Hi...and at the risk of sounding DUH!

[GamerFromStart]

First: Hi Feargus, Chris and all of Obsidian, who's work on past games I have enjoyed immensely!!

I look forward to great things from you soon. (no pressure).

 

 

Second: As this is the suggestion thread.......and at a risk of sounding DUH! here goes:

 

There are many aspects to a great CRPG game and we can all rattle them off forever. However, I think it is apparent that it is the RP part of a CRPG that makes a CRPG truly great. And, of course, this is usually the most time consuming and most difficult to accomplish. Again, which is why there are so few great CRPG games around.

 

Your previous work set new bars for world creation and in depth role playing. I do not think the immediate future is to make the RP world bigger, rather my humble suggestion is set the 21st century CRPG at a 21st century level and to me that means in the end a greater focus on replay-ability.

 

The ability to replay a game with a "new/different" character, with some different dialougue, different events, different endings, maybe a different antagonist is, to me, the true icing on the cake. And what's a cake without icing?!

 

And for all those who are saying now....Duh, this has been done before!....the point is....exactly....my suggestion is that replay-ability be polished in your new games, be it PC or Console.

 

Good Luck!! And if you need a beta tester......... :D I'm just an email away.

 

Thank you.

[Hydrogen]

It may be DUH, but it also sounds like you thought before you wrote, or at least before you submitted. The ideas that you have put into place are good ones, and the nice thing about the crew at Obsidian is that many of the guys there are honest to goodness gamers.

[Soda]

In many ways replay ability is was makes a game a RPG and not an adventure/action game. Replay ability (RP) starts when one makes ones character - and leaves character options unused - and ends with u having different endings depending on choices made - leaving paths unused.

 

Hmm, in all, I agree wholeheartedly with our post. RP comes first and foremost in my importance-list, before elements such as

[Kevin Lynch]

I wholeheartedly agree on the importance of replayability. While it is obviously important to have a good setting, story, interesting characters, etc, as a single player I want to be able to replay the game with as many different character types with varying degrees of alterations in the storyline.

 

Take, for example, PS:T. A truly remarkable game with a fascinating setting, a story of depth and quality, and characters that were unique and allowed you to believe in them. However, it lacked replayability (which, to it's credit, didn't impact on its overall quality). I played it twice, the second time in a manner that let me get the most out of the story. After that second time through, I knew that I had played it in the most enjoyable possible manner and didn't want to ruin the experience by playing it over and over.

 

On the otherhand, games like the BGs, IWDs, FOs, MW, NWN, etc, all allowed you to develop very different characters and/or party compositions, if you chose. While none of them could measure up to a PS:T in terms of story, setting, and, arguably, characters, they added a degree of replayability that can keep a player returning for more. As a result, each of those games has the potential to remain a part of a player's leisure time for a much longer period than a game like PS:T would.

[GamerFromStart]

...Take, for example, PS:T. A truly remarkable game with a fascinating setting, a story of depth and quality, and characters that were unique and allowed you to believe in them. However, it lacked replayability (which, to it's credit, didn't impact on its overall quality). I played it twice, the second time in a manner that let me get the most out of the story. After that second time through, I knew that I had played it in the most enjoyable possible manner and didn't want to ruin the experience by playing it over and over.

 

On the otherhand, games like the BGs, IWDs, FOs, MW, NWN, etc, all allowed you to develop very different characters and/or party compositions, if you chose. While none of them could measure up to a PS:T in terms of story, setting, and, arguably, characters, they added a degree of replayability that can keep a player returning for more. As a result, each of those games has the potential to remain a part of a player's leisure time for a much longer period than a game like PS:T would.

Ahhhhh, a brother spirit.

 

Yes, while I enjoyed the very different PS:T world, it did lack the ability to enjoy it again and again from other perspectives and so, as you, I have enjoyed the other games you have mentioned, much, much more.

 

And, while I'm thinking about it, I have had this nagging question, which I hope one of you can help me with.....

 

It is partly my understanding that game companies are moving to console games because of better sales and probably part of these "better sales" have to do with a lack of ability by the gamer to ...ahem....illegaly copy the console and give it to their best buds.

 

Question: what ever happened to PC CD-ROM security features to at least somewhat encourage people to buy it themselves and not get a copy from others? I feel even the most modest features, like an alpha-numeric key per disc can deter the quick copy and thus sales loss. Any thoughts?

[Judge Hades]

The key word here is balance. Character creation options and multiple story paths aid in replayability but at the same time does not promote good story cohesion. Games like PS:T and KotOR have great story cohesion and focus, but at the same time lack character creation options. Morrowind on the otherhand has a wide range of character creation options and such, but lacks any sort of focus.

