Valve have either shot themselves in the foot with the whole Steam thing, or they've ushered in a new age of unweildy and restrictive gaming. One of the things I liked about Half-Life was that you didnt need a CD to run it and it loaded fast, something which benefitted the online community immeasurably. They even took out the loading screens. HL2 really takes too long to load.

People forget how old Half Life is. When it first came out, it really pushed the envelope of technology. The original Half Life engine loads fast on most machines, but it's a six year old game.

Steam works perfectly for me. Only problem I have had was with the SDK. When they released their new update for it they changed the directory system, so I had to move some folders and files around to get everything to compile correctly. Other than that it's been golden. I like the updates, they save me some hassle. Registering it took about an hour, but I did try and do it at 10 AM on the day it was out, so I forgive them for that. I like it. I like how everything is intregrated into one client. I would buy other products through Steam without hesitation.

 

Just out of curiosity and not as an insult to anyone, but does anyone have any kind of concrete number on how many people have legitimate problems with Steam? By this I mean problems that are definitely Steam's fault and not something that could be fixed on the user's machine or connection. I have absolutely no intention of trying to say anyone in this thread is guilty of this as I have no prior knowledge of what happened to them, but I've read a lot of the threads on the Steam forums and most of the 'problems' are client-side and not Steam's fault. Stuff like dialup taking forever and other user related things. There are minor mistakes that seem to crop up, and I'm definitely not saying Steam/HL2 is perfect or without bugs and glitches, but...I've personally seen two people's machines that were having Steam problems(i.e. Steam not loading right, system crashes, weird memory issues, etc) and both of them turned out to be because they had not taken very good care of their systems. Lots of spyware and in one case viruses along with weird graphic driver versions. I was able to get Steam working perfectly on both of their machines by resolving these issues. In the case of dialup, well...I don't know what people expect with dialup. It's slow. Of course the updates are gonna take a long time to download. Just turn off auto-updates. Then all you will have to worry about is Steam updates. *shrugs*

 

I suppose the counterargument to what I have been saying is that your machine shouldn't have to be well-taken care of in order to run the game, and that other games don't care if you have problems with your machine. Another counterargument is that it automates everything so you are 'forced' to download updates for all the games and this is bad for people on dialup. But that can be turned off, so if you have dialup just turn auto-updates off! And the CD checks for retail and offline mode bugs have been fixed(according to the patch readmes, at least). I take good care of my machine and HL2 runs perfectly. I'm just wondering how many of the problems could be taken care of simply by making sure your machine is in great condition and optimized before trying to play.

 

Once again(because I know that despite my overall calm tone and saying that I didn't mean this as an insult someone is gonna take it personally), I am not saying this about anyone in this thread. For all I know everyone who has ever had a Steam problem had an immaculately clean machine and it's all Steam's fault. I'm just going by what I have seen. Steam seems to work on most people's machines in my experiences, and all of the problems I have personally seen have been user issues. Is Steam perfect? Of course not. Is it as bad as some people try to make it out? I don't think so, based on my experiences.

I never see you post on these forums. You should come around more often. Most of the time, you're the voice of reason over at The Fall's forums.

You know that? I think I will. TF's forums have died off on the english side, they won't pick up until the english version is announced. I check these forums daily, but I only post when something really gets me interested. I should make more of an effort here. <_<

I lurk there because I'm active on too many forums.

I suppose the counterargument to what I have been saying is that your machine shouldn't have to be well-taken care of in order to run the game, and that other games don't care if you have problems with your machine. Another counterargument is that it automates everything so you are 'forced' to download updates for all the games and this is bad for people on dialup. But that can be turned off, so if you have dialup just turn auto-updates off! And the CD checks for retail and offline mode bugs have been fixed(according to the patch readmes, at least). I take good care of my machine and HL2 runs perfectly. I'm just wondering how many of the problems could be taken care of simply by making sure your machine is in great condition and optimized before trying to play.

Cool! You just made my points for me.

 

Now, seriously. I haven't had serious/stopping problems with Steam. I just don't like to be forced to use it *after* having paid my $50 for it, just like any other game. I don't like Steam popping up and complaining that I don't have a connection to the Internet as soon as I reboot my computer. I really, really hate to be forced to have an Internet connection to play an offline game. It's preposterous, really.

