Why's Forgotten Realms more popular than Greyhawk?

[Darque]

and only one reply for you to whine about it

 

The setting is dull, both of them are, with Greyhawk being the lesser in dullness.

 

That's my opinion, I'm entitled to it and I'm sticking to it.

[EnderAndrew]

She didn't trash it without reason.

 

She gave the very reason that she prefers Dark Sun and Planescape.

 

FR and GH are dull. Not only is she entitled to that opinion, I happen to agree with her.

[Dalmir "The Dark"]

I like to fill my worlds with my NPCs.  Even when I played DragonLance way back in junior high, we always played on different continents.  Why have players who know the source material as well as you, if not better?

 

I do this as well. I have gone into this a little bit on the pages of another topic but since I moved around a lot as a kid I would lose my entire gaming group often and sometimes use their PCs as NPCs in my ever growing world. Trust me when I say that my Greyhawk is *my* Greyhawk.

 

What if players argue that you're not representing an existing city well enough?  If you create your own settings, then you are the auteur.

 

My players over the years have been very involved and since we use Greyhawk as a home base, many of the details are left to our imagination. One of my player's PCs ended up becoming the new baron of Dyvers - he drew a map of the entire city. I not only allow this type of participation, I also encourage it. My campaign has always been a creative collection of ideas from all involved.

 

I may pull rules from certain settings, but I don't take much source material from them.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Same here - When the Bloodstone modules came out for the Forgotten Realms setting, I found a way to lure to character's to the Realms to play through the modules, but when they finished off Orcus in the last one, they returned to Greyhawk. Enderwiggin, I love the Greyhawk setting because that is where all my childhood memories of D&D (actually 1st Edition AD&D at the time) come from. But in all actuality, it probably could have been any setting.

 

Gygax made Greyhawk so that each group of players could customize it to be their *own* world. That is why there are intentional gaps in source material. I like it that way.

[EnderAndrew]

Gygax made Greyhawk so that each group of players could customize it to be their *own* world.  That is why there are intentional gaps in source material.  I like it that way.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sourcebooks should be springboards for your personal stories, not gospel to be adhered to.

[Darque]

Gygax made Greyhawk so that each group of players could customize it to be their *own* world.  That is why there are intentional gaps in source material.  I like it that way.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sourcebooks should be springboards for your personal stories, not gospel to be adhered to.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I thought that was a given

[Volourn]

Darque WINS! (w00t)

 

 

 

 

 

........ my !

[Drakron]

Sourcebooks should be springboards for your personal stories, not gospel to be adhered to.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yes and no.

 

There is a thing called consistence and source books sould be the official line of future world development, not contradict each other (or even contradict thenselves) since people who pick then up is more because they rather not go much into details (lack of time) and in some cases are even part of the official compains (the "living" campain events) were they dont have even a chance to deviate from the books.

 

That is a (big) issue with FR (I do not wish to go into much detail but let me put this way, as it stands all FR novels are official events and god knows that som autors appear to be writting for Middle Earth) as GH ... well GH was pretty much left alone after the "Living Greyhawk" book.

[romeo_longsword]

Darque WINS! (w00t)

 

 

 

 

 

........ my  !

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Heh.

 

Putting winning and losing aside in an argument based on personal preferences, I think how NWN portrays FR making me thinking it

[Percival]

NWN OC would make everything look dull. Of course basing a setting on a computer game is a bad idea, since the devs place too much focus on munchkinism (l33t loot, leveling every minute, placing big bad liches and demons at every turn...). Blaming FR on poor RP by the players isnt such a good idea.

 

As for Planescape, the setting is fun, but I find it to be much better as a accessory to the rest of the settings, and not as a stand alone setting. Once again, you confuse a computer game with the setting itself. Of course if you played PS:T, you would have found out that there's alot more l33t loot and overpowered godlike chars in that game then in a FR game. Of course with such a poor combat system that PS:T had, and much less focus on it, people did not notice that.

 

And if you consider PS lacks overzealous paladins, think again. Mercykillers ring any bells? Of course they're not paladins per se, but they make up in their zeal.

 

 

Strangely, people like to trash FR because of strange notions of bias. Every other D&D setting can be described in the same negative way, if you put it through your own rose coloured glasses.

