Mark Havel Posted February 21, 2005 Share Posted February 21, 2005 It is actually because of the Xbox Dolby Digital encoder, the latency is so ungodly bad that if they made the audio any bigger the music will lagg way behind the scene. the smaller the files the lower the latency on the xbox, on the PC it's not the case for non-on board sound chips, but they din't mod the audio in anyway from the xbox besided EAX2/3/ Halo 1/2 audio is also not great.. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> As far as I know, the XBox is nFORCE powered and the sound is made by a Sound Storm solution, so it's not a piece of crappy AC'97... The KotOR I's soundtrack was encoded in 128 kbps 441100 Hz Stereo MP3 (at least on PC) and it did not seem to cause any trouble to this same XBox. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swaaye Posted February 21, 2005 Share Posted February 21, 2005 Xbox's Dolby Digital encoder is a very capable hardware-based DSP that more than gets the job done, and with VERY low latency. It is by far the best audio solution in any of the current consoles. Trust me, it can play back 48Khz, 16-bit audio with NO problem (in fact 64 parallel streams of 3D audio at once!) nForce/nForce 2 have the same DSP if you get the MCP-T southbridge. Unfortunately this chip has had driver problems from the beginning and has to deal with DirectX audio instead of whatever is in Xbox (probably a down to the metal API). It does work very well for the most part though. A friend of mine uses it for Dolby Digital 5.1 thru an optical cable to his receiver. There is absolutely no latency I could detect in 3D games when using Dolby Digital. I believe it supports EAX 2, but Sensaura is its primary 3D Sound algorithm. The developers have some nifty tools to design placement of 3D sounds. Aw well. It's probably a pipe dream that LEC will re-encode the music. But it would sure be nice, and a great gesture on their part. Along with some bug fixes! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mutombo Posted February 22, 2005 Share Posted February 22, 2005 not only for the customers, for the artitsts too. its a shame that their great work get stripped down to nothing. why did they do such eforts while recording and then screw everything while encoding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swaaye Posted February 22, 2005 Share Posted February 22, 2005 The more I play, the more I wish the music was encoded better. The game has an excellent soundtrack that sounds like Star Wars, and it fits the mood of the game perfectly. Hell, it sets the mood as far as I'm concerned. The only weakness of the composition is that it loops quite a bit in some areas, and it looks a bit too noticeably. But, damn, I wish they'd give us a better quality version! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiwegapa Posted February 23, 2005 Share Posted February 23, 2005 Agreed. I don't have finely tuned ears, but I can hear that something's off and it bothers me, especially when the music loops frequently or when it swells in volume, drowning out the spoken dialog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Havel Posted February 25, 2005 Share Posted February 25, 2005 Bump. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2DarkWolf2 Posted February 26, 2005 Share Posted February 26, 2005 I had'nt noticed this thread before. I had avoided these forums until I completed the game once myself. I always liked the music in KoToR I, and thought I don't think the KoToR II music is'nt quite as good, part of it might be a product of the crummy encoding. I totally agree that releasing a patch with the better music files would be great, I would certainly download it! 2DW2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meshugger Posted February 26, 2005 Share Posted February 26, 2005 Xbox's Dolby Digital encoder is a very capable hardware-based DSP that more than gets the job done, and with VERY low latency. It is by far the best audio solution in any of the current consoles. Trust me, it can play back 48Khz, 16-bit audio with NO problem (in fact 64 parallel streams of 3D audio at once!) nForce/nForce 2 have the same DSP if you get the MCP-T southbridge. Unfortunately this chip has had driver problems from the beginning and has to deal with DirectX audio instead of whatever is in Xbox (probably a down to the metal API). It does work very well for the most part though. A friend of mine uses it for Dolby Digital 5.1 thru an optical cable to his receiver. There is absolutely no latency I could detect in 3D games when using Dolby Digital. I believe it supports EAX 2, but Sensaura is its primary 3D Sound algorithm. The developers have some nifty tools to design placement of 3D sounds. Aw well. It's probably a pipe dream that LEC will re-encode the music. But it would sure be nice, and a great gesture on their part. Along with some bug fixes! <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I'm currently playing TSL with my nForce2 mobo + Dolby Digital 5.1 through the optical output, while the speaker seperation is excellent (duh!), the sheer quality of it is mediocre due to the MONO soundtrack. Have you got any reply from Lucasarts or Griskey yet markussun? "Some men see things as they are and say why?""I dream things that never were and say why not?"- George Bernard Shaw"Hope in reality is the worst of all evils because it prolongs the torments of man."