 

And the reason behind all this is...? Greed. It all comes down to it. Greed on Gabe Newell's part, his desire to screw VU after all that lawsuit business, and his paranoia after Valve's intranet was hacked are what drove them to develop and implement Steam.

I automatically have a tendency to hate anything that is designed upon greed. That's probably not a very rational argument, but I'm not always very rational.

 

You know that? I think I will. TF's forums have died off on the english side, they won't pick up until the english version is announced. I check these forums daily, but I only post when something really gets me interested. I should make more of an effort here.  <_<

Yeah, you sounded familiar. You are a moderator there aren't you? I used to skim those boards for news but now that the game is finally out I'm not that interested anymore.

213374U <--- *cry*

213374U <--- *cry*

Azazis <--- *troll*

Oh, quit trying to tell everyone who disagrees with you that they're a troll. Just because you think what you write is clever doesn't mean that the majority of folks agree. In fact, the majority of the folks on this board don't write anything, so how would we know?

 

On the other hand, I dislike Steam on principle. I have my doubts that it hurts the pirates nearly as much as it inconveniences me, the legitimate customer. Furthermore, piracy still seems to flourish. Now, I suppose that it might end up taking a dent out piracy. I hope it does. ...But I don't like it now and I'm starting to wonder what will happen in the future. The bottom line, however, is that the software companies should be careful before they assume that they can continue to encroach upon the privacy of the legitimate consumer. You never know what will happen when a great mass of folks feel abused. Right now, I doubt that's the case. For example, I'm willing to put up with steam... for now.

 

Let's just see how far they decide to push this business. If it gets bad enough that the legislators meddle with it, then it will be a complete mess for everyone.

Cool! You just made my points for me. 

 

Now, seriously. I haven't had serious/stopping problems with Steam. I just don't like to be forced to use it *after* having paid my $50 for it, just like any other game. I don't like Steam popping up and complaining that I don't have a connection to the Internet as soon as I reboot my computer. I really, really hate to be forced to have an Internet connection to play an offline game. It's preposterous, really.

 

Well, my answer to that one is that the offline problem has been fixed as far as I know. It doesn't bug you anymore and it lets you play offline indefinitely. From what I've read on the Steam forums, that particular issue seems to have been fixed. I can't argue about being forced to do it in the first place, though, since you make a completely valid point. I'll also readily admit that I don't play in offline mode so I can't say for sure if the fix actually works, so I'll just let that one lie and concede the point.

 

One thing I can argue: You can remove Steam from your system startup. I did that immediately and it never popped up without direct action on my part. You can also turn game updates off so you don't have to automatically download patches when they come out.

 

And the reason behind all this is...? Greed. It all comes down to it. Greed on Gabe Newell's part, his desire to screw VU after all that lawsuit business, and his paranoia after Valve's intranet was hacked are what drove them to develop and implement Steam.

I automatically have a tendency to hate anything that is designed upon greed. That's probably not a very rational argument, but I'm not always very rational.

 

On the greed point: Um...yep. I can't really argue that. But I don't see how this is any different than any other game. Do you think Carmack doesn't want to make assloads of money? Everyone that makes a game wants to make a critically acclaimed blockbuster. For me I view HL2 as a fantastic game, so I don't hold it against Valve or Newell for wanting to make money. It's their job, it's undestandable to me. On the second point: Wait, I thought Steam was in development before the hacking thing? Wasn't the hacking incident in late August/early september? And wasn't the game supposed to be released in September? I don't profess to being an expert on the history of Valve, but I always thought Steam was something that was out even before HL2 was supposed to be out and used for CS and stuff like that. I looked back at old news sources..Steam was out way before the hacking incident, unless I totally misread the news articles.

 

I'm not trying to be a smartass or convince people to love Steam or anything. I just think it is one of those things people are overreacting about. It's not as bad as everyone makes it out to be. If you just don't like the idea of it, then more power to you. That's a completely valid point that I won't argue. But the general hostility towards Steam baffles me sometimes and drives me to post. :D

 

Yeah, you sounded familiar. You are a moderator there aren't you? I used to skim those boards for news but now that the game is finally out I'm not that interested anymore.