 

DL = overpowered munchkin fest where everyone has +3 magical items, with a godlike mage, even more popular and munchkinish then Drizzt

GH = too much details (really, has anyone checked out Greyhawk Gazetter, too much information, I caaaant be creative)

Eberron = poor attemt of bringing sci fi into high fantasy (really, warforged is the silliest idea ever)

Dark sun = silliest "post apocalyptic" implementation - halflings destroying everything, then shapeshift into humans and elves...

[Darque]

Or they like to trash it because they find it dull.

 

It just feels so... generic.

 

Of course I think I'll blame that on the novelizations that seem to have corrupted it.

[Drakron]

...

One of the reasons is that when I playing the game online, the elves players seems to be playing elves like human with a different appearance.

 

Playing a alien race is never easy, it really depends on the race, the setting and the background.

 

Besides I find it worst someone always playing a "Tolkien Elf" and that is as common as "Human Elf".

 

... Players tend to believe that, all Drow or evil players HAS to go around and be rude to people, or to kill another person meaninglessly.

 

Some people have no idea of how to play evil outside the "chaotic stupid" mentality, there is a reason why evil aligment characters are discouraged in the PnP game ...

 

And how some characters became so high in the level, the DM grants them god-dom. Your player character become god in a FR setting is such a common thing.

 

First its not, DMs that hand XP like candy are not good DMs and I always maintained world consistence, just because a party is 10th level does not mean the world level up as well, the wolves that were there at lv3 remain there at lv10, as I done things the higher characters go the harder is for gain significant XP with makes players go after bigger and more epic goals if they feel like it.

 

FR does have a lot of high level creatures so its easier to reach very high levels since they are present but that happens to all campains and its only there if the DM allows then to be there, despite having more high level creatures they still are dificult to find and not a random encounter.

 

As for becaming a god ... well its pretty hard in FR since there are very restrictive rules for it, its was easier in Planescape that was geared for that kind of play levels (after all its a setting were players can easy find balors areound the corner) but I can understand why people get that impression since FR have many mortals becaming gods.

 

Ohhhhh, that lovely Planescape, I only learnt it form the CRPG, PS:T, and from my interpretation, it has a slight urban, common feel to it. People talk to you realistically and so are their believes. No more silly Druid come over and shout at you because you killed a wolf that was attacking you, no more Zeal cult of Paladin come over to smite you because they "feel" that you are evil.

 

You are so wrong but then again PS:T just gives a small idea of the setting but you are righton one thing, you dont have to worry about the silly druid (even if that example is a complety and utterly example of someone who does not understand how to play a druid) since the wolves tend to be far stronger and more powerful and the "silly druid" god is around to smack people that are trashing their home and the Paladin ... let me put this way, a evil character in a Good aligned plane is not going to survive for much since the whole place is full of good aligned creatures (not to say the plane itself sets things against such characters) that WILL attack someone that is evil, one Paladin (again the example is of someone who cannot play a Paladin right) is the least of the worries if you happen to enter that Paladin god domain.

[romeo_longsword]

...

 

First its not, DMs that hand XP like candy are not good DMs and I always maintained world consistence, just because a party is 10th level does not mean the world level up as well, the wolves that were there at lv3 remain there at lv10, as I done things the higher characters go the harder is for gain significant XP with makes players go after bigger and more epic goals if they feel like it.

 

FR does have a lot of high level creatures so its easier to reach very high levels since they are present but that happens to all campains and its only there if the DM allows then to be there, despite having more high level creatures they still are dificult to find and not a random encounter.

 

As for becaming a god ... well its pretty hard in FR since there are very restrictive rules for it, its was easier in Planescape that was geared for that kind of play levels (after all its a setting were players can easy find balors areound the corner) but I can understand why people get that impression since FR have many mortals becaming gods.

 

When you say "its not", you must be reflecting your own personal experience which is fair enough. As a mainly CRPG player, I oftern desire to have a real PnP game where I can listern to story telling and acting out a character and so on, heh. So I like to visit the WoTc sites and the links to other fan sites from there, to get some idea of what the world is like and their stories. From my vists and viewing other characters stories, it does support my message about that many characters at high-epic levels were granted places as a god, or some godly power for the least, power that at least make them no longer mortal.

