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Ranger and Paladin


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63 replies to this topic

#1
romeo_longsword

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My first DnD experience is Baldur’s Gate, where they used a 2E set of rules. Paladin and Ranger used to share the same experience chat, I used to question this long ago and still question this today. Paladin was very powerful (at least in BG) while Ranger did not have much special ability.

I did remember that I played a Ranger through BG and had the best time out of the 100+ times I played through the game, but that was because of other factors rather than the advantages of the Ranger class.

Why did the Rangers share the same HIGH experience chat with the Paladin back in the 2E? What does Ranger has that’s was rated as great as the Paladin?

When they changed it to 3E, the difference was quite large, where Ranger IMO, is quite crap in 3E, while Paladin continues to be a solid battle class.

Now looking at the 3.5E, the Ranger is now even further away from the Paladin connection. The saves of a Ranger now advanced in reflex, where in 3E it used to be Front saves, just like fighter and Paladin. I really quite enjoy the 3.5 version of the Ranger class, it portrays the class quite well, but this does make me think, why did the Ranger share the same experience chat back in 2E?

#2
Phosphor

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Moved since this has nothing to do with NWN2.

#3
Llyranor

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Moved since this has nothing to do with NWN2.

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This has EVERYTHING to do with NWN2!

#4
romeo_longsword

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I am actually a little suprised that why this thread is moved, I dont mean to question our lovely Phosphor's decision on his power and duty, but, but I do actually, why is this moved?

Edit: Actually may be its because its about 2E.

#5
nightcleaver

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What do you mean by "chat"? Is that some sort of term for experience cap? I seem to recall that certain classes advanced in level faster than others...

Otherwise, I don't know. If they had animal companions way back when, that would explain it, but it didn't. They had the sneak skill, and could go the archery path for bonuses over archer/fighters even, and stuff, and were decently effective as either ranged or frontline fighters. I remember that my 300 times re-rolled stats made my ranger pretty awesome, but other than that...

#6
Ewen Brown

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i suspect that is intended to be chart

in short because of the sneak and spellcasting

if i have to give the long answer i'll need to do some searching for links i'm not sure exist anymore, it has to do with class balance

#7
romeo_longsword

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... I remember that my 300 times re-rolled stats made my ranger pretty awesome, but other than that...

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LOL! I admit I did the same for few of my characters :ph34r:

Yes, Ewen Brown was right, I ment to say Chart.

Back in the 2E days, Ranger and Pally require more experience to advance in levels than other classes.

In comparing with a Ranger in BG and a Pally in BG, Ranger its quite sucky, I wounder if Ranger has somthing special in 2E PnP back then?

#8
mkreku

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They changed that Paladins need more experience per level than other classes? I remember playing a Paladin in Death Knights of Krynn and I thought it was sooo awesome having to collect 2-2.5 times more xp per level than (for example) a thief! It really made me work hard to advance my character and when he finally got his levels it really paid off (especially in that game)..

#9
Traceroute

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2nd Ed. had different experience tables for some classes.
3.0 standardized experience across the board for all classes.

The Paladin and the Ranger are basically the Warrior caste of their respective clergies - Clerics in the case of the Paladin, and Druids in the case of Rangers. Their abilities are derived from that.

Personally, I think the Ranger is one of the most versatile classes in the game. You have more versatile combat, lots of bonus feats, a LOT of skill points (especially in 3.5), etc. A Ranger may be more useful in PnP than in a CRPG though.

Rangers have always had animal companions, if they chose to use the Animal Friendship spell. That's been slightly modified in 3.5e by changing the spell to a class benefit of Rangers & Druids.

I'll be putting an article up in a couple weeks on NWN2News.net with more specifics about the differences of Rangers in 3.5e.

#10
romeo_longsword

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2nd Ed. had different experience tables for some classes.
3.0 standardized experience across the board for all classes.

The Paladin and the Ranger are basically the Warrior caste of their respective clergies - Clerics in the case of the Paladin, and Druids in the case of Rangers.  Their abilities are derived from that.

Personally, I think the Ranger is one of the most versatile classes in the game.  You have more versatile combat, lots of bonus feats, a LOT of skill points (especially in 3.5), etc.  A Ranger may be more useful in PnP than in a CRPG though.

