Darth_Gandalf Posted June 26, 2004 Author Posted June 26, 2004 Well, it is rather healthy to maintain some semblance of a real life outside of computer gaming, as fun as it may be. "You shall not pass!"
Judge Hades Posted June 26, 2004 Posted June 26, 2004 Of course, but when I do game, which is not very often nowadays, I want a game that will challenge me and give a good immersive story to it that allows me to play a character I wish within the seting it is providing. KotOR failed to do that.
ShinIchiro Posted June 26, 2004 Posted June 26, 2004 KotOR didn't expand the market. It made it weaker, therefore more acceptable to the "casual" gamer who can't handle a real game. First of all, how isn't that expanding the market (even if you defined it badly). Secondly, a FPS obsessive could say the same thing about a rpger; that they play weaker games and can't handle a real game. You're just biased (as is any fan of a game) and don't even pretend to try and be fair. It's okay, I'm biased towards RPGs (in general not just pnp style or crpg) and have argued more vehemently than you have. When I'm not angry, however, I prefer to maintain a sembalance of fairness and impartiality.
Judge Hades Posted June 26, 2004 Posted June 26, 2004 I have played quite a number of FPS games. Half Life, Deus Ex, Quake, Unreal, Doom, and so forth. Not much of a challenge there.
ShinIchiro Posted June 26, 2004 Posted June 26, 2004 Every fanatic argues for their genre vehemently. Its what makes them a fan. What i find suprising is that so many of us use the same arguments.
Judge Hades Posted June 26, 2004 Posted June 26, 2004 True. :D It doesn't change the fact that KotOR failed to be a challenge and KotOR2 is going to follow the same vein.
ShinIchiro Posted June 26, 2004 Posted June 26, 2004 Whoa, unless you're psychic... Always in motion the future is. We know virtually nothing about this game other than a few tidbits and it's going to be like KOTOR 1. Have you tried playing as a scoundrel/consular in KOTOR 1 on hard difficulty? It's a little harder. Try picking mission and t3 to come with you.
nightcleaver Posted June 26, 2004 Posted June 26, 2004 Blah... (my turn to be cynical, teehee...) D20 rules were made by up-tight dm's who might not have had a college education - in other words, I'm not too confident about their intelligence, though I'm sure they're perfectly intelligent. In real life there's some imbalance. In real life, people bleed to death - but they can also rest 24 hours a day. Not sleep, but rest - and most people can even SLEEP on the ground without a stupid binky. The hitpoint system doesn't work like real life. Now, I wouldn't mind any of those problems, save that those limitations fail to make the game fun. The only reason I use the argument that it's not realistic is because I know someone is likely to jump in and point out that those things ARE realistic, if I don't cover them. The hitpoint system makes it necessary to deal as much damage as possible. Getting a blow in isn't the point. This makes melee, even ranged (bow) support very boring and unimaginative. They make trade-offs like damage for attack, attack for ac... etc., but it's still pretty lame for the most part. I have the repeated issue with a number of D20 games that fighting one monster is almost exactly like fighting another, which is again unrealistic. This is, in fact, because of the HP system. It's far from perfect. This is why I don't like the idea of attaching Force powers to vitality. A temporary hit to AC would solve the problem, while not causing other problems such as using healing packs to use more force powers. Honestly, if PC's were allowed to be dragons, I wouldn't mind letting them be a LITTLE more powerful than the other PC's. I would prefer a tradeoff, though, to make other character's feel more useful - A dragon would be extremely large, and maybe limited to his lair, and certainly wouldn't be the adventuring type. In KotOR - fewer skill points does this, and the fact that (as in the movies) non-jedi will use their non-jedi skills throughout the game, and thus be useful in individual ways that the Jedi can't be. Honestly, Luke Skywalker did the most important things - but he seemed to do the least. While he was capable of doing far greater things than other non-Force users, he wasn't capable in the same way. In KotOR (I and II) we have the option to make Force training limiting; you have Force skills, but since you've spent so much of your life training them, you have little room for other skills, unless Force enhanced. Jedi should be more powerful than other character's - that's the point, that's their "special ability". Combat should be a bit easier for them; but keep in mind that the Jedi don't deflect every bolt, and they have to get up close to do any damage. (unless they spam with the Force) Talented bounty hunter's are perfectly capable of taking on a Jedi; their advantage is their skill. And from what I've seen, that's exactly what Obsidian is working on doing.
