic endings are all fine and dandy but that ones just laughably unrealistic if you play it by the rules of the game. Books are different the only rules a book follows is the authours whim.

Well, saying that the story should suffer because the power balance throughout the game is poor is a weak argument at best. I know it sucks to have a Sith Lord that goes down in two saber swipes, but that's not an excuse to have a badly resolved plot.

 

 

I've never played DS in KOTOR but when you turn on your companions do they just die or do they fight back?

Some fight back, some just die, some run.

 

 

Being explicitly displayed is what makes it not Star Wars. You see the droid go into the cell but you dont see what it does to Leia. You see han solo and the arcing machine but then it cuts away.

 

At no point do you see people imobilized and purposefully mutilated thats not Star Wars thats texes chainsaw massacre..

Um, I saw Luke's hand severed, just as I saw Anakin's and that poor sod's in the Mos Eisley cantina. I saw Dooku and Palps use Force lightning against defenseless oponents. I saw Han Solo shoot first ( :o ). From what I've read, the scripted ending didn't have anything worse than that.

- When he is best, he is a little worse than a man, and when he is worst, he is little better than a beast.

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I think IF they were to re-intergrate the ending into the game by means of a patch/ or expansion disk that it would be a good thing. I guess the main thing is that as long as its not grouped with a critical patch everyone will be happy because then no one is being forced to DL something they don't want.

 

Also to those who are saying "At no point do you see people imobilized and purposefully mutilated thats not Star Wars thats texes chainsaw massacre.. " what about the bar fight on Tatooine where buddy gets his arm sliced off by Obi-won (sp?) or where Guedo (sp?) got shot under the table by han solo. Or on the ewok planet where Leia, han, and Luke had that whole scene where luke and leia know they are brother an sister and Han feels jelous(sp?). Or where luke gets his hand cut off by vader, or vader getting his ass kicked by palpatine via force lightning then vaders death scene. All of these scenes either you see people imobilized and purposefully mutilated or love/death scenes. So really the ending the way that OE wanted it would have very much worked with the whole starwars feel of the game and if nothing else it would have further cemented it into the starwars world than the current ending.

 

edit: NumberMan you beat me too it :huh:

"The only difference between genius and stupidity is genius has its limits!" - Albert Einstein.

 

"It's better to be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt!"

 

"You can try to kill me, you'd fail!, but you can try!" - Revan.

 

"When you have exhausted all other possibilities whatever remains, however improbable must be the truth." - Sherlock Holmes (a.k.a. Sir Arthur Conan Dole)

 

"A lack of planning on your part, does not constitute an emergency on my part"

 

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I think IF they were to re-intergrate the ending into the game by means of a patch/ or expansion disk that it would be a good thing. I guess the main thing is that as long as its not grouped with a critical patch everyone will be happy because then no one is being forced to DL something they don't want.

 

Also to those who are saying "At no point do you see people imobilized and purposefully mutilated thats not Star Wars thats texes chainsaw massacre.. " what about the bar fight on Tatooine where buddy gets his arm sliced off by Obi-won (sp?) or where Guedo (sp?) got shot under the table by han solo. Or on the ewok planet where Leia, han, and Luke had that whole scene where luke and leia know they are brother an sister and Han feels jelous(sp?). Or where luke gets his hand cut off by vader, or vader getting his ass kicked by palpatine via force lightning then vaders death scene. All of these scenes either you see people imobilized and purposefully mutilated or love/death scenes.  So really the ending the way that OE wanted it would have very much worked with the whole starwars feel of the game and if nothing else it would have further cemented it into the starwars world than the current ending.

 

edit: NumberMan you beat me too it  :huh:

 

The only way they would do that with saving face so to speak, would be a that they released a "Director's Cut" ending as a seperate patch, stating that it would be something special for the fan community.

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I suggest you read the ratings guidelines.

 

Ever wondered why they used droids in EP I ? Because you can hack them appart and no one worries much.

 

Seriously you show me a film where someone has their arm hacked off as an act of torture (or any other bit of them) that isnt 18 rated or unrated.

 

The hand thing in SW is over in flash, blink and you miss it. It's not focused on the removal of said limb.

I have to agree with Volourn.  Bioware is pretty much dead now.  Deals like this kills development studios.

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The hand thing in SW is over in flash, blink and you miss it. It's not focused on the removal of said limb.

Well, I'd say it's pretty focused on the removal of the limb, since the camera displays the hand lying in a pool of blood, if only to show the power of the lightsaber. And in KotOR 1 you have our lovely Malak having some fun with Bastila in the torture table. Sure, no blood, no hacking limbs, but electroshocking is as fine a torture method as any.

- When he is best, he is a little worse than a man, and when he is worst, he is little better than a beast.

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Well, I'd say it's pretty focused on the removal of the limb, since the camera displays the hand lying in a pool of blood, if only to show the power of the lightsaber. And in KotOR 1 you have our lovely Malak having some fun with Bastila in the torture table. Sure, no blood, no hacking limbs, but electroshocking is as fine a torture method as any.