- Friedrich Nietzsche "The amount of energy necessary to refute bull**** is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it." - Some guy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markussun Posted February 26, 2005 Author Share Posted February 26, 2005 ...quality of it is mediocre due to the MONO soundtrack. Have you got any reply from Lucasarts or Griskey yet markussun? No, not yet. <_< Have you? I tell you, we need more people giving feedback to LucasArts about this issue, or nothing will come of it, and we'll be stuck with MONO music forever. It's a pathetic status quo, that I just won't accept. And I swear, I have a surprise in store for you Meshugger (and Swaaye, and Kiwegapa, and Mark, and Ace, and everyone else I can't remember who spoke up about this issue!), and for all who appreciate good sound quality and music in games. I can't talk about it yet, but I swear here and now, that if LucasArts/Obsidian won't do anything about this horrid music issue -- I will! Either way, the music will be fixed. It can either be done properly by LucasArts' chosing, and if not, it will be done on our (the community) terms. As a long-time gamer and Star Wars fan, I won't put up with this rubbish they've thrown us... :angry: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markussun Posted February 26, 2005 Author Share Posted February 26, 2005 Hi everyone, I've updated my original post in this thread with a link to LucasArts' online feedback form, which is the only way you can send them feedback and let them know what's troubling you about KOTOR2. I've supplied this direct link here, because I found that many people can't find it on their website. They make it very difficult to find (only after using their online troubleshoot system and then only after it fails to help you, and even then the link isn't obvious). It seems LucasArts isn't too keen about hearing from their customers... Anyways, if you are one of the people who enter threads at the last page, I encourage you to read the original post on PAGE 1 of this thread to learn about the music issue in KOTOR2. If you're not in the mood of reading a lot, here is my plea: Please contribute just a few minutes of your time to make a difference and email LucasArts: CLICK HERE to request the proper 44kHz *STEREO* music for KotOR2 Telling LucasArts how you feel about the degraded music is arguably the single-most effective way you can contribute to this effort. If continuing feedback shows them that this is a bothersome issue to more than a handful customers, they will do something about it (as history showed with KotOR1). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lundquist Posted February 26, 2005 Share Posted February 26, 2005 Done and done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FunkyPoopMonkey Posted February 26, 2005 Share Posted February 26, 2005 I just want to say I submitted my letter to their customer service link. Hope I didn't sound too harsh. We definantly need some attention over here. And markussum, I'm glad you are willing to replace the music for us, so I won't have to. I just wanna ask, the xbox version does indeed have high quality music correct? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiwegapa Posted February 26, 2005 Share Posted February 26, 2005 I don't know about the music, but when I extract textures, some of them have comments like 'xbox_downsample 256'. The textures are pretty good except that in some areas they seem unfinished (Peragus, NPCs on Iziz) and some seem like they would benefit from being a size or two larger. A few seem to not be entirely matched to the model they're on, leading to parts which stretch and look blocky. You can notice this on Darth Sion if you look close at his upper torso. I know that seems a bit off-topic, but it shows, to me at least, that the game got rushed to deadline and the artists had to make sacrifices. I also have to wonder whether the game had to be squeezed down for the XBox discs. How many did it come on for XBox? One? Two? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adrich81 Posted February 26, 2005 Share Posted February 26, 2005 Well, I've emailed them, for what it's worth... Given the KOTOR 1 and 2 both use the same engine, is there any way, as a temporary fix, to extract the original soundtrack, and rename the files for use with Sith Lords? I'd imagine that it should be possible, but has anyone tried it? If it is possible, can someone let me know as I've got a few days off next week and will try to give it a shot. Cheers! - We can get this sorted :ph34r: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Dahvernas Posted February 26, 2005 Share Posted February 26, 2005 I don't know about the music, but when I extract textures, some of them have comments like 'xbox_downsample 256'. The textures are pretty good except that in some areas they seem unfinished (Peragus, NPCs on Iziz) and some seem like they would benefit from being a size or two larger. A few seem to not be entirely matched to the model they're on, leading to parts which stretch and look blocky. You can notice this on Darth Sion if you look close at his upper torso. I know that seems a bit off-topic, but it shows, to me at least, that the game got rushed to deadline and the artists had to make sacrifices. I also have to wonder whether the game had to be squeezed down for the XBox discs. How many did it come on for XBox? One? Two? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> A big reason for all of the "shortcuts" was to free up memory... All 64 MBs of it... On the XBox so the game would *cough* supposedly run better *cough*. That's a joke. The XBox version is barely playable given the 1999 PC specs of the XBox. As far as how many discs... It is approximately 4.5 Gigs (uncompressed), so just one DVD --- How all XBox games come and how the PC versions should have been released given it is 2005. And for those wondering... The music tracks on the XBox version are also in MONO. Again, probably to free up memory so the game would run better... Which is once again a joke since the Nforce2 mobo the XBox has can actually do full stereo wavs and mp3s without much trouble and latency (even on a PIII). Every other game has stereo quality sound as far as music and effects go. This is just complete BS and I don't buy a lick of it when the devs keep saying it was to make the game run better (the game literally strobes and crawls on the XBox in the Peragus mining tunnels as it does on the PC). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swaaye Posted February 26, 2005 Share Posted February 26, 2005 I've sent out a letter to LucasArt's tech support. Let's see if they respond..