Music is degraded to *MONO* 10kHz @ 48 kbit/s?!

[moardib]

I don't see the point to replace the sound files...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Someone asked if this would cause problems in the game. The point is: if some wav files contain the same music, is it possible to get the higher quality KOTOR 1 music and replace the cheesy quality music that came in KOTOR 2?

 

It's only a matter of knowing if it works or not. If it does, it proves that the very same sound engine was used and a patch would be only a matter of copy/paste files. It's so easy to do this it's almost unbelievable. And I know Obsidian can do better, it's only a matter of how many people complain.

 

markussun posted in the forums and we all read and listened: the music lacks impedance, clearness, high tones. And we know it was performed by a full orchestra, recorded with the highest quality equipment and mixed in Skywalker Sound. As far as I know, we should be getting 5.1 Dolby Surround Sound. And all this effort was chopped down by compression algorithms to save a few megabytes... what a shame.

 

[]s

Moardib

[hoos134]

For clarification on moardib's test, for digital music, the maximum frequency recorded is slightly less then half of the sampled frequency. So, that would put the top recorded frequency around 15kHz or (more likely) even lower. With Lucasarts (who has the advantage of being part of the company that CREATED THX) doing this recording, its shocking to me that someone at LA would allow this to happen.

 

As moardib pointed out, I personally feel that saving a couple megabytes is a very poor justification to destroy this music like this. As a recording technician, I would also feel upset if my work was presented in mono. A great deal of work went into creating a powerful soundtrack, and I implore Obsidian/Lucasarts to rectify this mistake and give us a soundtrack worthy of all previous Star Wars soundtracks that have gone before.

[swaaye]

For clarification on moardib's test, for digital music, the maximum frequency recorded is slightly less then half of the sampled frequency.  So, that would put the top recorded frequency around 15kHz or (more likely) even lower.  With Lucasarts (who has the advantage of being part of the company that CREATED THX) doing this recording, its shocking to me that someone at LA would allow this to happen.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Actually, it's worse than that. Go back and read the first post.

 

Obsidian used LAME 3.93 to encode the MP3s. Great encoder, but the user didn't exactly research proper settings. He used some really terrible custom options, including a 10,900 Hz Lowpass filter. This means everything above 10,900 Hz is gone even though LAME used a 32khz sampling rate. Welcome to the world of basically AM-radio quality people. There's not much left of the high frequencies in these mp3's.

 

It comes down to 2 things. We don't know why they used such low quality. Saving space wasn't an issue cuz there is 80MB available on CD4. Secondly, they didn't know how to use LAME. Constant bitrate 48kbit/s, 32Khz, 10.9Khz lowpass, Mono doesn't make much sense......that is just horrific quality. It's like they thought they just had NO space left for music (the music directory containing the entire soundtrack is 37MB! lol)

 

LucasArts/Obsidian: You want to use LAME? Great choice. Next time use "--alt-preset standard" or at least "--alt-preset 160". Thanks.

[Master Dahvernas]

For clarification on moardib's test, for digital music, the maximum frequency recorded is slightly less then half of the sampled frequency.  So, that would put the top recorded frequency around 15kHz or (more likely) even lower.  With Lucasarts (who has the advantage of being part of the company that CREATED THX) doing this recording, its shocking to me that someone at LA would allow this to happen.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Actually, it's worse than that. Go back and read the first post.

 

Obsidian used LAME 3.93 to encode the MP3s. Great encoder, but the user didn't exactly research proper settings. He used some really terrible custom options, including a 10,900 Hz Lowpass filter. This means everything above 10,900 Hz is gone even though LAME used a 32khz sampling rate. Welcome to the world of basically AM-radio quality people. There's not much left of the high frequencies in these mp3's.

 

It comes down to 2 things. We don't know why they used such low quality. Saving space wasn't an issue cuz there is 80MB available on CD4. Secondly, they didn't know how to use LAME. Constant bitrate 48kbit/s, 32Khz, 10.9Khz lowpass, Mono doesn't make much sense......that is just horrific quality. It's like they thought they just had NO space left for music (the music directory containing the entire soundtrack is 37MB! lol)

 

LucasArts/Obsidian: You want to use LAME? Great choice. Next time use "--alt-preset standard" or at least "--alt-preset 160". Thanks.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I wonder if they tried to save space on the master (DVD copy) on the XBox since the XBox version also includes a demo of Republic Commando which is like 600-800 MBs and they simply erased that disc usage, but didn't fill it with higher quality music when they coverted it for the PC?

 

Also, I think the low-quality mono score might have been an actual design choice because all the developer dairies and interviews said the number one thing they wanted to do was free up system memory (all 64 MBs for the XBox) to make the game run smoother than the first one did... That is highly ironic since both the XBox version and PC of TSL runs worse than the first one did (patched or unpatched).

 

I bet they figured that if they used mono-sound that it would free up not oly the memory but CPU cycles as well. This is the only "logical" (to them) reason I can thnk of why they purposefully decided to use mono and such a low sampling rate.