 

Yep, I mod over there. Although there's not much to moderate at the moment. It'll pick up once the english release is announced. I'm not as excited about the game as I used to be, but I have talked to German players who have it and they say it's at least worth a purchase for people who like post-apoc stuff. At least most of the bugs will be worked out for the english release. *shrugs*

 

EDIT: Eeep, posted while I was writing my response. In response to Eldar: good point. If things like Steam start popping up and encroach more and more on the privacy of their users it will be a bad thing. I just don't think that's something I need to worry about. I might be too laid back for my own good here, but until I start seeing concrete problems related to privacy associated with Steam I just can't get worried about it. Maybe that's just me, though.

Oh, quit trying to tell everyone who disagrees with you that they're a troll.  Just because you think what you write is clever doesn't mean that the majority of folks agree.  In fact, the majority of the folks on this board don't write anything, so how would we know?

So, you think that accusing people of piracy without proof and posting thrash like 'Guy x <--- cry' is actually useful for anything outside provoking? Because that's precisely what a troll does.

It's pretty hypocritical of you to say that because I never call people a troll when they are honest about their opinions, whatever they may be.

 

You have a problem with that, well, you can take full advantage of the 'ignore' feature of the forum.

 

A pity you screwed an otherwise good post by adding that part.

Now c'mon people, for god sake stop arguing. Before you know it there is a flamewar/discussion with words like "hypocrisy", "arrogance" and "ignorance" and all. That freaks me out... :ph34r:

Now c'mon people, for god sake stop arguing. Before you know it there is a flamewar/discussion with words like "hypocrisy", "arrogance" and "ignorance" and all. That freaks me out... :ph34r:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well...213374U and I are having a nice civil discussion so far. But the day is still young. :D

Now c'mon people, for god sake stop arguing. Before you know it there is a flamewar/discussion with words like "hypocrisy", "arrogance" and "ignorance" and all. That freaks me out... :ph34r:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well...213374U and I are having a nice civil discussion so far. But the day is still young. :D

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, actually I meant 213374U and Eldar. You two are doing great, keep up the good work

One thing I can argue: You can remove Steam from your system startup. I did that immediately and it never popped up without direct action on my part. You can also turn game updates off so you don't have to automatically download patches when they come out.

Meh. I didn't really bother trying to. I don't remember you were given the option during the setup program, though.

Laziness on my part, I suppose.

 

Do you think Carmack doesn't want to make assloads of money? Everyone that makes a game wants to make a critically acclaimed blockbuster. For me I view HL2 as a fantastic game, so I don't hold it against Valve or Newell for wanting to make money.

Yeah, it's understandable they want to make money. What I didn't like about it is that their intention was to remove the publisher from the equation, without decreasing the product price, thus making a lot more money at the expense of the user. That's pretty greedier than wanting to sell the most games, IMO.

 

Wasn't the hacking incident in late August/early september? And wasn't the game supposed to be released in September? I don't profess to being an expert on the history of Valve, but I always thought Steam was something that was out even before HL2 was supposed to be out and used for CS and stuff like that. I looked back at old news sources..Steam was out way before the hacking incident, unless I totally misread the news articles. 

Perhaps. To be honest I really don't know but I think at first Steam was only a means through which Valve products would be distributed. I'm not sure all the authentication garbage for standard retail products was part of the original idea. Again, that's just pure speculation, I don't know for a fact.

Yeah, it's understandable they want to make money. What I didn't like about it is that their intention was to remove the publisher from the equation, without decreasing the product price, thus making a lot more money at the expense of the user. That's pretty greedier than wanting to sell the most games, IMO.

 

I'll sort of concede that point. I did think at the time that by cutting out the middleman of the publisher the game should be cheaper, and was a little surprised when it wasn't. On the other hand I really can't blame a developer for wanting to get all of the profits out of their title. I mean, if I can find a reliable way to get my product to the consumer without having to pay someone else to do it or let them have a share of the profits I'll wholeheartedly go for it. It goes back to my earlier point: I can't blame Valve for wanting to get as much money out of the product they have put their hearts and souls into for the last 5(or however many it has been) years. It just doesn't bother me, maybe because I am so close to entering the job market myself and I am starting to get worried about my money situation after exiting college. :D

The question here is when will Valve make a game I can get into. They need to make a CRPG.

stuff

You call all sorts of folks trolls.  I dunno, but it seems like you bandy the T word around an aweful lot.  Are you sure the troll you smell might not be yourself?  I await with relish your response.  After all, you've already established that I'm a troll, an accusation I've never had leveled at me from anyone else.  :Eldar'sgrinningicon:  I think it hurts your argument to throw out words like Troll at everyone in the thread.  Even if he's trying to insult you, that doesn't make him a troll.  A troll posts only to incite argument, something that doesn't seem likely for folks in this thread.  We're all taking serious positions and trying to defend them in one way or another.

