Possible Proof:

[sniggy]

i wish i could understand arabic, though. sometimes, getting exact opposites will show you what's in the middle of both stories. (thinking kotor murder case, here ;-)

 

and sadly, i can't get fox in berlin. but their website also has news, so...

[EnderAndrew]

As far as sports-killings, I haven't heard anything like that.

 

The US media had no qualms protraying the US military as villians in Viet Nam. It is a possibility that Arabic news stations are showing footage and claiming it came from CNN.

 

Then again Arabic news stations were showing footage of rubble early in the war and claiming that the US intentionally bombed all the schools and hospitals in Iraq, killing all these civilians. The Red Cross came in, and lo and behold the hospitals were intact, though abandoned.

 

I keep hearing claims of bombing tens of thousands of civilians. First off, the line between civilians and soldiers isn't clear right now. Secondly, I keep hearing conflicting stories. When the smoke clears and the dust settles, I'd be curious to see arguments on both sides.

[sniggy]

there was a wounded guy lying on the concrete, with no other threats around ( i assume the crew wouldn't be filming standing up if there were). the guy was trying to surrender. a g.i. shot him and said "gotcha". then he smiled into the camera.

 

that's the clip. they called it sports kiling (or shooting?) in german media. there's been similar stuff in the arabic media, though- showing iraqi cruelties on us and british troops. most cruelties consisting of running towards an armored vehicle like an idiot just to be overrun by it.

 

villians in Viet Nam.  It is a possibility that Arabic news stations are showing footage and claiming it came from CNN.

 

it's not just a possibility. thats what happened. i guess its normal for our medial age. (though by normal i don't mean that i approve of stuff like that)

 

Then again Arabic news stations were showing footage of rubble early in the war and claiming that the US intentionally bombed all the schools and hospitals in Iraq, killing all these civilians.  The Red Cross came in, and lo and behold the hospitals were intact, though abandoned.

 

this was the most medial war there ever was in history, i guess- more a propaganda war then anything else. just look at comical ali. i could watch him going "there are no americans in bagdad" on an arabic news station (with english subs) while seeing armored vehicles entering town on CNN. ironic...

 

I keep hearing claims of bombing tens of thousands of civilians.  First off, the line between civilians and soldiers isn't clear right now.  Secondly, I keep hearing conflicting stories.  When the smoke clears and the dust settles, I'd be curious to see arguments on both sides.

 

which is true- but hey- it's war. what did people expect? there have been less civilian casualties then in any other comparable war. there just seem to be so many of them because there was total media coverage.

 

the conflicting stories is just a symptom of that coverage.

 

as to your last point: i hope you are right and that the dust really does settle. i just don't see it for that region right now.

[EnderAndrew]

WWII had it's fair share of propoganda on all sides. The United States showed children's cartoons with Hitler as the villian. However, WWII propoganda was all opinions and idealogy. You chose to accept it or not to. The propoganda in Iraq consists of two sides throwing around numbers and supposed-facts and I suspect there is alot of deception and lies going on.

[sniggy]

WWII had it's fair share of propoganda on all sides. The United States showed children's cartoons with Hitler as the villian. However, WWII propoganda was all opinions and idealogy. You chose to accept it or not to. The propoganda in Iraq consists of two sides throwing around numbers and supposed-facts and I suspect there is alot of deception and lies going on.

i think the overly dramatic cartoons of WWII simply wouldnt work today. also, one side couldn't see the other sides opinion as clearly as they can see today.

 

we're gonna have more and more confusing situations in conflicts like these in the future. we can only hope to have idealistic and brave journalists in the future. some who won't be shy to investigate and will make use of their right of free speech.

 

governments will have further problems to earn the trust of the people. we have a similar problem here (though ours is based on our crappy economy right now)

[Phosphor]

Everyone should fill in where they come from, I ignore criticism from foreigners. They don't get a say!

I think that is an excellent bit of advice, and as an American, perhaps you should follow it as well. As a foreigner to the rest of the world, keep your commentary on world politics to yourself, and refuse yourself a say.

[Weiser_Cain]

oh and why is THAT exactly?

 

I don't trust foreigners to look at anything we do with a level head.

 

I understand now why you like Bush.

 

Ps. I am from Sweden.

 

As usual you understand nothing. I don't like bush, I voted against him, I'll do it again.

 

I'd guessed where you were from.

 

I think that is an excellent bit of advice, and as an American, perhaps you should follow it as well. As a foreigner to the rest of the world, keep your commentary on world politics to yourself, and refuse yourself a say.