Darth_Gandalf Posted June 26, 2004 Author Posted June 26, 2004 Bravo, nightcleaver! I definitely couldn't have put it any better myself! Yes, most Jedi will have amazing force powers and often deadly fighting prowess. But you generally won't see a super fighting/force power/bounty hunter/scout/solider/scoundrel/computer technician Jedi! "You shall not pass!"
JohnDoe Posted June 27, 2004 Posted June 27, 2004 KotOR didn't expand the market. It made it weaker, therefore more acceptable to the "casual" gamer who can't handle a real game. *Yawn* As if playing a certain type of game makes one a hardcore gamer as opposed to a casual gamer. I play every genre of gamers and enjoy them all. Some days I feel like an RPG, some days I want to let lose and play a FPS, other days I want to test my tactics and play a turn based strategy, other days I feel like an RTS. You're limiting your enjoyment if you just pick a certain type and only play that in order to satisfy your distorted sense of gamer pride.
Judge Hades Posted June 27, 2004 Posted June 27, 2004 I bet you wouldn't say that to Monte Cook's face, nightcleaver. Hell, even Sean K. Reynolds is one of the top designers of the d20 System as are Stan! and Ryan Darcy. I am sure that all these authors don't have a college education. Now attacking the Hit Point system of the d20 System is downright stupid because there are multiple systems compatible with the d20 System. There is the Wound/Vitality system that is used in Star Wars d20/Spycraft. There is the baseline that is in DnD d20. There is changes in the Massive Damage rules in d20 Modern that reflects closer to reality. Such as if your character takes more than his Damage Threshold (which is the Constitution Score) he has to make a Fortitude save. Failed save means down to -1 and you are dying. A Solid hit with a 9mm handgun (baseline 2d8 damage) can send anyone to the floor in one hit. May they have 100 hit points or 20. Hmm... kind of blows your theory out o the water there, nightcleaver. Also there are detailed combat systems in Unearthed Arcana that doesn't even use hit points at all. Gee, have you taken them into account. I guess us uneducated DMs have access to various different types of damage systems that reflect reality pretty darn good, eh. I bet you even seen the Grim and Gritty combat rules written by Kevin Dorner. Yep, we DMs are mighty uneducated. They wrote the Star Wars system as they did to balance Force users and the rest of the PCs so the fun can be had by all players and all characters/ Making one class uber and the focus is just poor design.
Judge Hades Posted June 27, 2004 Posted June 27, 2004 I play every genre of gamers and enjoy them all. SPEEEEEEEEEEWWWWWWWWWW!
nightcleaver Posted June 27, 2004 Posted June 27, 2004 I bet you wouldn't say that to Monte Cook's face, nightcleaver.
Judge Hades Posted June 27, 2004 Posted June 27, 2004 What you don't get that there are multiple hit point systems available for use in the d20 System that can make the game very realistic or very abstract depending on the style of gameplay. There was no real good reason for Bioware to change the Wound/Vitality system the way the did for the first KotOR nor is there any good reason for Obsidian to keep it. The only consistancy I need is that the game reflects the rules that it is base on which in this case being Star Wars d20. If they are incapable due to their lack of talent or technical expertise then they should use an original system instead of trying to butcher the set rules. As you say, there needs to be consistancy.
Drakron Posted June 27, 2004 Posted June 27, 2004 Edit: not directed to Hades post but the one before it. But he is right, the HP system comes from D&D and d20 modular system can complety remove it and still be d20. Star Wars d20 uses many diferent rules variations over D&D 3rd edition, for example in the revised Star Wars d20 rules they changed armor so it gives DR instead of Defence and all classes gain Defence as they level up so armor is still useful but characters can go without it and dont have to be forced to wear it to cover defence gaps. SW:KotOR is a HORRIBLE example of the d20 rules, it was munchkinized and powergamerized by BioWare, if you have problems with it go to BioWare and not Wizards of the Cost, god knows I do have a problem with their revised D&D rules but I am not going to blame then for what BioWare did. Point is you can make one of the best system in the world (I am not claiming that d20 system is one) but its very easy to destroy that system, claiming that WotC is at fault with the d20 system as designed because Bioware gone in and altered is wrong and that is what you are doing. Hades_One is right.
