CastleBravo Posted September 20, 2004 Share Posted September 20, 2004 This draft stuff is bull. The MILITARY doesn't want a draft, and if they don't what one, what the hell makes anybody think that Congress and the President will force one on them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dakoth Posted September 20, 2004 Share Posted September 20, 2004 While I agree with that some what, for the militery to go against the direct wishes of our congress and their commander and chief is a little scary. :ph34r: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Posted September 20, 2004 Share Posted September 20, 2004 The military does not want a draft. When I say military, I mean the field level commanders and senior enlisted. Those people have a difficult enough time dealing with the "I joined for the college money..." crowd. They don't want to also have to deal with the whiney, demanding, coddled, not-me generation as well. (There are exceptions, but in the US they are the rule today). The senior military does not want a draft either. The talk of a draft was started as a part of partisan politics leading up to this year's elections as a means to scare people. Scare people away from your rival type of speech. But what about the leaks to the press about talks in DC about initiating a draft? What about them? In an effort to touch all bases, whenever a major military action is being executed, they will talk about all possibilities, in anticipation of unexpected outcomes. They talked about a draft during the first gulf war as well. They talked about it again in the 90's when the US was running in and out if despot nations all over the place. They talked about it during this gulf war. They talk about it because they have to be ready for all contingencies. Let's say Iran gets a little restless tomorrow and drops a few dirty bombs on Iraq effectively wiping out over 100,000 US troops in a very short period of time. Then what? Then you might need to start up a draft, but not for normal troop rotation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monte Carlo Posted September 20, 2004 Share Posted September 20, 2004 Grandpa speaks much wisdom. If we can get away from irrelevant age-of-beer-drinking nonsense and back on topic, look at it like this: We live, in the West, in an age of abandon and illusory individualism. Imagine if tomorrow Donald "my hero" Rumsfeld issued a draft. Guess what? Almost every American 18-21 year old not living in the flyover states would burn their draft card and ask to be put in a stockade. You'd need more redneck reservist MP's to lock 'em up than you would to drag Iraqi POWs around on dog leashes. Point the second: conscripts are resource-intensive. They tend to perform well in popular wars of national survival (WW2) but badly in politically sensitive ones (Vietnam). Which category do you put Iraq into? Burdening the middle-management backbone of the regular army (the senior NCOs) with poorly-motivated and trained draftees isn't the way forward here. Seriously. What do most modern armies need with regards to reservists? Civilian specialists in telecommunications, logistics, medicine, intelligence and so on. Infantry work is getting increasingly technological and not fit for conscripted grunts. It really is Point Not Found. If the US army could acceptably draft qualified IT technicians, telecommunications engineers, paramedics, arabic language specialists and so on then maybe I'd see where this argument might be going. This is a Democrat scare story, and a clumsy one at that. The US voters who are most likely to vote Democrat who would be affected (do you honestly imagine that Volvo-driving Vermont Democrats would send their kids?) in the blue-collar rustbelt are also, ironically, the most patriotic and likely to heed the call (the Deerhunter classes, I'd call them). My money is on no draft unless there is some hugely seriously big merde about to hit the fan. Then, hell, they'd probably even be calling the likes of me up. Cheers MC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weiser_Cain Posted September 20, 2004 Share Posted September 20, 2004 I tend to think you're wrong most americans would do their duty, how well the do it is another matter. Abu Ghurayb was nothing to me, I'd shoot anyone that looked at me wrong. Now I ask you do you think they should draft me? Yaw devs, Yaw!!! ( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monte Carlo Posted September 20, 2004 Share Posted September 20, 2004 No. Your evident lack of self-discipline would obviate you from being an effective infantry soldier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weiser_Cain Posted September 20, 2004 Share Posted September 20, 2004 And I'm far, far from the most violent and impulsive person I know. Yaw devs, Yaw!!! ( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monte Carlo Posted September 20, 2004 Share Posted September 20, 2004 Ergo, my point about the draft is proved in abundance. Some of the best infantry leaders I ever met were quiet, considered men who did not enjoy violence, despite being extremely adept at it. They are also men who would be sickened by the REMFs at abu graib abusing prisoners, FWIW. Cheers MC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weiser_Cain Posted September 20, 2004 Share Posted September 20, 2004 That's not to say violent people make bad soldiers, but drafting soldiers in mass a few rotten apples will slip through the net and in any case training will probably suffer leading to more delicate situations. Which really matters in political wars like this one... You know I wouldn't mind getting drafted into a war of extermination, but this isn't one of those. Yaw devs, Yaw!!! ( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarjahurmaaja. Posted September 20, 2004 Share Posted September 20, 2004 Isn't it funny how internet is full of these super strong, adrenaline driven sociopaths who want to kill, kill and kill, and just barely can prevent that from happening, but are incapable of preventing the frequent street fights, barbrawls, etc, where they generally just kick ass - and you never, ever meet these guys in real life? "That's not to say violent people make bad soldiers [...]" They do. 9/30 -- NEVER FORGET! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deganawida Posted September 20, 2004 Share Posted September 20, 2004 Yup, the best soldiers aren't those who will kill you with a smile on their face and a song on their lips, but those who will kill you with a tear in their eye and heart of regret. They are individuals who will kill you because you need to die in order to save other lives, not because they want you dead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Volourn Posted September 20, 2004 Share Posted September 20, 2004 "Yup, the best soldiers aren't those who will kill you with a smile on their face and a song on their lips, but those who will kill you with a tear in their eye and heart of regret. They are individuals who will kill you because you need to die in order to save other lives, not because they want you dead." I'm hearing violin music. DWARVES IN PROJECT ETERNITY = VOLOURN HAS PLEDGED $250. