20 Levels

[Aegeri]

So what.  Does that mean that they should avoid making the best game that they can because it is not exactly the same system as the pen and paper game.  The system for KOTOR is "based" on the d20 system.  That doesn't mean that they shouldn't customize it so that it best suits the video game.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yes and putting in more than 20 levels would simply be POINTLESS. As it has been stated over and over again, there is NOTHING LEFT TO FIGHT after 20 levels in Starwars D20. If this was DnD, you could get away with it, because there is a large amount of monsters and similar over CR20 for characters to fight. This rarely occurs in D20 Starwars.

 

Except for pure munchkin purposes, there is no need to go above level 20 at all.

 

There IS a need to slow down the EXP system so you don't level as fast however, but that is a different issue.

[sandman1347]

This argument has become pointless. You clearly feel that keeping completely in line with the D20 system takes precedence and that the game should be forced to fit within those confines. I feel that the over all quality and enjoyability of the game comes first and that the system should be subject to change in order to acomodate that.

[alanschu]

Yes, it does.  If they can't or don't want to adhere to the rules system then they shouldn't use it at all.  Plain and simple.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

But they're not. They're just using a ruleset that is similar to the d20 ruleset, since there are differences.

 

 

Since they are not adhering to the d20 ruleset, I don't feel they need to be restricted to it (since they are not using it....just something similar).

[Stargate: 2000]

Yes, it does.  If they can't or don't want to adhere to the rules system then they shouldn't use it at all.  Plain and simple.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

But they're not. They're just using a ruleset that is similar to the d20 ruleset, since there are differences.

 

 

Since they are not adhering to the d20 ruleset, I don't feel they need to be restricted to it (since they are not using it....just something similar).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Even if they were going to use it as a base for the way the game works I still don't see why they should limit the game play since they have already said that the majority of the enemies you will face in the game will scale up according to your level. So with that being said it wouldn't matter if you were level 90 because the rancor around the corner will still be a bit of a challange to your character.

[alanschu]

Level limits are for 2 groups of devloeprs. One are those who wanted to focus on a more controlled power span and make it be qualityand the other being weak ass developers who suck at balancing and so shouldn't be making games.

 

KOTOR is the latter, and NWN was the former.

 

 

Also, this idea that having 30 levels will make the game easier is bollox. It's so full of crap. Then again, anyone who has played both HOTU and KOTOR know which one was ahrder and it was the one with higher levels. Go figure.

 

In conclusion, once again Hades, your logic sucks.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Didn't your logic just call Bioware a developer that wanted to focus on a more controlled power span AND a weak ass developer that sucks at balancing and shouldn't be making games?

 

[Judge Hades]

This argument has become pointless.  You clearly feel that keeping completely in line with the D20 system takes precedence and that the game should be forced to fit within those confines.  I feel that the over all quality and enjoyability of the game comes first and that the system should be subject to change in order to acomodate that.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

If they are going to make a game based onthe d20 SYstem then they need to use the d20 System. Plan and simple. If they want to make the game more "gun" and not adhere to the rules system then they can just not use it at all. KotOR, and by extension KotOR 2, would be better off not using the d20 SYstem of Star Wars. Sure the enjoyability is imporant, that is why developers shouldn't use PnP game systems in a computer game. Far too restricting.

[DSLuke]

Yes I also think that the D20 system has restricted the game in many ways and was reducing the level of enjoyment

 

I mean c'mon just look at how you shoot with blasters (on in ten shots hits the target) :angry:

[Judge Hades]

They shouldn't have use the rules system, but Bioware was lazy and didn't come up withone of their own. Also because of this laziness they didn't make the game adhere properly to the rules system they have chosen to use. Now Obsidian is just continuing the mistakes made by Bioware and compounding them with their own.

[DSLuke]

Cmon they do have to use something as a guideline. but I think they followed it to closely

[Andrew]

All electronic games based on the sundry incarnations of the d20 system have had to take liberties with the rules, some more than others. The "all or nothing" argument is facile; even the pencil and paper rules state that the game master has the ultimate discretion when it comes to making rules decisions.

 

Part and parcel with the licensing rights to use these settings (NWN2, Star Wars d20) is the understanding that the underlying rules will be at least recognizable to consumers. They are as much a part of the brand as the setting, and likely, consumers would be upset if they purchased a D&D title that didn't have the six stats, d20 combat rounds, etc.

 

Re. 20th level max in KOTOR: I liked the limit because it meant that there was enough room for customizing how your character's force powers would develop while allowing your Jedi to remain unique because you couldn't take everything. Given another ten levels, every Jedi would be essentially the same, which I think ruins the point. Also, the designers could only script so many events that would award experience for actions outside of combat. Having a limit allowed the designers to balance the flow of the game, so that players actually interested in role-playing could progress and not be penalized for not taking a heavy combat approach. What I didn't like was that you started as a different class whose level then limited how many Jedi levels your character could obtain. Given that the power of the Jedi classes seriously nerfed any of the regular classes, I thought this was a bit unfair. To the designers' credit, however, the game still remained pretty balanced.

