The Expanded Universe (EU)

[Pope]

Just imagine KotOR takes place 400 years before the OT, instead of 4000, and there'll be a lot less inconsistency. I think. The Mandalorians would still be a problem I guess.

[Nur Ab Sal]

Yes, KOTOR indeed looks like it takes place 300-400 years before OT. And Mandalorians were instant problem until Count Dooku exterminated them during

the battle of Galidraan, 48 years before EIV New Hope.

[Hawkeye]

Yes, KOTOR indeed looks like it takes place 300-400 years before OT. And Mandalorians were instant problem until Count Dooku exterminated them during

the battle of Galidraan, 48 years before EIV New Hope.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Since TOTJ is apparently out of print, is that series where the other non-movie races in KOTOR come from? Like the Selkath or the Cathar or the... well whatever that two-headed, humpbacked merchant in Tattooine hangar was?

[Nur Ab Sal]

No these are new ones developed by bioware. And you can still buy Tales of the Jedi on Amazon.

[starwarskid15_19]

GL almost never advices writers and creators of EU. Writers like Zahn or others

deal with Lucas Licensing clerks like Sue Rostoni. Lucas probably doesn't know

about 90% of things that comprises EU. the example of TOTJ is exceptional becouse Lucas was involved in it by himself. Even Thrawn Trilogy was checked by Lucas Licensing not by Lucas!

 

To me fact that EU must be coherent is obvious. If Star Wars as a whole (movies+EU) presents one vision of some fictional universe than all elements like

books and games must not contradict each other. Otherwise Star Wars will convert  into nonsense instead being convincing vision of some far galaxy.

 

Besides vulgar copy of master Yoda is clear evidence of devs' lack of originality.

the ancient era was time of low-tech and there weren't any "cybernetic implants"

4000 years ago. Not to mention that there was no jedi council 4000 years ago - instead great convocations were deciding about order's most important things. One master could train more than one apprentice. Jedi could marry and love. And title 'darth" appeared 3000 years later. And so on...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

but its not one vision because everyone would have their own vision of the star wars universe, now if GL did all the work then yes it would be one vision but when multiple people are in the mix then it becomes a colective idea with changes being made with every new addition of material (not trying to argue here just helping correct this sentence and set the stange for a slightly different aguement ).

 

Also has GL ever said when the title of darth came into use? jsut currious, I mean isn't it possible that it could have been used prior to. Also who first wrote the title of "Darth" into comics? I don't know how to explain this but if your going to say "well if it wasn't before [insert name of comic] then its incorrect" then I have to say what about egypt (going kinda abstract to sorta prove a point her so stay with me for just a little while longer) prior to the early 1900's we knew next to nothing about egypt and with every new discovery the history books had to be changed. Prior to the acctual discovery of a tomb the arciologist(sp?) would have been thought wrong or just plain nuts but after the discovery he would have been called a visionary and given honors for his contribution to history. SO why couldn't the same thing sorta be applied to KOTOR/EU I mean if no one used the titles of darth prior to [instert name of comic] then why couldn't it have been lost or forgotten about or whatever other means you would like to apply to this topic?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

darth was the first name of darth bane. the guy who made the two sith rule. and future sith took the title darth to honor him.

[GhostofAnakin]

Your analysis is wrong . If GL participated himself in creation of TOTJ that's mean that TOTJ are more official that rest of EU.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

That statement is wrong.

 

On the official star wars forum, they had a thread dedicated to this and showed the different "levels of canon". Comics are lower on the order than any authorized books in canon.

 

edit: at the very least, TotJ are no higher up in canon than any of the EU novels, and I distinctly remember it being said that all comics are a tier down from the EU novels.

[Chemix]

first of all from what I know, the love discouragement thing started a litttle after the war with exar kun. Due to the losses caused by jedi not being able to fight the ones they loved, IE Ulic killing his brother who refused to fight, however that did cause him to change his ways. The Jedi are manipulative in a sense, and have great fear, both contradict their laws, but their laws also contradict alot of things. They fear attatchment because it could cost lives, they fear passion because it could become rage, they fear other emotional attatchments because of vengance. And thus manipulation works it's way into the grand jedi order, and thus they try to use the young moldable mind of a child to better change their perspective to fit their veiws.