 

Now KotOR does sport multiple story paths, namely 2 of them, but while a game like Fallout had multiple paths that led to quite a number of endings. Fallout, though graphically lacking in terms of today's games was a good balance of character creation options, multiple story paths, and story focus.

 

If Obsidian can achieve this, yet have a story on par as PS:T, then they would have a game worthy of being titled Game of the Year. Of course that is a very big "If."

[~Di]

I love games like PS:T and KotOR, with depth of story, depth of characters, just plain depth. Alas, they have considerably less replay value for me personally than games like BG2, IWD1, and JA2 where playing the game for its own sake (and creating different types of characters using differing methods for success) is the thrill.

 

Methinks we need both kinds of games.

[Kevin Lynch]

It is partly my understanding that game companies are moving to console games because of better sales and probably part of these "better sales" have to do with a lack of ability by the gamer to ...ahem....illegaly copy the console and give it to their best buds.

 

Question: what ever happened to PC CD-ROM security features to at least somewhat encourage people to buy it themselves and not get a copy from others? I feel even the most modest features, like an alpha-numeric key per disc can deter the quick copy and thus sales loss. Any thoughts?

I think the major pressure for game companies to move to consoles is their ability to focus on a specific build without the compatibility problems that crop up with PCs. PC: game works well with one video card then you stick in another and the whole thing doesn't work. Console: no worries, there's only one set of possible configurations.

 

Everyone knows that illegal copying of software (games included) is a major problem that impacts the entire industry. However, the issue really comes down to the penalties for the illegal actions. There are no consequences for the vast majority of casual users out there, and, as a result, the industry relies on good intentions, the moral and ethical attitudes of those that purchase the software. Unfortunately, in my experience, if people think they can get away with something, they will try to do it when they don't see how it hurts anyone else.

 

So PC game publishers, like most other software industry members, try to force the consumer into using security technologies that have had very mixed results, instead of focusing on the true problem: enforcement and punishment for theft. I don't think any of the security measures currently in place can or will ever deter those users who want to carry on with casual illegal activity.

[deganawida]

[so PC game publishers, like most other software industry members, try to force the consumer into using security technologies that have had very mixed results, instead of focusing on the true problem: enforcement and punishment for theft. I don't think any of the security measures currently in place can or will ever deter those users who want to carry on with casual illegal activity.

This is true: without the threat of censure, there is no impetus for those who pirate (really, it's simple theft, not piracy) to cease their activities. Why? 'Cause they're getting their games for free with no possible repercussions, and they can justify it completely to themselves by saying that they need it and can't afford it, or that the company overcharges, or that they'd never buy the game anyway, or any number of other excuses. It's a win-win situation for those who pirate, in that they get the game, save their money, and don't have to worry about a guilty conscience. The only way to break this cycle (short of all pirates miraculously having a change of heart) is to enforce the law and prosecute individuals who pirate software.

[GamerFromStart]

Methinks we need both kinds of games.

I guess...but I would hope that those games that do not offer the replay ability of the games mentioned would follow a longer storyline and be that much better in other aspects, else I couldn't help but feel that the total value wasn't there.

 

Or in other words, if I ever had a choice between a beautiful game with a single start and single end vs. a very nice game with multiple starts and multiple ends, I'm buying the latter first.

 

This is not to say I wouldn't buy the former, but I might wait till it was out a while for the price to come way down, knowing that once it's done....it's done.

[GamerFromStart]

The key word here is balance. 

 

Fallout, though graphically lacking in terms of today's games was a good balance of character creation options, multiple story paths, and story focus.

Yes, I'm for balance.

 

And just for disclosure (not to start any more rabid discussions of future possibilities!!), I am a huge Fallout fan. The game was very good - from initial idea/setting to endings, lots of fun, had some loose ends, some missing overall cohesion, but great balance with your own character choices, resulting dialogue differences, as well as choosing/outifitting NPCs, so on and so on.

 

In any event, there have been many games, which have gone down the path of a great CRPG and balance was critical.

 

Again, I feel choices / options and replay ability are the icing of the cake -- too much icing and you defeat the purpose of the cake, not enough icing and you go .......eh....it was good.

[GamerFromStart]

[so PC game publishers, like most other software industry members, try to force the consumer into using security technologies that have had very mixed results, instead of focusing on the true problem: enforcement and punishment for theft. I don't think any of the security measures currently in place can or will ever deter those users who want to carry on with casual illegal activity.

 

This is true: without the threat of censure, there is no impetus for those who pirate (really, it's simple theft, not piracy) to cease their activities.