Judge Hades Posted June 27, 2004 Posted June 27, 2004 Hades_One is right. Damn, I need to frame that. Twice in one life time! That must be a new record.
nightcleaver Posted June 27, 2004 Posted June 27, 2004 Well, anyway, I'd like to see these rules. I was working on a system of my own, but maybe what you mentioned works just fine. It's agreed that they should make their own ruleset. They wanted to change it, but they changed it until it sucked. To be honest, I'm pretty annoyed at the whole system that totally rules everything, yet seems so stupid. People handle it like the bible of all roleplaying, even though the only reason they use those rules is, frankly, because they have a monopoly over the market. I think a CRPG needs something more complex, unless the purpose is to recreate the "PnP feel". The class system totally limits character development - regardless of feats, as far as I know - and strict DM's who couldn't tell balanced from, well, their ass, refuse to let players manage or have any fun/creativity with the system. Maybe it was wrong to bring the maker's into it - perhaps it's just the stupidity of the DM's I've been around - but seeing that they, being quite knowledgable about rulesets and such (or they ought to have been, I'm not sure), blame it on the rules and don't believe in breaking them for any reason, I'm bound to throw a mild insult about the "big guy's" education for being so nearsighted, and yet so totally worshipped. I don't know about you, but for the D20 system I've grown to know, it would be pretty sad that educated people see their ideas as so absolute when THEY (the Maker's themselves) don't even have a college education. It would be fine, however, with the revisions you mentioned (assuming they do what I think they do) and intelligent dm's that have a concept for balance and fun. And regardless of education, if their system is good and there's good reason (not just blind faith of everyone) to follow it, it should be followed. And finally, thank you for handling this better than I expected you to. I really needed a, "kick in the pants." Or maybe that's a little too nice.
Judge Hades Posted June 27, 2004 Posted June 27, 2004 That is why I am always for CRPGs use their own original system made by the developers instead trying to shoe horn a PnP rules system to a computer. Its never going to happen to a satisfactory level. That is why games like Fallout, Fallout 2, and Arcanum will always be superior to games like KotOR, NWN, and V:TM. If they could do KotOR and KotOR 2 story in an original rules system I wouldn't be whinging. :D Well, maybe I would but not as much.
Drakron Posted June 27, 2004 Posted June 27, 2004 Actually most people dont see the forest because of the tree. RPG mechanics simply determin outcome of some actions, I do not need to convice my DM during roleplay as my character could convice a NPC with his skill ... of course I could figure out a solution outside my characters skills but that depends on a lot of factors, if my characters knows the password because a NPC told him there would be no need to use any of his skills to pass the guards. he says the password and he is simply allowed in. Many people forget that and rollplay but then we have the extreme roleplayers that belive the end of all things is done by roleplaying, again if the guards are told how my character looks like and do not allow him entrt knowing the password does no good since he needs to pass the guards some other way or bluff his way in. The class system is another thing people confuse, its simply a framework for character skills advancement it sould never define the character (however there are some classes that do, people sould be aware of it) because classess systems not only end up being unbalanced in some way (inevitable to all system but classess system are far more open to abuse and min-max) but also require a lot more learning from the player part with is not very nice to starting players. The d20 system is not perfect but its modular design is atractive, there are only a few things that sould not be changed (such as doing what BioWare did with the Int stat and skill modifiers, its a perfect example of how to break the system) without having to redesign most of the system. Problem with the d20 system is that BioWare abused him.
Darth_Gandalf Posted June 27, 2004 Author Posted June 27, 2004 It'll be okay. Take a deep breath! Everything will be fine... "You shall not pass!"
JohnDoe Posted June 27, 2004 Posted June 27, 2004 That is why I am always for CRPGs use their own original system made by the developers instead trying to shoe horn a PnP rules system to a computer. Its never going to happen to a satisfactory level. Oh my god! You said something I agree with. Something must be wrong....
Judge Hades Posted June 27, 2004 Posted June 27, 2004 Nah, nothing is wrong. Its just that on rare occassions I say something that everyone can agree with. Doesn't happen often so don't get use to it.
nightcleaver Posted June 27, 2004 Posted June 27, 2004 I think they were trying to have fewer skill points to balance the game because of how few skills they had compared to the PnP version... Here's how that should've worked: the number of skill points would be limited. It would still make 18 in INT not comparable to 18 in any other stat, but it would be better than forcing you to spend a bunch of points just to get a bonus from the Intelligence stat. Bring this up on the Bioware boards, and the dev's would get insulted. Maybe Gaider would make a smart-ass remark... great PR... *sigh*
Darth_Gandalf Posted June 27, 2004 Author Posted June 27, 2004 Well, somebody could always start a thread suggesting to the Devs just what they need to do to rectify anything that may be amiss with the system... "You shall not pass!"
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