 

Get off my internet(kidding)! I practice what I preach. If it doesn't involve the US or humanity as a whole I really don't care about it.

[Volourn]

Iraqis are better off without Saddam. Period. Case closed.

[Judge Hades]

The Iraqis might be better off with Saddam gone, but they would even better off with Bush gone.

[EnderAndrew]

In another two weeks he will be gone.

 

On the 30th, we completely hand over the keys to the new Iraqi government. Too bad they don't have training wheels. I'm not sure they're ready, but we'll see soon enough.

[Judge Hades]

The US needs to take of the US first and foremost. It is stupid for Bush to think we should be the policemen of the world. Let the Iraqis rule their own country for good or for ill. If they are stupid enough to let another Saddam into power or someone worse that is their own damn fault and we shouldn't butt in.

 

Let people rule themselves and if the are weak then they don't deserve to live.

[EnderAndrew]

The US needs to take of the US first and foremost. It is stupid for Bush to think we should be the policemen of the world. Let the Iraqis rule their own country for good or for ill. If they are stupid enough to let another Saddam into power or someone worse that is their own damn fault and we shouldn't butt in.

 

Let people rule themselves and if the are weak then they don't deserve to live.

If the United States cut themselves off today from foreign countries, I'd hate to think what would happen.

 

A good chunk of our labor and trade is with foreign countries. Businesses would crumble. Other countries would scream and throw a fit because of negative impacts it would have there. What about the relief packages we send to impoverished countries?

 

Do you still maintain that weak countries should just die off?

 

We tried to be isolationist before WWI and WWII. In both instances the US was attacked. And on September 11th we were attacked again by Al Quaeda despite the fact that we had never really attacked them. Before September 11th, Al Quaeda had launched other terrorist attacks on the US.

 

I'd like to see you stand face to face with the families of those victims and tell them that you think the US wasn't hurt, or that the attacks didn't matter. On September 11th, I was deeply hurt and moved. And if you told me then what I just read now, I would have decked you.

 

Then again, you don't have to care. And you're entitled to your opinion. You're also entitled to express it because the members of the United States armed forces give their lives to protect those rights for you.

 

Too bad the American public doesn't recognize that, or do their part to stay informed or vote.

[Judge Hades]

If the United States cut themselves off today from foreign countries, I'd hate to think what would happen.

 

A good chunk of our labor and trade is with foreign countries. Businesses would crumble. Other countries would scream and throw a fit because of negative impacts it would have there. What about the relief packages we send to impoverished countries?

 

Do you still maintain that weak countries should just die off?

 

We tried to be isolationist before WWI and WWII. In both instances the US was attacked. And on September 11th we were attacked again by Al Quaeda despite the fact that we had never really attacked them. Before September 11th, Al Quaeda had launched other terrorist attacks on the US.

 

I'd like to see you stand face to face with the families of those victims and tell them that you think the US wasn't hurt, or that the attacks didn't matter. On September 11th, I was deeply hurt and moved. And if you told me then what I just read now, I would have decked you.

 

Then again, you don't have to care. And you're entitled to your opinion. You're also entitled to express it because the members of the United States armed forces give their lives to protect those rights for you.

 

Too bad the American public doesn't recognize that, or do their part to stay informed or vote.

I am not saying cut ourselves from trade and business. That would be stupid because that would harm the economy and U.S. citizens whose jobs are vital to such trade. As for relief packages that money needs to stay here. Our education system is in shabbles, we have millions of homeless people, and millions more unemployed.

 

Social Darwinism, Ender, is the way to go. The weak needs to either be absorbed by the strong or die off. As I said, not isolationism, but keep foreign aid, military aid, and so forth to a minimum if any at all.

 

THe attacks on 9/11 was a tragedy yes, and we responded in kind. Destroyed the Taliban and killed as many of Al Queda as was possible but after that Bush decided to "help" the Afghans who put those buggers into power then go after Saddam and waste more money. Destroyed the Taliban and Al Queda then we should have had our troops come home. Sure more than a thousand people died in that attack, but it is only a foot note in history, just like Pearl harbor, and humanity is in no danger of extinction.

 

I do stay informed and vote. Didn't help in the last election with our appointed President. I was also in the military, the Navy to be exact, so I did recognize the sacrifice and it is sick to see that the American soldiers dying for one man's vengenace and corporate agenda.

[EnderAndrew]

But there is politics in what countries we do business with, and which ones we don't.

 

One of the main reasons the United States gets attacked by terrorists is because of our financial ties to Isreal.

[Judge Hades]

Israel is one coutry we should cut all ties to \. If there is one country that deserves to be nuked its that one.