 

As for EU, some books/comics are officialy accepted and becomes apart of "EU" whereas some does not. And when something becomes EU, it becomes cannon

 

KOTOR's problems lied in:

Full Forbidding of love which was implemented much later

The darth title

The technology

Scale problems which were aparent everywhere

ect. ect.

 

These are all just my opinions/veiws though, all I know on the EU I've read on the starwars databanks, or at star wars boards like these. I've never actualy read any of the EU canon books

[KOTORFanactic]

Well, KOTOR is considered fiction in the starwars universe from what i know.

and i know next to nowt bout EU, so i am happy with the so called problems.

 

If it was considered to be part of true starwars history, i could see the problems.

 

 

Besides, maybe the jedi order would relax on there strictness over time, and then change back to overly strict.

 

I cant giv an answer for tech, darth title, and these scale problems but heh, i aint complaining at all.

[jedipodo]

Yes, KOTOR indeed looks like it takes place 300-400 years before OT. And Mandalorians were instant problem until Count Dooku exterminated them during

the battle of Galidraan, 48 years before EIV New Hope.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Since TOTJ is apparently out of print, is that series where the other non-movie races in KOTOR come from? Like the Selkath or the Cathar or the... well whatever that two-headed, humpbacked merchant in Tattooine hangar was?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

The TOTJ had many races, that looked very cool and exotic. But only Cathar have their appearance in KotOR1, if I remember correctly. However in the comics they look different, more like real lions.

[Darth Nuke]

Also has GL ever said when the title of darth came into use? jsut currious, I mean isn't it possible that it could have been used prior to. Also who first wrote the title of "Darth" into comics? I don't know how to explain this but if your going to say "well if it wasn't before [insert name of comic] then its incorrect" then I have to say what about egypt (going kinda abstract to sorta prove a point her so stay with me for just a little while longer) prior to the early 1900's we knew next to nothing about egypt and with every new discovery the history books had to be changed. Prior to the acctual discovery of a tomb the arciologist(sp?) would have been thought wrong or just plain nuts but after the discovery he would have been called a visionary and given honors for his contribution to history. SO why couldn't the same thing sorta be applied to KOTOR/EU I mean if no one used the titles of darth prior to [instert name of comic] then why couldn't it have been lost or forgotten about or whatever other means you would like to apply to this topic?

 

"Bane of the Sith" explains how title "darth" appeared. It is bioware's laziness that they didn't make any effort to read this 6-page long shortstory and adapt KOTOR to EU. Why are you trying to excuse their slackness? Yes it could be explained the way you say, but it STILL SUCKS - if we have to invent such things like you make, only becouse morons that were responsible for the storyline were just too lazy to

read stuff related to KOTOR times. And you know how long they were doing the storyline? 3 damn years. Enough time to explore this part of star wars and avoid any mistakes I guess.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

The Darth thing isn't Bioware's fault. LFL TOLD Bioware that the Darth title was used during the KOTOR era. Not to mention that a Darth before Bane lived, he was called Darth Riven and there was also a Darth Andeddu. Darth Riven was created way before KOTOR.

[jedipodo]

True KOTOR at least is able to show most basic ideals of SW. But still don't forget that GL really participated in creating TOTJ and so it is also his vision of ancient star wars that had been ignored by bioware.

 

While I can tolerate story of Revan I can't tolerate obvious copying of movies

(sith fighters ehhhh...) and ignoring TOTJ. To me all lore of ancient jedi is in how they differ from Mace Windu and Yoda and yet how they are similar. I liked the vision of ancient jedi as independent wanderers similar to medieval samurai and KOTOR portraited them the same as prequels (strong unified order that controls jedi strictly). Despite I like prequel vision of jedi

too. TOTJ at least gives me feel that jedi who lived 4000 years ago were different.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Though they are referred to as "Sith Fighters" they have been created by the advanced technology of the Star Forge.

Where is your problem with that? The Rakatas invented the TIE-Fighter...