 

As for KOTOR2, I'm all for the level 20 limit for game balance purposes, not necessarily because this is what the Star Wars d20 roolz sez. Given that the character starts as a Jedi, my only grievance from the previous game is addressed.

[alanschu]

Yes I also think that the D20 system has restricted the game in many ways and was reducing the level of enjoyment

 

I mean c'mon just look at how you shoot with blasters (on in ten shots hits the target) :angry:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Blasters follow the exact same mechanic as melee weapons.

 

Somehow the conception is that they miss way more, but what people do not realize is that Bioware added many shots to a single attack so it wouldn't look too silly. Of all the shots that happen during an attack, only ONE is the real shot. The rest is just decorations.

 

I think that this is a better alternative to the characters firing once every six seconds.

 

 

And to reiterate to Hades....the game does not use the d20 ruleset (as you like to point out so much). Just a system that is very similar. Hence they don't have to adhere to anything that the d20 says you have to (which from what I understand, is nothing anyways).

[Judge Hades]

Its based on d20 System, therefore it must adhere to the d20 System. Case closed.

[sandman1347]

Its based on d20 System, therefore it must adhere to the d20 System.  Case closed.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It's like talking to a brick wall.

[alanschu]

Its based on d20 System, therefore it must adhere to the d20 System.  Case closed.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

It's similar. But clearly as you have shown many times, it is not the d20 system. There are differences. Being "based" on something does not mean that it "is" something.

[Aegeri]

Its based on d20 System, therefore it must adhere to the d20 System.  Case closed.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

It's similar. But clearly as you have shown many times, it is not the d20 system. There are differences. Being "based" on something does not mean that it "is" something.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ironically, if it had used the D20 system things like Force Powers would be balanced, blasters wouldn't be perfectly useless and the game would be better balanced overall.

 

And yet you want them to deviate MORE from the core D20 rules making it even MORE ridiculously imbalanced than it currently is?

[BC83]

How does the D20 system work? (I have not had the pleasure of the pen and paper system) It would also be nice if you got more feats, force powers, skills, or attributes per level. Meaning that as a Gaurdian you would get 2 feats per level, 1 skill point and 1 or 2 force powers, depending on your wisdom. Just a thought.

[Judge Hades]

If you want to take a look at the d20 SYstem go to www.wizards.com. You can download the fantasy d20 System SRD and the modern d20 System SRD for free. Also if you want to learn more about the non-baseline systems head to www.enworld.org.

 

If they went full d20 Star Wars with this game, nearly all the balancing issues in the game would be fixed.

[BC83]

If you want to take a look at the d20 SYstem go to www.wizards.com.  You can download the fantasy d20 System SRD and the modern d20 System SRD for free.  Also if you want to learn more about the non-baseline systems head to www.enworld.org.

 

If they went full d20 Star Wars with this game, nearly all the balancing issues in the game would be fixed.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Thanks. It will be nice to finally know what you are talking about. I still think that there should be a little more availble on level ups, at least depending on what class you are.

[alanschu]

Its based on d20 System, therefore it must adhere to the d20 System.  Case closed.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

It's similar. But clearly as you have shown many times, it is not the d20 system. There are differences. Being "based" on something does not mean that it "is" something.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ironically, if it had used the D20 system things like Force Powers would be balanced, blasters wouldn't be perfectly useless and the game would be better balanced overall.

 

And yet you want them to deviate MORE from the core D20 rules making it even MORE ridiculously imbalanced than it currently is?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I haven't said anything about what I do or do not want in the game.

[Laozi]

would it make you guys happier if they used a D20 1/2 or a D20 2/3

[sandman1347]

would it make you guys happier if they used a D20 1/2 or a D20 2/3

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

They shouldn't use any of those. They should derive a unique system that best suits the game. If they use D20 as a base; as a building block to start with, then so be it. That DOES NOT mean that they have to adhere strictly to any pre-established rule set.

[Judge Hades]

would it make you guys happier if they used a D20 1/2 or a D20 2/3

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I would be happiest if they didn't use d20 System at all. Since they did it needs to adhere to the rules. My mother told me if you are going to do something, do it right. If not, don't do it at all.

[GhostofAnakin]

Hades, do you ever play basketball with a group of friends? If so, do you adhere to every single rule that the NBA has? 24 second shot clock? 12 minute quarters? foul outs? If not, then would you say you're not playing basketball? I doubt anyone who plays a game of pick up basketball would say that.

 

My point? Obsidian (and Bioware) borrowed ASPECTS of a rules system to use, but then modified it to THEIR liking. They took an existing rules system to give them an idea of how things would work, then tweeked things to fit what they wanted their game to be. Just like you and your friends took the basic basketball rules, but eliminated or changed rules that didn't really fit with what you wanted to do.