Yeah, I yell 'troll!' at anyone whose arguments I can't counter. Plenty of examples everywhere. Care to post one?

 

I didn't call you a troll, IIRC. Not directly at least. I just implied you might have been trolling with some statements which I don't remember and can't be bothered to look up now. But man, if this is a personal grudge with me because I called you a troll, it's about damn time you get over it.

 

I agree with you concerning the on topic issue.  Still, rather than ruin my post by addressing your "troll" condition, I believe you ruin your argument by throwing out the word troll when you don't have an adequate response for what someone says.  I don't think someone calling a legitimate customer a pirate constitutes a troll.  I believe it constitutes a jackass.

There are three possible courses of action one can take when facing a troll. Flame, ignore, or call them a troll. I could have flamed him, and I could have ignored him, perhaps that would have been the most intelligent thing to do, but still, that doesn't change the fact that his posts' only aim were to draw flak. Flamebaits are the handiwork of trolls. He might be a jackass as well, I don't know nor do I care, but what I do know is that he is a troll.

 

As far as the flamewar goes, I can honestly claim that I have not even a smidge of animosity.  After all, I'm a troll and trolls are remarkably thick skinned.  And green.

Again, I hadn't noticed we were having a flamewar. That's not my style of flaming, anyway. If you consider telling people the truth without second intentions constitutes flaming, then it's your problem.

 

You say you are pretty thick-skinned yet you jumped at the chance to tell me I'm always calling people a troll, even though it's a blatant lie.

Yeah, you have proven you can keep your cool under really heavy fire, even though this whole business had nothing to do with you, and despite your previous apparent lack of interest in the Steam discussion. Not to mention that first you set me straight and then you proceeded to state your opinion on the topic at hand. Interesting set of priorities you got there.

Yeah, it's understandable they want to make money. What I didn't like about it is that their intention was to remove the publisher from the equation, without decreasing the product price, thus making a lot more money at the expense of the user. That's pretty greedier than wanting to sell the most games, IMO.

Wrong. Vivendi is still the publisher of the game. Now, imagine if Steam sold HL2 at a cheaper price. Say, 10 bucks cheaper. Given that Vivendi gets a smaller cut of the profits from Steam vs retail sales, which version do you think gamers with fast net access will buy, and how do you think Vivendi would react? At this point in time, Valve CAN'T sell the game cheaper, or it'd have an already angry publisher even angrier.

 

It's not THE step forward, it's A step forward. Valve is a wealthy company, Vivendi didn't provide all of the 40 million bucks to finance the game. That being said, Valve STILL needs a publisher at this point, and the publisher wouldn't allow the Digital Distribution version of the game to be sold at a cheaper price or it'd affect the retail sales. *A* step forward. The world is still not rid of publishers just yet at this point in time.

Yeah, it's understandable they want to make money. What I didn't like about it is that their intention was to remove the publisher from the equation, without decreasing the product price, thus making a lot more money at the expense of the user. That's pretty greedier than wanting to sell the most games, IMO.

Wrong. Vivendi is still the publisher of the game. Now, imagine if Steam sold HL2 at a cheaper price. Say, 10 bucks cheaper. Given that Vivendi gets a smaller cut of the profits from Steam vs retail sales, which version do you think gamers with fast net access will buy, and how do you think Vivendi would react? At this point in time, Valve CAN'T sell the game cheaper, or it'd have an already angry publisher even angrier.

Do you actually know they can't or is that just speculation? I mean, is there something that legally prevents them from selling cheaper? Surely you got those conclusions from somewhere. If you provided a link that would add strength to your claims.

 

the publisher wouldn't allow the Digital Distribution version of the game to be sold at a cheaper price or it'd affect the retail sales.

Now that *is* speculation. I for one would still buy the retail version if only because I would not depend on Steam and I would have the original CD and box (not manual, though...).