 

I am sure many share your view that, "oh, there are many rules againest it". But whatever the rules were, surely hundreds of people on WoTc posting about their characters stories about their characters became god or godlike, there must be ways to go around whatever rules you mean.

 

I am sure some would say thats unfair way to look at FR based on thouse guys on WoTc, but at the end of the day, there are rules, but it is the community thats running the culture. And in many ways CRPG contributes a lot in these cultures, which some PnP players would consider as degrading.

[Drakron]

First there are no rules over godhood, its not like there is a "step-by-step" instructions on how to do it.

 

Then there is a book that goes into the mechanics of divine powers but lacks the instructions for converting a player character into a deity and even deconstructing the gods stats in that book leads to a dead end since there is no actual method on why those gods have certain stats.

 

In Forgotten Realms all gods have to be aproved by Ao the overgod, in other settings there is no such limitations, it goes down to the DM going out of his way to allow it and I serious doubt any good DM is going to allow a character to became a god and allow such character to remain in play, its a way to retire a character but its not a common one.

 

As for CRPGs ... I never seen IWD series allowing the characters becaming gods in the end, the only game that hints to something like that is BG2:ToB expansion with is as based on FR as it is in DL (yes, THAT bad).

[romeo_longsword]

First there are no rules over godhood, its not like there is a "step-by-step" instructions on how to do it.

 

I see.

 

... As for becaming a god ... well its pretty hard in FR since there are very restrictive rules for it...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

For a none english speaker (native wise), the above line would suggest, from you, that there are rules to becoming god like although its very restrictive.

 

 

Then there is a book that goes into the mechanics of divine powers but lacks the instructions for converting a player character into a deity and even deconstructing the gods stats in that book leads to a dead end since there is no actual method on why those gods have certain stats.

 

In Forgotten Realms all gods have to be aproved by Ao the overgod, in other settings there is no such limitations, it goes down to the DM going out of his way to allow it and I serious doubt any good DM is going to allow a character to became a god and allow such character to remain in play, its a way to retire a character but its not a common one.

 

This seems to be of course, your personal doubt as well as expectation. As I have metioned just how many player characters become god-like, god, over at what I consider as a heavy DnD community such as WoTc.

 

As for CRPGs ... I never seen IWD series allowing the characters becaming gods in the end, the only game that hints to something like that is BG2:ToB expansion with is as based on FR as it is in DL (yes, THAT bad).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

No, I have not see too many CRPG giving you god-like status either.

[Ginthaeriel]

Here's what I would like:

A bunch of D&D players decide to create their own setting. The very first campaign, it's early in the setting, there are no gods, no religions, no real civilization. Survivalistic dark ages. This is really easy since all you really need to know are the climates, geography and races. The first characters the players roll will be extremely powerful- legends of old, true history makers. As they play, they each elaborate on different facets of the growth of civilization- as world rulers they can order their people to do certain things like invent technology, discover magic or fight wars, and that will carve the very sociopolitical and technological/magical levels. The players will then go and do totally insanely powerful things, and they ascend and become Gods and then you set up the whole theistic system of the setting. Each player will contribute what they think is a really cool setting into this setting, and as such the setting will be tailored to their preferences.

 

Then they create a SECOND batch of players, which are of average power, and play the game normally. No need to buy the FRCS, just the core rulebooks, and you get much more playtime and enjoyability from the fact that you feel like you're living in a world that you created. Best of all, it doesn't take much hassle- you create the very world as you play. At least, the first time around. The dungeon master doesn't have to spend weeks on end coming up with every facet of the world history- these things are just set up naturally AS the characters play- and that way there will be no argument about whether a certain event or certain war or whatever sounds stupid or unrealistic or what race sounds dumb, since the base of the world sprang from what actually happened during playtime.

 

Also, this way, the deities won't seem so distant and it will be easier to roleplay. Think about it- it's pretty hard to really get yourself into the mindset that you worship Boccob or Mystra. And this is probably where those anti-role playing Christian nuts get real leverage and real anger over. But wouldn't it be much more easy to relate to a deity that actually was... well... you? You've played in the very shoes of the God you worship, you know their desires and motivations, so the God doesn't seem like some unfeeling presence that gives you domain spells and are nothing but DM tools to keep you in line, it actually feels like a genuine deity that you can really understand.