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weiser_Cain Posted September 20, 2004 Share Posted September 20, 2004 Isn't it funny how internet is full of these super strong, adrenaline driven sociopaths who want to kill, kill and kill, and just barely can prevent that from happening, but are incapable of preventing the frequent street fights, barbrawls, etc, where they generally just kick ass - and you never, ever meet these guys in real life? "That's not to say violent people make bad soldiers [...]" They do. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> One, you're from finland, come to chicago and I'll take you on a tour of the city you'll be lucky to survive. Two, I think enough members of my family are in prison as it is, plus I still have a future I'd rather not screw up. Three, it's all about controlled violence. Yaw devs, Yaw!!! ( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarjahurmaaja. Posted September 20, 2004 Share Posted September 20, 2004 Sure thing, lil' girl. 9/30 -- NEVER FORGET! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weiser_Cain Posted September 20, 2004 Share Posted September 20, 2004 Don't see how that negates any of my points... Yaw devs, Yaw!!! ( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarjahurmaaja. Posted September 20, 2004 Share Posted September 20, 2004 No, it's just there to convey how seriously I take you. Now, adios, it's 0:20 and I'm going to bed. 9/30 -- NEVER FORGET! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weiser_Cain Posted September 20, 2004 Share Posted September 20, 2004 That may be more a comment about the internet not being the best place to have an argument than having anything to do with the believability of my arguments. Yaw devs, Yaw!!! ( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dakoth Posted September 20, 2004 Share Posted September 20, 2004 One, you're from finland, come to chicago and I'll take you on a tour of the city you'll be lucky to survive. Wouldn't happen to be either south or west Chicago would it.(As in Cabrini Green or Rockwell gardens would it?) Two, I think enough members of my family are in prison as it is, plus I still have a future I'd rather not screw up Bah Chicago Metro and State Ville always have room for one more. Dang there I go again getting off topic I hope Monte doesn't see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkan Posted September 20, 2004 Share Posted September 20, 2004 One, you're from finland, come to chicago and I'll take you on a tour of the city you'll be lucky to survive.Two, I think enough members of my family are in prison as it is, plus I still have a future I'd rather not screw up. Three, it's all about controlled violence. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Wow...we've got a tough one on our hands... "Of course the people don't want war. But after all, it's the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it's always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it's a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger." - Herman Goering at the Nuremberg trials "I have also been slowly coming to the realisation that knowledge and happiness are not necessarily coincident, and quite often mutually exclusive" - meta Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Child of Flame Posted September 20, 2004 Share Posted September 20, 2004 I would just like to say that it's the attitude of killing as many 'towelheads' as possible that Weiser Cain shows, that causes sh!t like THIS to happen. Bog almighty, when are you people going to get it knocked into your heads that the people aren't going to welcome us with flower parades for invading their country and killing their people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TentamusDarkblade Posted September 21, 2004 Share Posted September 21, 2004 wait...you mean that doesn't work? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Child of Flame Posted September 21, 2004 Share Posted September 21, 2004 wait...you mean that doesn't work? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Well, the president seems to think so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Product of the Cosmos Posted September 21, 2004 Author Share Posted September 21, 2004 "My money is on no draft unless there is some hugely seriously big merde about to hit the fan." And what is not really talked about right now due to the election, **** is hitting the fan... The Iraq war is certainly not getting better for us. Niether is the Afgan war. Then we have terrorists in the homeland planning an attack, unless that is all a bunch of fear based propaganda. Then we have Syria and Iran to **** with when Bush wins the next election. I'm not sure people realize who we have running our country. And their intent... "We shall have world government whether you like it or not, by conquest or consent." -James Warburg, before the Senate foriegn relations commitee. "He who fights too long agianst dragons becomes a dragon himself." -Frederick Nietzsche "The job of the President is not to wield power himself, but to lead attention away from it." -Douglas Adams "The mark of an immature man is that he wants to die for a cause, while the mark of a mature man is that he wants to live humbly for one." -William Stekel "Problems cannot be solved with the same level of intelligence that created them" -Albert Einstien Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monte Carlo Posted September 21, 2004 Share Posted September 21, 2004 Random quotes and paranoia does not a cogent argument make. If I were you I'd adjust the antenna on your tin-foil Napoleon hat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Product of the Cosmos Posted September 21, 2004 Author Share Posted September 21, 2004 Random quotes and paranoia does not a cogent argument make. If I were you I'd adjust the antenna on your tin-foil Napoleon hat. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> lol. "Ours is the age which is proud of machines which think, and suspicious of men who try to." -H. M. Jones "The past record of man is burdened with accounts of assasinations, secret combines, palace plots and betrayals in war. But in spite of this clear record, an amazing number of people have begun to scoff at the possibility of conspiracy at work today. They dismiss such an idea merely a conspiratorial point of view." -G. Edward Griffin "I do not mind to be called a 'conspiracy theorist' by those who are called 'coincidence theorists'" -John Judge I agree with Judge. "The individual is handicapped by coming face to face with a conspiracy so monstrous he cannot believe it exists." -J Edgar Hoover "I really look with commiseration over the great body of my fellow citizens who, reading newspapers, live and die in the belief that they have known something of what has been passing in their times." -Thomas Jefferson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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