 

PS: Did you know, that the "Levithian"-class warships have been originally designed by the Republic...?

[ShinIchiro]

It seems to me the EU has been largely ignored here...as it has in other situations...

I am suprisingly apathetic to this idea, one (including myself) would think that i would be upset by that...

According to bioware, they spent alot of time researching the EU, so it must have been a concious decision to save time and effort and to instead just simplify things.

 

 

BTW THRAWN TRILOGY RULES!!!!! (someone said it was really bad on page 1 of this thread).

[Nur Ab Sal]

Not to mention that a Darth before Bane lived, he was called Darth Riven and there was also a Darth Andeddu. Darth Riven was created way before KOTOR.

 

"Darth Riven" is a production of another bunch of lazy guys: WOTC. These company invented Riven in the beginning of their activity in SW. It was a bug - one of many they have made. So don't try to defend KOTOR by giving an example of another bug made by another stupid company! Maybe you've heard of a little thing called "tempest feud" the most pathetic RPG scenario ever? WOTC....

 

The fact that WOTC devs were too lazy to explore EU and created some darth doesn't mean that bioeware is innocent.

 

Besides Riven rapes also SW timeline. 30.000 years ago there were no dark lords.

Dark Lords appeared after Great Schism of the Force 20000 years ago. Another mistake that strikes into real fans...

 

"Living Force" campaign that introduced Riven is a real sh..t opinions are the same.

 

Though they are referred to as "Sith Fighters" they have been created by the advanced technology of the Star Forge.

Where is your problem with that? The Rakatas invented the TIE-Fighter... 

 

This is what KOTOR says. And I see obvious lack of originality if they are the same as TIEs. KOTOR starships suck.

 

Leviathan isn't so bad. I can live with him. But I can't stand republic cruisers copied from TPM republic cruisers...

 

 

Ghost of Anakin: yes comics generally are less important that books. But GL is a god-creator of SW and if he participated in TOTJ production that means that TOTJ are somehow more important that Barbara Hambly's terrible novels...

[GhostofAnakin]

Ghost of Anakin: yes comics generally are less important that books. But GL is a god-creator of SW and if he participated in TOTJ production that means that TOTJ are somehow more important that Barbara Hambly's terrible novels...

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While I agree that some novels leave a lot to be desired, the fact is that they're all the same level of "canon".

[Nur Ab Sal]

....and clone wars comics have the same importance as clone wars novels.

[Darth Sirius]

Hey Nur Ab Sal why don't we make a new religion up based on TOTJ? One where everything else is **** if they don't go along with what we think is right? What you say? <_<

 

Different people have different views, different likes and dislikes. Not everyone is totally obsessed with comics as you are! ITS A GAME ITS A COMIC NON OF ITS REAL ANYWAY!! Damn man get a grip!

 

Is it me or are some people rather unhealthily obsessed with star wars?

[jedipodo]

For those who don't believe that some of the EU stuff has become canon, I would suggest to take a look into the OFFICIAL SW databank (www.starwars.com).

I think every EU character, story and location, that is mentioned here, can be seen as canon. The story of Exar Kun and Thrawn are in it, as so KotOR1.

Whether this mix can form a coherent SW universe is another subject...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[GhostofAnakin]

btw, movies are the only things that are truly "canon" in the SW universe.

[Muad'Dib]

The EU being canon or not is a very hot topic and some people religiouly defend both sides of the argument. I've seen statements from both George Lucas and the editors (Or some high position) of Lucasbooks who clearly said the novels and comics are not canon in spite being official products under the SW license, the only thing canon are the movies, official novelizations of the movies and movie scripts. That's the perception I follow when dealing with anything from games to books to cartoons to holliday specials.

 

Jedipodo the SW databank has those in a separate section appropriately titled EU. The EU is officially licensed under the SW universe and it has become so massive and sold so much that the official SW sites recognize their existence. However, if the EU were truly integrated into the canon, there wouldn't be separate sections for the movies and for the EU, it would all be together as part of what did happen in the timeline or whatever information it provides about any character, etc.