 

It's a non human though different rules apply plus it was over 20 years ago and the rules have changed a lot since then. Of course that was before Lucas figured out that a beam of light would actually cauterise the wound.

 

Try that with a human and you would instantly push the rating to a 15, possibly higher.

I have to agree with Volourn.  Bioware is pretty much dead now.  Deals like this kills development studios.

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It's a non human though different rules apply plus it was over 20 years ago and the rules have changed a lot since then. Of course that was before Lucas figured out that a beam of light would actually cauterise the wound.

 

Try that with a human and you would instantly push the rating to a 15, possibly higher.

Ok so what exactly is your arguement? I mean we are talking about trying to get this put back into the GAME (thus no real people will be hurt) the game is already rated teen thus blood is allowed (even listed on the game box) and it all would fit into the whole starwars world. Also to say the rules have changed doesn't make any sense what so ever because if nothing else the general public has become more or less desensitised to violence since the OT came out some 20 + years ago. Also they wouldn't have to show atton with a bloody stump (I know there would be no blood from a lightsaber cut) you could easily hide it from veiw with shadows and or the PC, all that would be seen would be the intial cut of the blade (more or less the same as we see in the movies).

"The only difference between genius and stupidity is genius has its limits!" - Albert Einstein.

 

"It's better to be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt!"

 

"You can try to kill me, you'd fail!, but you can try!" - Revan.

 

"When you have exhausted all other possibilities whatever remains, however improbable must be the truth." - Sherlock Holmes (a.k.a. Sir Arthur Conan Dole)

 

"A lack of planning on your part, does not constitute an emergency on my part"

 

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To get back to the original thread of what can be done I have a *radical* solution. E3 is scheduled for Los Angeles May 17-20. LucasArts and Bioware will be there but I didn't see anything for Obsidian. Of course, only industry workers are allowed to attend. Believe me, if a hundred or so ticked off gameplayers showed up and picketed, it would have a marvelous effect. Anyone from the LA area willing to take this on?

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Ok so what exactly is your arguement? I mean we are talking about trying to get this put back into the GAME (thus no real people will be hurt) the game is already rated teen thus blood is allowed (even listed on the game box) and it all would fit into the whole starwars world. Also to say the rules have changed doesn't make any sense what so ever because if nothing else the general public has become more or less desensitised to violence since the OT came out some 20 + years ago. Also they wouldn't have to show atton with a bloody stump (I know there would be no blood from a lightsaber cut) you could easily hide it from veiw with shadows and or the PC, all that would be seen would be the intial cut of the blade (more or less the same as we see in the movies).

 

My argument is twofold.

 

One that sort of gratuatity dosnt belong in the game. Yes you have people being zapped but there are no lasting effects of that even in the movies. Ok Darth dies, but then he's merrily chatting to his ghost pals it's not at all downbeat.

 

Two that having such predermination cheapens everything you did in the game. Any point making Atton an Uber Jedi if it's not going to make any difference to how the battle goes?

 

Soin is not worthy of that sort of sacrifice he's a pushover, so is Kreia.

 

If they decimated my party and then I smashed them as easily as I did I'd be totally incredulous. Which would ruin the game much more than the lack of a complete ending.

I have to agree with Volourn.  Bioware is pretty much dead now.  Deals like this kills development studios.

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Two that having such predermination cheapens everything you did in the game. Any point making Atton an Uber Jedi if it's not going to make any difference to how the battle goes?

 

Soin is not worthy of that sort of sacrifice he's a pushover, so is Kreia.

 

If they decimated my party and then I smashed them as easily as I did I'd be totally incredulous. Which would ruin the game much more than the lack of a complete ending.

Um, you have a point. However it's not the story or the scripted ending that's wrong. It's that Sion & Co. are so ridiculously easy. If instead of rampant leveling and enemy scaling there had been a more 'by the book' approach to the original ruleset, we wouldn't be having this discussion, because the Sith Lords would have been fearsome, worthy foes. Or at least we would have had something like Malak. :wub:"

- When he is best, he is a little worse than a man, and when he is worst, he is little better than a beast.

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Or at least we would have had something like Malak.  :wub:"

 

Malak wasnt any harder he just had more of a cheese topping.

 

If Malak wasnt invulnerable during his little sprints to the Jedi tanks one good saber throw or guardian Jump would have finished him.

 

I agree entirely though the rules are not at all suited for such high levels. It's very silly having force wave by the time you arrive on the first proper planet and the top level of lightning a half an hour later.

 

One thing that mystifies me is why they felt the need to add yet another 3 upgrade slots to the sabers. It's not like they could not be lethal enough anyway.

I have to agree with Volourn.  Bioware is pretty much dead now.  Deals like this kills development studios.

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My argument is twofold.

 

One that sort of gratuatity dosnt belong in the game. Yes you have people being zapped but there are no lasting effects of that even in the movies. Ok Darth dies, but then he's merrily chatting to his ghost pals it's not at all downbeat.