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judge Hades Posted February 26, 2005 Share Posted February 26, 2005 I was able to solve my sound problems like this. Oh, this is for the Sound Blaster Audigy 2. 1: Remove all sound drivers from your computer. 2: Download all the Base EAX sound drivers. 3: Install them sequentially from the oldest to the newest. This really increased the sound performance of the game and my computer as a whole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swaaye Posted February 26, 2005 Share Posted February 26, 2005 I was able to solve my sound problems like this. Oh, this is for the Sound Blaster Audigy 2. 1: Remove all sound drivers from your computer. 2: Download all the Base EAX sound drivers. 3: Install them sequentially from the oldest to the newest. This really increased the sound performance of the game and my computer as a whole. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> You must have fixed some 3D audio problems with sound positioning perhaps. There's nothing that can be done with the music other than reproduction by LucasArts or Obsidian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
themacman Posted February 27, 2005 Share Posted February 27, 2005 Xbox's Dolby Digital encoder is a very capable hardware-based DSP that more than gets the job done, and with VERY low latency. It is by far the best audio solution in any of the current consoles. Trust me, it can play back 48Khz, 16-bit audio with NO problem (in fact 64 parallel streams of 3D audio at once!) nForce/nForce 2 have the same DSP if you get the MCP-T southbridge. Unfortunately this chip has had driver problems from the beginning and has to deal with DirectX audio instead of whatever is in Xbox (probably a down to the metal API). It does work very well for the most part though. A friend of mine uses it for Dolby Digital 5.1 thru an optical cable to his receiver. There is absolutely no latency I could detect in 3D games when using Dolby Digital. I believe it supports EAX 2, but Sensaura is its primary 3D Sound algorithm. The developers have some nifty tools to design placement of 3D sounds. Aw well. It's probably a pipe dream that LEC will re-encode the music. But it would sure be nice, and a great gesture on their part. Along with some bug fixes! <{POST_SNAPBACK}> the latency is a wopping 60ms "at best''. which isn't good for any modern card Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smilodon Posted February 27, 2005 Share Posted February 27, 2005 Done, hope it helps Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swaaye Posted February 27, 2005 Share Posted February 27, 2005 the latency is a wopping 60ms "at best''.which isn't good for any modern card <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I'm telling ya I NEVER heard any latency from my friend's nForce 2 system linked to his DD5.1 receiver thru optical. He never complained either. 60ms is 6 hundredths of a second, assuming you are even correct in that figure, which is certainly NOT a big deal. Hell, DirectSound probably has latency like that and maybe you're seeing that? You'd need ASIO to get ultra low latency out of any program. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moardib Posted February 27, 2005 Share Posted February 27, 2005 Superb job. After reading this post, I immediately opened the music stream folders of my KOTOR installs (yes, KOTOR 1 is still installed). It's a simple comparison. I used Miles Sound Tools for this little experiment. It's a small (less than 1MB), free download, so you may try yourself. I used two files. They are the same music and by simply listening, you notice the difference in quality: - From KOTOR 1: mus_theme_cult.wav (1.405.971 bytes) - From KOTOR 2: mus_sith.wav (518.242 bytes) I used Miles Sound Studio to decompress the files into standard wav format with PCM encoding. The results were: mus_theme_cult.wav - KOTOR I, Bioware Bit rate: 1411kbps* Sample size: 16 bit Sample rate: 44 kHz Channels: 2 (stereo) mus_sith.wav - KOTOR II, Obsidian Bit rate: 512kbps* Sample size: 16 bit Sample rate: 32 kHz Channels: 1 (mono) I don't have a software to make a deeper inspection like spectral decay, but by simply looking at these stats, you can notice something is not right. And don't be fooled by the 32 kHz. This simply means a maximum rate. I also peeked at Neverwinter Nights sound files and this is what I found: mus_bat_aribeth.bmu - Neverwinter Nights, Bioware Bit rate: 1024kbps* Sample size: 32 bit Sample rate: 44 kHz Channels: 2 (stereo) There is simply NO excuse for using sub-standard, low quality files. The least Lucasarts and Obsidian should do is what have been said before: high quality sound pack. I't's not hard to do: when exporting, choose "CD Quality". Zip it and let us download it. Heck, even make a torrent file so we don't need to wait in line with bloated, slow servers. Make our money worth. Next test, I'll experiment replacing sound files. Since the game uses the very same Aurora Engine and Miles Sound, I guess it should be no problem at all. *Units are in kilobits per second. To convert to bytes, divide by 8. Ex: 512 kbps becomes 64kBps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodatam Posted February 28, 2005 Share Posted February 28, 2005 I think its not THAT hard to make this patch and make it a torrent and would REALLY be good for the image of the company finishing the game with patches is much better than letting the product half-baked.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Havel Posted February 28, 2005 Share Posted February 28, 2005 I don't see the point to replace the sound files... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swaaye Posted February 28, 2005 Share Posted February 28, 2005 I don't see the point to replace the sound files... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> ? I hope you are referring to replacing KOTOR2 music with KOTOR1 and are not saying that getting a HQ KOTOR2 soundtrack is a bad idea.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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