 

So for me, there never were any Yuuzhan Vong, there is no Force that can be stripped away or lost or anything like that, the Sith were not an Empire-like military force they were a religious sect counterpart of the Jedi only worshipping the Dark Side instead of the light, the Old Republic was 1k years old not 25k, there have not been 200 clones of multiple bad guys including Palpatine and some others since they couldn't come up with newer more interesting villains, and by God Boba Fett is dead and digested.

 

Still, I see the EU as what could have happened after or before the movies. It's basically up to you, if you like to think Thrawn took control of the Empire 5 years after RotJ and created the Imperial Remnant, then go with that. To me the only things that truly happened in the SW timeline were the movies and references made therein.

[jedipodo]

Is it me or are some people rather unhealthily obsessed with star wars?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Hey, good idea! Please, start a new poll about that!

[Darth Nuke]

Not to mention that a Darth before Bane lived, he was called Darth Riven and there was also a Darth Andeddu. Darth Riven was created way before KOTOR.

 

"Darth Riven" is a production of another bunch of lazy guys: WOTC. These company invented Riven in the beginning of their activity in SW. It was a bug - one of many they have made. So don't try to defend KOTOR by giving an example of another bug made by another stupid company! Maybe you've heard of a little thing called "tempest feud" the most pathetic RPG scenario ever? WOTC....

 

The fact that WOTC devs were too lazy to explore EU and created some darth doesn't mean that bioeware is innocent.

 

Besides Riven rapes also SW timeline. 30.000 years ago there were no dark lords.

Dark Lords appeared after Great Schism of the Force 20000 years ago. Another mistake that strikes into real fans...

 

"Living Force" campaign that introduced Riven is a real sh..t opinions are the same.

 

Though they are referred to as "Sith Fighters" they have been created by the advanced technology of the Star Forge.

Where is your problem with that? The Rakatas invented the TIE-Fighter... 

 

This is what KOTOR says. And I see obvious lack of originality if they are the same as TIEs. KOTOR starships suck.

 

Leviathan isn't so bad. I can live with him. But I can't stand republic cruisers copied from TPM republic cruisers...

 

 

Ghost of Anakin: yes comics generally are less important that books. But GL is a god-creator of SW and if he participated in TOTJ production that means that TOTJ are somehow more important that Barbara Hambly's terrible novels...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

You seem to forget that Rivan regardless of sucky storyline or WOTC bad research is still Canon. And as I also said LFL said Bioware could use the Darth Title.

[Laozi]

I had always heard that George Lucas wanted the Books to be sort of alternative universeish from the movie, thus the distinctions of "movie" and "EU". To be terrible honust I have read alot of the "EU" books, but after awhile was just left with a poor taste for it. The storyline is do dominated by Stackpole and other "somwhat acomplished" writers. In the end it is like forgotten realms, a couple of good writters surronded by mediocrity, and the big problem for starwars post ROTJ writting is that a writer is given too much scope to deal with and can't just write about a small group i.e. Salvatore and his dark elves in other words

"EU" sucks for the most part

[GhostofAnakin]

I've enjoyed most of the EU novels I've read. I guess it's just a matter of opinion.

 

Stackpole's also one of the better authors I've read (along with Stover, Alston and Zahn), so I can't agree with your assessment of him.

[Taran'atar]

The EU is contradicted by the newer movies. Why shouldn't KOTOR do the same?

 

Even if it had some reason not to, most of the "contradictions" I've heard about have to do with the appearance of the ships/technology involved, rather than their function.

[Nur Ab Sal]

Hey Nur Ab Sal why don't we make a new religion up based on TOTJ? One where everything else is **** if they don't go along with what we think is right? What you say?

 

I understand your grief but everything must be coherent in SW and if TOTJ was earlier bioewaree should respect its vision of star wars....

 

The EU is contradicted by the newer movies. Why shouldn't KOTOR do the same?

 

BECOUSE George Lucas himself decided about these contradictions. And these are the movies. And KOTOR is just another game made NOT by Lucas but by some uneducated canadian lackeys. Not to mention that TOTJ was created also by Lucas.

Are you so lazy that you didn't read previous posts in this thread? How many times do I have to tell that TOTJ is more official that most of EU novels?