[glincoln]

Emailing LucasArts has so far been pretty pointless. I sent a very short polite reqest, and got back a scripted response telling me to check to see if my soundcard was direct X compliant or that perhaps my speakers were too loud. (!!)

 

They required I attach a dxdiag.txt to my request. If they had bothered to read it or the message I wrote, they would have seen that it wasn't a soundcard problem, and that I have an Audigy 2 which is supported by direct x.

 

I've attached what I sent and their reply. If you want to help get LucasArts/Obsidian to do something about this, but don't know what to write, feel free to use my message.

 

Here's what I sent:

I'm writing to express my disappointment regarding the sound

quality of the music in the game. The composition itself is so good, and

so much effort and money was put into recording it properly, yet in the

game it is only very low quality mono.

 

I really can't understand why this is. Please look over this post for more

information:

http://forums.obsidianent.com/index.php?showtopic=30382&hl=

 

I would really appreciate a patch with high quality music.

 

Here's what they replied:

If you are hearing static in the game, your sound card may not be fully DirectX

compatible. You may want to determine whether DirectX supports your sound card. To

do this:

 

- Click on Start to open the start menu.

- Click on Run.

- Type DXDiag into the Run dialog box.

- Click OK. This takes you to the DirectX Diagnostics screen.

- Click on the Sound tab.

 

We recommend that you test DirectSound.  If any of these tests fail, please check

for updated drivers for the hardware. If you continue to have problems after

updating the drivers, we recommend that you contact the hardware manufacturer of

the card for further assistance.

 

2.  Your volume may be turned up too loud in Windows.

3.  Your amplified speakers may be plugged into speaker-out on your sound card.

[swaaye]

Heh. I sent a not-so-short email to them and have received no response whatsoever. Not very professional, nor very comforting. I also went through the hoops of putting a DXDiag listing in there, and filled out their many drop-down boxes (filled with obsolete hardware no less, so I couldn't even be accurate)

[Horus]

bump.

[Kiwegapa]

Their lack of effort in dealing with the public is underwhelming. Hmm. Not only poor PR but poor tech support as well.

[Master Dahvernas]

Their lack of effort in dealing with the public is underwhelming. Hmm. Not only poor PR but poor tech support as well. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Not to be an ass... But this game is DONE. It's finished.

 

OE has moved on. They have said so in various e-mails that have been posted in the General Discussion Forum as well as the Spoilers Forum for any that are interested.

 

We are not going to see the cut-endings restored (at least not by OE or LA; modders may do it, but I have my doubts to be honest), or get a high quality soundtrack., or get better FMVs.

 

However, as a result, as a consumer I also have the right not to recommend this game or NWN2 to anyone else who is an D&D RPG fan as well and if that ultimately sees OE go under like Troika that will be a shame, but the point is I am being a realist and accepted that TSL is just not as good a game as the first one mostly because it was never a fully finished product and never will be.

[Archon_Black]

Maybe they fired the person who did this? Since they are hiring new people? Shrug...

[Mark Havel]

If they fired and replaced the **** who butchered the musics, I hope they will release a better soundtrack...

 

Edit: Why is there a word filter in this forum? Is it forbidden to say what I mean?

[Fearless_Jedi]

This would probably explain why my sound gets messed up sometimes, totally agree with what poster said.

[markussun]

Excellent. Thanks for all the comments, guys! This is going in the right direction. Keep it up.

 

If more people let LucasArts know how they feel about this MONO music issue, something will soon be done about it.

Please contribute to this effort by emailing LucasArts and letting them know directly.

Let's all pull together on this.

[Master Dahvernas]

Excellent. Thanks for all the comments, guys! This is going in the right direction. Keep it up.

 

If more people let LucasArts know how they feel about this MONO music issue, something will soon be done about it.

Please contribute to this effort by emailing LucasArts and letting them know directly.

Let's all pull together on this.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Not to be a jerk once more...

 

But do you guys ever visit the main Forums like the General Discussion and Spoilers Forums?

 

If you did, you would know what is going on.

 

This forum... ALL OF THEM... Are going to be closed shortly until (if) they find a Community Manager to better run the place.

 

This isn't news and isn't that relevant to this particular issue in and of itself..

 

But what is are some of the posts and e-mails that have been posted (with permission) where OE developers have baiscally said there is no plans for a content-pack as of yet -- and resampled music would fall under that -- As they have already put in a request to LA and it is everyone's best guess they (LA) will most likely ignore it since they've already made their money from both the XBox and PC sales.

 

Also... Be "lucky" we are getting patches for the technical problems becuase I think the relationship between the fans and LA... And OE to some extent... Is not on the best of terms right now since this game is basically in a post-alpha, pre-beta state for a lot of people, mono music aside.

 

So, I am not saying don't e-mail LA, belive it or not.

 

However, be aware LA is known to get more "annoyed" with its "fans" if you perpetually keep hounding them on issues they have no intention of recitifying, so it might behoove some of you to focus your energies elsewhere, or just accept it for what it is and move on.