Well, this I believe is one of those unenforceable goals. However, you can at least make it more difficult for people with security measures. IMO, even the slightest security features would be beneficial as they would make people feel ok purchasing the game for $50.00, knowing that some other guy isn't gonna download it off the web a week later for $0.00 and people are generally lazy so putting a barrier in the way I feel can assist.

 

Look how well speed bumps work in a parking lot.

 

The problem now is that it seems PC CRPG companies have just given up totally, I think this is a disservice.

[Judge Hades]

As for software piracy, I am pretty much against it. Back in the days of the Commodore 64 I was a major software pirate here in the Midwest. At one time I had $250,000 (adjusted to today's dollar value) worth of pirated games, utilities, and applications. Then I stopped. I ditched the Commodore 64, erase and destroyed all my discs, and moved on. I realized that piracy was wrong and if I want people to respect my intellectual property I have to respect theirs.

 

Software piracy is pure disrespect to the software publishers, plain and simple, though I might be tempted to download Pagemaker or the latest version of Acrobat off Kazaa I have so far been able to quell that temptation.

[Exitium]

Once a thief, always a thief.

[Exitium]

So PC game publishers, like most other software industry members, try to force the consumer into using security technologies that have had very mixed results, instead of focusing on the true problem: enforcement and punishment for theft. I don't think any of the security measures currently in place can or will ever deter those users who want to carry on with casual illegal activity.

Can you be any more clueless?

 

If the courts listened to your suggestions the already-congested prisons will be clogged with people who download games and music. I really don't think that their offences are any way comparable to a rapist who brutalizes women, child molesterers, carjackers, bank robbers, street thugs and murderers. If such a law goes through, not only would it elevate software piracy to the level of hard crime, but degrade real hard crimes to being nothing more than minor fusses.

 

It's bad enough that the system is full of (otherwise productive) pot smokers and relatively innocent people who just got caught doing ecstacy or crack. Your suggestion for harsher punishment is ridiculous.

 

Enforcement and punishment for minor crimes like software theft (which is, unarguably, a crime nonetheless) is an asinine solution to a problem that will always be pervasive to the society we live in. Notice how states with the death sentence hardly have lower murder rates than any other state. In fact, studies suggest that murderers who know they are going to be sentenced to death are more likely to commit killing sprees than those who are able to get a maximum life sentence because they feel that they have absolutely nothing to lose. In Muslim socities where the punishment for many crimes (rape, murder, drug dealing) is death, the crime rates are even higher than those of more civilized socities. The threat of getting your hands cut off never stopped those thieves from committing theft and all it does is leave those poor people useless, unproductive and completely worthless to society without their hands, so how is that a good solution to anything?

 

As for computer games, I think that the best way to ensure a legitimate sale over that of an illegal download is to lower the prices to something affordable (70 dollars for NWN is hardly affordable to most people, especially those living outside the US) and to include extras in the package that people consider worth paying for. US Publishers could take a cue from Poland's publishers by including things like thick manuals, a help/hint guide, a novel (Poland's TOEE release comes with one), limited edition souviners (like bumper stickers, baseball caps, or a t-shirt) and most importantly proper jewel cases - NWN came in paper sheets. Most of these items would be included in the "collector's edition" in the United States, priced at an unaffordable 85 dollars. Production costs aren't even a quarter as high as that considering the fact that everything in it would be mass manufactured and not freaking hand made. The profiteering has got to stop.

[MrBrown]

Back in the days of the Commodore 64 I was a major software pirate here in the Midwest.

Was there ever non-pirate C64 gamers? <_<

[Sarjahurmaaja.]

"Well, this I believe is one of those unenforceable goals. However, you can at least make it more difficult for people with security measures. IMO, even the slightest security features would be beneficial as they would make people feel ok purchasing the game for $50.00, knowing that some other guy isn't gonna download it off the web a week later for $0.00 and people are generally lazy so putting a barrier in the way I feel can assist."

 

You do realise that all those security measures are not going to be an obstacle for anyone who can type "warez" or "crack"? Heck, in countries like Russia, you don't even have to be able to do that. You can buy a cracked CD with the game from a shop by the street if you want to.

One thing I would like for the software industry to realise is that all that security stuff can and will be cracked. So, all those authenticity checks are just going to annoy the people who actually paid for the game. Maybe it stops some 9-year old kid from pirating your newest game - that is, until that kid's big brother gets a crack for the game from some russian warez size - but is it really worth pissing of paying customers?

If you guys stopped making your customer's life harder, that'd make a lot more bigger dent on piratism than some useless copyprotections. Also, those extra goodies Exitium mentioned, those might just be enough of a reason for someone to actually pay for the game.

 

Oh, and for those who think that piracy can be fought with nastier laws: Get real. It is way too widespread.