 

Two that having such predermination cheapens everything you did in the game. Any point making Atton an Uber Jedi if it's not going to make any difference to how the battle goes?

 

Soin is not worthy of that sort of sacrifice he's a pushover, so is Kreia.

 

If they decimated my party and then I smashed them as easily as I did I'd be totally incredulous. Which would ruin the game much more than the lack of a complete ending.

 

 

How could Atton beat Sion exactly? Storywise I mean?

 

He's been training for what? A few weeks... Sion's a friggin Sith Lord. Doesn't work that way unless you have what I like to call "The Skywalker Suffix" (ok, it's a surname but you know what I mean heh)... or if you're an amnesiac Dark Lord- that lets you get pretty awesome pretty fast too.

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How could Atton beat Sion exactly?  Storywise I mean?

 

He's been training for what? A few weeks... Sion's a friggin Sith Lord.  Doesn't work that way unless you have what I like to call "The Skywalker Suffix" (ok, it's a surname but you know what I mean heh)... or if you're an amnesiac Dark Lord- that lets you get pretty awesome pretty fast too.

 

Atton is the same sort of level as you Atton has a tricked out lightsaber and Mandalorian battle armour and AC in the 50's.

 

Sion will drop in two rounds. Even if Atton has to fight him for an hour and he keeps getting up.

 

So whats so different about your character then ? If you suck Sion will kill you. If you dont you will kill him. If you are fully tricked out with master speed and flurry you will kill him in the time it takes to blink.

I have to agree with Volourn.  Bioware is pretty much dead now.  Deals like this kills development studios.

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How could Atton beat Sion exactly?  Storywise I mean?

 

He's been training for what? A few weeks... Sion's a friggin Sith Lord.  Doesn't work that way unless you have what I like to call "The Skywalker Suffix" (ok, it's a surname but you know what I mean heh)... or if you're an amnesiac Dark Lord- that lets you get pretty awesome pretty fast too.

 

Atton is the same sort of level as you Atton has a tricked out lightsaber and Mandalorian battle armour and AC in the 50's.

 

Sion will drop in two rounds. Even if Atton has to fight him for an hour and he keeps getting up.

 

 

he said storywise, not gameplay wise. you gave an explanation gameplay wise.

 

if you just ignore "levels" and "stats" for a minute and just focus on the story, sion would wipe the floor with atton. think about it, sion has been a sith lord for, how long, atleast 5 years, and a darksider for more. atton was nothing but a crappy pilot a couple of days ago. i doubt he mastered the force in a weeks time and able to compete with a sith lord.

 

so storyline wise, atton wouldnt have a shot against sion.

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My argument is twofold.

 

One that sort of gratuatity dosnt belong in the game. Yes you have people being zapped but there are no lasting effects of that even in the movies. Ok Darth dies, but then he's merrily chatting to his ghost pals it's not at all downbeat.

 

Two that having such predermination cheapens everything you did in the game. Any point making Atton an Uber Jedi if it's not going to make any difference to how the battle goes?

 

Soin is not worthy of that sort of sacrifice he's a pushover, so is Kreia.

 

If they decimated my party and then I smashed them as easily as I did I'd be totally incredulous. Which would ruin the game much more than the lack of a complete ending.

I must agree that you do have a point, well atleast to a certain point anyway. This type of violence maybe shouldn't be in the game but the thing is that the game is rated Teen thus meaning that no one under 13 should be allowed to play it let alone own it (though we all know they do) and by the time a person these days reaches 13 years of age they have seen worse violence on the evening news or in the friday night movie, than they will in most games out on the market.

 

But this is my point I guess (should I have to make one at this point in time) I would rather have this type of ending (as laid out in the links in the original posters comments) than the ending we were giving at the end of TSL, Atleast with this type of ending we have closure sure it might not be perfect but atleast it fits with some of the story rather than what we were given which didn't fit at all, it tended to leave way to much up to the player to figure out what happened (I will admit leaving some to the imagination of the player is key to the success of RPGs but to just drop the ending into almost a certain nothingness is just wrong). If they could find a happy medium then I thing most would be happy, I mean all I am really looking for is some idea of weather or not my party members even survived till Malachor V and if they survived after.

I know they did from talking to kreia, but I would like to understand as to why they didn't come on the planet with me and maybe even some videos of them after the exile leaves known space while kreia is telling you the future a the end there (hell there was spots put in that looked like there should have been videos in that speach)

.

"The only difference between genius and stupidity is genius has its limits!" - Albert Einstein.

 

"It's better to be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt!"

 

"You can try to kill me, you'd fail!, but you can try!" - Revan.

 

"When you have exhausted all other possibilities whatever remains, however improbable must be the truth." - Sherlock Holmes (a.k.a. Sir Arthur Conan Dole)

 

"A lack of planning on your part, does not constitute an emergency on my part"

 

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