Rangers have always had animal companions, if they chose to use the Animal Friendship spell.  That's been slightly modified in 3.5e by changing the spell to a class benefit of Rangers & Druids.

I'll be putting an article up in a couple weeks on NWN2News.net with more specifics about the differences of Rangers in 3.5e.

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I have only experienced DnD throug CRPG, would you tell us more about why you think that Ranger is one of the most verstile classes in PnP? ;)

#11
EnderAndrew

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Well, in third edition everyone has the same experience chart. However, a straight comparison of a Paladin and a Ranger will show that a Paladin is still a more powerful class.

#12
Traceroute

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I have only experienced DnD throug CRPG, would you tell us more about why you think that Ranger is one of the most verstile classes in PnP? :(

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Well, that's what I've been working on :D I'll make sure there's a post when the article is up.

Well, in third edition everyone has the same experience chart. However, a straight comparison of a Paladin and a Ranger will show that a Paladin is still a more powerful class.

I'd love to hear more details about that. But bear in mind I said Rangers are more versatile, not more powerful. The Paladin is (basically) a fusion of the Cleric and Fighter - Both relatively combat-oriented classes. The Ranger is a fusion of the Fighter and Druid; more of a scout, but generally better in combat than a Rogue.

It's a tank vs. a Humvee - It depends on the application.

#13
EnderAndrew

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Paladins have better saves because they add their CHA to their saves. I did a chart on this, but I'm not going to bother right now.
Paladins can heal, and have a much better spell selection. Never underestimate the ability to heal in combat. Not dieing is vastly more important than trying to kill someone else.
Paladins can wear heavy armor. A higher armor class is pretty nice.
Most of the Paladin abilities can be used fairly universally. A Ranger's abilities require that you be in a certain environment.
Smite comes into play more often since you run into tons of evil creatures naturally in most settings. Rangers only run into favored enemies when the DM decides you do.
I've never seen a DM really do anything to cater to the Track ability.
The Paladin Mount is far superior to the weakened companion.
Paladins get a full D10 hitdie. Ranger's are the only figter BAB class who gets less than a D10, including all the classes in Warrior supplements.

#14
Llyranor

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Paladins also get an impressive 2 skill pts / lvl, compared to the ranger's measly 6.

#15
EnderAndrew

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Compare those 4 skill points to the whopping disadvantages. Then try balancing them again.

#16
romeo_longsword

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I am more concern in how the two classes will be interpreted in a CRPG, where skill in climbing, swimming and jumping might not be so important (although I certainly hope NWN2 will overcome that).

If NWN2 will have mount, and if what I hear about a Pally can get a Dragon as a Mount at level 20 is correct, in comparing with a Ranger who would get a flipping Owl at 20, than Pally is almost overpowered. I certainly don’t see the connection on why Pally and Ranger shared the same experience chart back in the 2E days.

#17
Ewen Brown

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well, i think i said it was a balance thing

now that i think about it, iirc it is due to the ranger's stealth ability

#18
Darque

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Well, in third edition everyone has the same experience chart.  However, a straight comparison of a Paladin and a Ranger will show that a Paladin is still a more powerful class.

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If you're a numbercrunching powermunchkin :devil:

#19
romeo_longsword

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Well, in third edition everyone has the same experience chart.  However, a straight comparison of a Paladin and a Ranger will show that a Paladin is still a more powerful class.

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If you're a numbercrunching powermunchkin :devil:

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Heh.

Personally, being aware that a Paldin is more powerful than a Ranger in gernal combat is not and should not be seen as an idea of powergaming.

In the tradition of CRPG culture, hack and slash asspect is a very strong core of the game, therefore, it is natual that if EnderWiggin compare the two classes in a striaght forward view like such.

From my personal experience, when I play online, servers that say they are "hardcore" RP, filled with many roleplaying nazie, whome are very oftern calling others "powergamer", I found that they are the one who are the powergamers themselves. Please see the thread in my sign.

#20
Darque

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If you're a "roleplayer" they're about equal.

If you're a "rollplayer", yes the Paladin is better.




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