 

Flame away...

[Lundquist]

This is the only thing about the game I can't let go - I'd actually rather have a higher quality music pack than all the bugs fixed. I have an easier time living with the bugs than this ultra low quality music - it annoys me to no end, haunts me even.

[Mark Havel]

If nobody flames Lucas Arts or Obsidian, they'll think "all right, let's continue to sell rushed and unfinished games, they continue to be sold without any noise!". The more Lucas Arts will be annoyed, the less they'll be tempted to rush their future games or to butcher the music.

Continue to mail them about all the issues of the game (bugs, butchered musics, rushed and incoherent end), especially Lucas Arts who is the publishers and holds technical support.

[Sleepy]

Ive sent off my email to complain as this game IS a joke. Im not a hi-fi buff but I can tell the sound is crap. I mentioned this to my brother who is a hi-fi buff and he tells me that CD quality sound is 16 bit 48khz and just click on any of the music wav files and select properties - you can see they are 8 bit mono 22khz.

 

Ive also had the bug mentioned by Swaave where all my NPCs disappear leaving me to fight several very difficult battles with just my main character. Im about ready to ditch this game altogether.

[Master Dahvernas]

Ive also had the bug mentioned by Swaave where all my NPCs disappear leaving me to fight several very difficult battles with just my main character.  Im about ready to ditch this game altogether.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

This is NOT a bug.

 

You need to use the Party Selection screen to RE-ADD your party members. I wish OE had given a pop-up notice to let the player know this, however.

[markussun]

I've updated some text and the feedback link on the main page of this thread, since LucasArts has changed their site and my link was rendered broken.

 

The previous way of sending feedback was not working.

 

So, I encourage everyone again to use the new link at the top of this thread and give feedback to LA on this bothersome issue, using the provided means. This includes everyone who has already done that previously, with the old link.

 

It simply sucks to play KotOR2 with such terrible low-quality music in MONO. :'(

[Judge Hades]

You catch more flies with honey than vinegar as the old saying goes. I send some e-mails to these people but I did not flame or use profanity. I simply stated my opinion in a calm manner and stated that a content patch of siginificant size would indeed be best.

[markussun]

Wisely spoken, Hades.

 

It goes without saying that if people contact a company, they better show an appropriate level of conduct and civilized manner in their writing, otherwise they be ignored.

 

But it's probably best to stress this point again, for all those who think that being rude in an email gets them anywhere. There is always a polite way as a customer to express your anger and frustration with a product.

 

So to all who use the feedback link: Write in a civilized manner!

[Nur Ab Sal]

It was quite a storm here, but I wonder if it will have any effects? None of Obsidian and LA crew seems interested in fixing probably most incredible bug in gaming history...

[Judge Hades]

From my knowledge there are peeps at Obsidian who would be very interested in fixing KotOR 2 in whole. Its Lucas Arts that are holding things back.

[markussun]

From my knowledge there are peeps at Obsidian who would be very interested in fixing KotOR 2 in whole.  Its Lucas Arts that are holding things back.

 

Really? Then I strongly hope that those at Obsidian who care about finishing and polishing their maiden effort (which ended up stillborn) will have the guts to put in the effort to persuade LA to greenlight a solid and comprehensive patch.

 

Will they have the clout to convince the ever-so-elusive and oh-so-busy producer Mike Gallo at LucasArts (who is responsible for this mess) to give them the go-ahead?

 

Mr. Gallo's priorities right now lie with the oh-so-important consoley Ep.III game. Sure, it will make them a lot of money... but in the end, when the dust settles, this cash-in project will be utterly forgotten (like all their previous movie-tie-ins). But it will be the KOTOR Series for which LA will be remembered, because this series has substance and is really meaningful to many gamers and Star Wars fans alike.

 

Running such a triple-A series into the ground by abandoning their games, ignoring their customers and failing to amend the issues, will cost them much more in the end.

 

I hope I will see the day when LA changes their crash course in the industry...

[Master Dahvernas]

As I posted on another thread...

 

This idealism that PC games -- and by extension, KOTOR -- Means something "special" to LA is ludicrous.

 

Why?

 

Becasue console games are the wave of the future, right or wrong. PC games come in third after consoles and hand helds in terms of market share and sales. Ergo, all publishers are now concentrating on consoles as the primary revenue generators and PC ports as an afterthought.

 

This is very relevant to what is going on with TSL because LA is just like most other publishers in the world of gaming right now: The quick, easy sales of console type games that generate a short amount of profit for a short time and then they move onto the next quick sales. The days of product quality and reputation are long gone.

 

The only way you're going to see anything of significance happen that will make publishers like LA -- and companies like OE to some extent -- Sit up and take notice is when console sales start to plumet because this is what has their ear right now and in the near future with the XBox 2, PS3 and GameCube 2 all coming in the latter half of the year... And I don't see this happening since console gamers are a completely different demographic in terms of age and expectations and who will settle for less if given the choice.