[Fionavar]

This thread has been pruned. I would like to reiterate that personal problems/criticisms should be taken to PM! Furthermore, once a warning has been issued by a moderator, continuing to post in that manner will warrant a formal warning. If you find it difficult to post due to emption, please take a second to consider what you are going to say as this is a good thread, and I am sure no one wants to ruin it for others.

[Exitium]

Thank you! It looks much cleaner now and people can address the actual subject in discussion instead of engaging in unwitty, infantile arguments.

[GamerFromStart]

If you guys stopped making your customer's life harder, that'd make a lot more bigger dent on piratism than some useless copyprotections.

Well we disagree. I don't believe that copy protections are useless. Again, for me as a consumer, I would welcome at least some effort in this area for reasons already stated and I don't see how my life has been made harder except for the price! - cause I haven't seen any copy protections in a long while.

 

Well, at least we're talking about the issue and that's cool.

[Exitium]

All games today are copy protected, GamerFromStart. You might not realize it but if you tried to duplicate your cd it would probably reject your attempt, hence making it rather difficult (For the average user) to make a back-up copy of the CD, which is in your legal right to do.

 

The mere fact that some of the copy protection mechanisms slow-down your game's performance (sometimes to a halt, causing random freezes or outright crashes) is unacceptable to many, and is precisely the reason why a lot of people opt to download 'fixed' executable files to circumvent the copy protection, which are also legal, by the way - so long as you own a legitimate copy of the software.

 

I think it's a real hassle to search for your CD just because you want to run a game for the sole purpose of initializing the copy protection mechanism when everything you need to run the game is on your hard drive. I'd rather not take the CD out of its case, or it might get damaged through wear-and-tear or outright shatter if the CD is of low quality, as evidenced by the first batch of Neverwinter Nights cds, which didn't even come with a jewel case.

 

If anything, copy protection serves only as an annoyance to real customers who paid for the product. The fact that there is no game or software in the market with copy protection that has ever been left uncracked should serve as a message to the industry about the futility of copy protection.

 

Do any of you remember the copy-protection mechanism that was easily bypassed by pressing the shift key?

 

Word.

[Gromnir]

Thank you! It looks much cleaner now and people can address the actual subject in discussion instead of engaging in unwitty, infantile arguments.

really?

 

"Can you be any more clueless?"

 

maybe you should read fion's post a little more closely.

 

"If the courts listened to your suggestions the already-congested prisons will be clogged with people who download games and music. I really don't think that their offences are any way comparable to a rapist who brutalizes women, child molesterers, carjackers, bank robbers, street thugs and murderers. If such a law goes through, not only would it elevate software piracy to the level of hard crime, but degrade real hard crimes to being nothing more than minor fusses. "

 

is funny 'cause you got backwards. most of the punishments for rapists and murderers is ineffective as a deterrents 'cause those crimes is committed by folks who isn't really thinking 'bout consequences when they contemplate their crime. for instance, it has been shown time and again that the death penalty laws do not deter would-be murderers. reason cited is that murder is a crime of passion

[Exitium]

Wealthy people don't steal bread, Gromnir. It is the poor who suffer from these laws and I would ask whether you want to live in Sudan.

 

edit: Oh I'm sure you could argue that some wealthy people do steal bread but they probably do it for some psychological rush. Still, why penalize the poor to serve as a deterrent to a few rich psychopaths?

[Drakron]

Well Grommir in some countries games are really expensive ... some cost half a salary.

 

Nobody needs games to live but the back market is already set in place and its consider "normal" to get it there.

 

Take this as a example, a Game Cube costs 99 euros but Game Cube games cost around 65 euros so justing buying two CG games costs more that a GC.

 

Look at the music market, piracy gone up since labels to "cover costs due to piracy" raise prices with is BS, when file sharing programs became common music got a boost in sales since price was decent and what music industry did?

 

They raised prices to get more money and so sales drop and what they blamed?

 

File sharing programs.

 

a computer game is entertaiment at a relative afordable price but that is not the reality in some parts of the world and so they turn to what is a afordable, black market.

 

And another thing, most people download stuff because there is no demo and games today are tend to be short and forgetable, even 45 euros is a sizable investiment for first world countries and people either take "word on the street" or simply find a way to try the game and so "piracy" but if they like it they will buy it ... of course industry wants for us to consume, the idea of making quality games gone down the drain a long time ago with the major publishers.

[Gromnir]

that is our point. poor people steal bread. threaten to chop off the hand of a poor person who pretty much has nothing left to lose? is not the impoverished living in the shanty towns of calcutta who is making piracy laws and measures necessary, is it?

 

HA! Good Fun!