 

Then again, if you worship an incarnation of yourself, you'll, ironically, probably turn into a satanist.

 

Actual, true LaVey-ist satanism isn't about worshipping the devil, but it's a philosophy that sees the self as the most important facet of one's existence in your personal universe, and that there is no actual supernatural forces- that religion is just a tool to turn individuals into mindless sheep and keep them from reaching their true potential and to give power to an elite few. This has nothing to do with morals, they say. The whole "satanist" motif is used out of irreverence to Christianity, the most powerful religion in the world, which the satanists oppose. If anything, they are more like sticking their tongue out at an organization whom they oppose ideologically, insteaad of any real desire to rip the spinal columns out of young boys and paint their blood in the shape of a pentagram.

 

What?

 

It's not like *I'm* a satanist or anything.

 

I actually find their ideologies a little bit egocentric and misguided, although I do respect where they are coming from.

 

But anyways. Back to the topic at hand.

[Drakron]

As I tried to explain there is a book dealing with deities but its aimed at "pantheon building" that anything else.

 

FR have its own deity book (that pretty much uses the other book rules) but because FR have a more active pantheon it have some unique rules over how things work diferently from the above book, some really give us a "WTF" moment.

 

You need to keep in mind that such books are DM books only, they have no use for players outside some feats, spells, classes and equipment.

 

In the deity book there is a mechanic to allow a character to became a proxy (I think that is the right name) but those are just the most powrful agents of the gods, problem with FR is that there are expecific rules that govern deities that make many things not possible.

 

In other settings its easier to became a god because there are no expecific setting rules about then and they have a more loose pantheon as in FR its overcrowed with deities (even after the clean up).

[Volourn]

Meh. All this talk of gods. I sure havn't seen any players become gods in all my biullions of years. Certainbly not in any campaign I played. i do know of one other campaign that allowed the players to become god; but that was a Munchkin DM.

 

Only fools allow players to become gods so often if at all.

[EnderAndrew]

I saw it happen, back in junior high.

 

But White Wolf's Vampire book has a neat little aside in it. When describing Vampire society, it says imagine a ruthless corporate ladder. Now imagine that those above you don't age or retire. Now imagine that those above you have the right, and perogative to kill you to stop you from climbing said ladder.

 

When your PC starts getting to munchkin levels, the gods themselves should oppose your claim to power.

[Rosbjerg]

Here's what I would like:

A bunch of D&D players decide to create their own setting. The very first campaign, it's early in the setting, there are no gods, no religions, no real civilization. Survivalistic dark ages. This is really easy since all you really need to know are the climates, geography and races. The first characters the players roll will be extremely powerful- legends of old, true history makers. As they play, they each elaborate on different facets of the growth of civilization- as world rulers they can order their people to do certain things like invent technology, discover magic or fight wars, and that will carve the very sociopolitical and technological/magical levels.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

hah .. funny .. Me and a couple of my dedicated role-playing friends actually did that! we are 6 people, and each was asigned a different aspect of the world (I handled geography and climate)

 

we created our completly own world, with cultures, languages and races .. and created 5 people in the 5 main cities of the 5 main cultures and races.. and then we try to rise to absolute power (or what ever we want) in our respective cities ..

although in our game there are no Gods (well people whorship them but they don't exist) and no magic (okay a little, but it's hard to explain), and we have been playing for months now, some have achieved ultimate power in their city and are expanding their borders, raising troops etc etc ..

slowly I expand the maps, as people explore, and those who handle cultures and races expand those as they are discovered .. it's a really interesting creative process to be a part of it! and very demanding!

[EnderAndrew]

I'd like to establish a culture that once was advanced, had computers, the works. Then a galactic electrical storm wipes away the entire culture since they stored everything on magnetic mediums.

 

Society dissolves into chaos and anarchy. All of the digital media in the world is replaced by Marx Brothers movies.

 

Technology is lost as an afterthought, and society adapts around the pun.

 

Imagine.

[Darque]