[Influence]

All electronic games based on the sundry incarnations of the d20 system have had to take liberties with the rules, some more than others. The "all or nothing" argument is facile; even the pencil and paper rules state that the game master has the ultimate discretion when it comes to making rules decisions.

 

Part and parcel with the licensing rights to use these settings (NWN2, Star Wars d20) is the understanding that the underlying rules will be at least recognizable to consumers. They are as much a part of the brand as the setting, and likely, consumers would be upset if they purchased a D&D title that didn't have the six stats, d20 combat rounds, etc.

 

Re. 20th level max in KOTOR: I liked the limit because it meant that there was enough room for customizing how your character's force powers would develop while allowing your Jedi to remain unique because you couldn't take everything. Given another ten levels, every Jedi would be essentially the same, which I think ruins the point. Also, the designers could only script so many events that would award experience for actions outside of combat. Having a limit allowed the designers to balance the flow of the game, so that players actually interested in role-playing could progress and not be penalized for not taking a heavy combat approach. What I didn't like was that you started as a different class whose level then limited how many Jedi levels your character could obtain. Given that the power of the Jedi classes seriously nerfed any of the regular classes, I thought this was a bit unfair. To the designers' credit, however, the game still remained pretty balanced.

 

As for KOTOR2, I'm all for the level 20 limit for game balance purposes, not necessarily because this is what the Star Wars d20 roolz sez. Given that the character starts as a Jedi, my only grievance from the previous game is addressed.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You make good points and you WOULD be right about with ten more levels, every character would be the same if it wasnt for the three new prestige classes and the new force powers and feats, the ten levels would be implemted so that it would keep the same customability as there was in the first game. Other wise some chars would not be able to take advantage of the almost neccessary force powers of the game, such as force sight.

If you a were a LS jedi guardian, you have a very slow forcce power progression and if they used the same force power system, then a LS charactar would only be able to use about 5 force powers out of say, 40.

 

IMPORTANT:Are you with me up to know? cause here is where i make my point. Assuming you are a light side Jedi guardian, it is inevitable, if you want to beat the game, for you to pick force powers that increase your saber abilities such as Master Speed, Heal, and another force power that will increase your defense or offense such as force Aurora. Choosing those powers are pretty much inevitable if you want to create a formidable character. That will leave you with about 1 or 2 force powers to choose from a list of 30. Meaning that all Jedi Guardians will be virtually the same except for 1 or 2 Force powers since with the current leveling/force system thats all you really get.

 

THerefore your argument about more levels destroying the individuality of each character is incorrect. Because in Truth, more levels would allow for more force powers to be chosen from the large variety of powers increasign the customability of the charactar.

 

IMPORANT: I personnally enjoy the 20 level system, i think that going beyond 20 levels is kinda of wierd since you were practically a jedi master in the last game and at level 20. If the first game had been a 30 level system then i woudl say a 30 level system in THIS game would also be good. I just think the sudden switch up within the series would be bad. But i do NOT think that the game shoudl not go over 20 levels because of the D20 system. It should NOT go over 20 levels because KOTOR did not go over 20 levels.

HOWEVER: I REALLY REALLY REALLLy think that an adjustment MUST be made to the 20 level system. To incorporate more Force powers to increase the individuality of characters and to let us make use of the new force powers as well as the neccessary ones like master speed and Heal.

[Influence]

Hades, do you ever play basketball with a group of friends?  If so, do you adhere to every single rule that the NBA has?  24 second shot clock?  12 minute quarters?  foul outs?  If not, then would you say you're not playing basketball?  I doubt anyone who plays a game of pick up basketball would say that.

 

My point?  Obsidian (and Bioware) borrowed ASPECTS of a rules system to use, but then modified it to THEIR liking.  They took an existing rules system to give them an idea of how things would work, then tweeked things to fit what they wanted their game to be.  Just like you and your friends took the basic basketball rules, but eliminated or changed rules that didn't really fit with what you wanted to do.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

GOod point GoA.. for once... but they shoudl ADhere to the KOTOR rules, not the D20 ones..IMO... they laid the ground work for the system in KOTOR and they really should stick to it, but they SHOULD adjust it to better fit the game, just so long as its not throw out the window entirely. Like i said a MODIFIEd 20 levels sytem with a progress bar in which you start out as padawon, end up as a Master, u actaully gain force powers IN BETWEEN levels at some points, and when u gian a new level your status increases as do your force points and stats, would be what i would liek to see. THat would allow for customability as well as stickign to teh 20 level system.

 

Maybe a counsulor would get a new force power eveyr half level on every other level. FOr example At level .5 he gets a power.. at level 1 he gets a power.. at level 2 he gets a power.. at level 2.5 he gets a power..at level 3 he gets a power, at level 4 he gets a power.

 

Maybe a Sentinel would get a power once at every level

 

Maybe a GUardian would get a power every level and a half...

 

Just my two cents.. take it.. its free!