You need a bigger six shooter, my multi-numbered friend. I'm afraid I made you angry. Well, you sure sound a bit angry. Of course, you sounded a bit angry before I came into this thread. After all, you obviously weren't addressing me when you wrote, "f you had the slightest idea what you are talking about you dumbass, you would know that it is actually *easier* to play a cracked/pirated copy of HL2 than a original one, if only because you don't depend on Steam to validate/decript/activate your game." I mean, my post sure sounded like I "...jumped at the chance to tell me I'm always calling people a troll, even though it's a blatant lie." Sure, use it in a quote. I like things like that. It feeds my overweening arrogance. Nonetheless, what I thought I did was tell you what seemed apparent to me. After all, you "implied" I was a troll in the same thread where you blatantly called Vol a troll. Then, hey, I was reading this thread on the same day I responded to several threads, and here you are, calling yet some other fellow a troll. I shake my head in wonder. I wasn't trying to bait you, I was merely observing a truth as I saw it. All I can say is, "f you consider telling people the truth without second intentions constitutes flaming, then it's your problem." All of this is a diversion from the real topic. Wait, I guess I can't make a comment in a thread without it being some sort of "personal grudge." I mean, we can't both post in the same thread? ...Or I can post, but I can't respond to anything you say? ...Or I can respond, but it can't be to disagree, otherwise I'm a troll or a dumbass or some such? ...And you think I'm angry? If I'm a troll, then you've got a huge target painted on your forehead. I can count on you, oh numbered one. Any slight regard and you're there to get the best of me! Well, consider me bested. Feel free to use that as a quote, I love stuff like that. Something tells me you're a "last word" sort of fellow. You probably like the bragging rights. Tell you what, you give me some sort of flippant and angry (but not really, you only sound that way) response and I'll let you get the last word. I don't, however, promise that I won't respond to the thread in general. After all, this is an important issue for gamers.

 

Here's a serious response to get away from the fluff being thrown around regarding this whole issue: trolls are folks who don't really have any real opinion regarding the discussion. Trolls make comments solely to create arguments. Message board cowboys, and I'm gladdened that you took the first step of admitting you have a problem, feel the need to resort to obnoxious comments at the slightest provocation. Now, the folks in this thread seem to have a position. The reason that's a problem is simple, there are a good number of Valve fans who see an attack on Steam as an attack on HL2. We could only wish that they were trolls, but we aren't so lucky. The Valve fans truly believe in what they say. These people sometimes respond angrily to folks who bad-mouth Steam or HL2. More useful than being childish and giving a one sentence, meaningless response is to explain that Steam is flawed whether or not the game is good. I, for one, really enjoyed HL2. It's one of the best games I've ever played. ...But that doesn't mean the Steam idea is good. You can like the game and hate Steam. As consumers, we should recognize that a lot of folks will like the game but that they should voice their concerns about Steam. I don't think the issue has reached critical mass, so I suspect Valve will continue to use Steam. Nevertheless, we have a voice and we should use it.

 

If you hate both HL2 and Steam, then I suppose it makes a lot of sense to rail against both. On the other hand, some folks will see both HL2 and Steam as an improvement on the whole issue of software purchases. I hope that we can convince them that, no matter how good HL2 is, Steam has some far reaching implications that might not be the best thing for the industry as a whole.

 

Finally, Steam might be a net benefit for the industry. We just don't know. I don't like it, but that doesn't mean I'm not wrong. Good or bad, it's here for the time being and so we might as well hope for the best.

You sure could use some punctuation.

 

I'm almost impressed by your uncanny twisting of well... almost everything. I'm not going to defuse your claims one by one because it's not worth it and because your paragraph-less post makes it next to impossible.

 

I find it amusing though, that in almost every one of your replies to me, you assume I'm angry. I said it before, and I will say it again: you can't anger me, no matter how hard you try. You are just not important enough. Don't assume that just because I call someone a dumbass I'm angry.

 

You on the other hand seem to be rather bothered by whatever I say, because if you didn't care, you would ignore me. I don't recall that guy asking you for help so you really had no business telling me who and who is not a troll. But you couldn't resist a chance to have a go at me.

 

Keep claiming that you don't care and that I'm a last word type of guy, but the truth of the matter is, that you are just like me.

 

So grow up, and don't take these boards so seriously.

To lighten the "let's all bash each other" mood, the only complaints I have about half life two is:

 

 

The horribly long "get to Black Mesa East" part in the very start

and

Ravenholm

which is probably one of the scarriest places in any game I've encountered. Graphics this good plus

swinging corpses, headcrab zombies, torsos on sawblades with their legs on the floor

is not my idea of a good time.

 

Steam hasn't given me any problems. Do you want it to?