[ramza]

By the way, I also remember watching a documentary in which they said that Usama's family was gathered in New York for business meetings with Bush's administration (or something like that, what matters is that they were affiliated to Bush) during the month of September 2001... When the events happened on the 11th, instead of keeping them for interrogation, he put a private jet at their disposal to help them have a safe return in Egypt...

 

Too much conspiracy... :ph34r: Who to believe?

[EnderAndrew]

By the way, I also remember watching a documentary in which they said that Usama's family was gathered in New York for business meetings with Bush's administration (or something like that, what matters is that they were affiliated to Bush) during the month of September 2001... When the events happened on the 11th, instead of keeping them for interrogation, he put a private jet at their disposal to help them have a safe return in Egypt...

 

Too much conspiracy... :ph34r: Who to believe?

That's what Fahrenheit 9/11 is about. I'll watch the documentary and then try to do some fact checking. But right now I don't trust Michael Moore a whole lot. He doesn't have a great track record.

[ramza]

Yep, count them, four. Who is the war-monger? Bush pursued diplomacy with Iraq while Clinton bombed them without even speaking to the UN or the world seeking support. Clinton dropped bombs in Serbia without asking anyone, and killed plenty of civilians. You see relief packages were yellow, and so were the bombs.

 

Michael Moore and the liberal media said Bush went into Iraq to steal oil. Do some research, and you'll see that's not the case. Bush has done everything in his power to make it so the United States wouldn't need or use oil as much.

 

Bush lacks certain social acumen, and I disagree with some of his policies. But Bush is not a liar.

 

Let's try a small exercise in common sense. The foreign intellege community of the world all agrees that Iraq has WMD. The UN says it, and both Democrats and Republicans in this country say it. Bush makes it publically clear he has his eye on Iraq. He warns them to comply immediately or else. We pursue diplomacy for two years. We see caravans of trucks leaving Iraq and going into Syria. When we invade Iraq, Syria is continuing to evacuate people from Baghdad into Syria. Syria sends troops into combat against the US and openly admits to supporting Iraq.

 

IS IT POSSIBLE THE WMD ARE IN SYRIA?

 

Yes. We found small amounts of WMD in Iraq. We found training labs, and manuals for the use of WMD. All evidence points to the fact that they once had WMD. If Bush was a liar, we could plant WMD in Iraq. If this was some great conspiracy, don't you think he would plant some there?

 

Does it make any sense whatsoever to have this great conspiracy based around WMD, lie to the world, lie to your country, and then not take the next step and plant WMD?

 

The claims that Bush lied to bring the US into a war are not only false, the notion makes my heart hurt. It makes no sense what so ever. I dare you to make a logical argument debunking my claims here and demonstrating how he lied. I'm laying down the gauntlet. Please go ahead and try.

 

And while you're at it, I'd like to remind you that we also liberated 25 million people from a true dictator. You do know what the word dictator means, right?

First of all, must I remind you that it is that same stupid Bush that restored the death penalty? When I hear only that, it is enough to make me despise him...

 

You say that Clinton bombed serbia without asking anyone... Wrong, it's the European Union itself (through NATO) that asked the US to help them resolve that conflict. The UE didn't know what to do because there was a lack of consensus when they had to take a decision and they believed that the US was in the best position to put an end to everything...

 

You say Bush didn't want Iraki oil... Are you sure about that? He said he wanted to restore democracy in Irak... That's BS, the american administration hasn't done much yet in Irak and be sure that when the american troops will leave, a civil war will start... He said that he wanted to rebuild Irak... That's BS, I watch documentaries every week about how people live in Irak and nothing has been done yet: the economy is at its lowliest levels, the people are poorer and poorer, nothing has been reconstructed (the building and roads haven't been rebuilt)... On the other hand, Bush has accelerated the production of oil (did I mention that he owns oil companies), all the contracts were passed with american oil companies and Bush has managed to remove the embargo that was set by the UN on Irak (just to have the oil exported)... Now don't tell me that he wasn't interested in the oil...

 

Do you also know that the US is the country that consumes the most oil? Nothing would work if you hadn't enough oil... I know that you have your own but it seems that you are keeping it for later (when there won't be anymore in the rest of the world -think 50 years from now)... Why wouldn't Bush be interested in getting more oil?

 

How can you be sure that Bush isn't a liar? Didn't he lie to the american people? Didn't he lie to the UN and to presidents from other countries to get support for his stupid war? Common, he perfectly knew there weren't MDW... I even remember when Collin Powell was shaking a small recipient in front of the UN council saying that it was anthrax to scare everyone and to say there as a real menace from Irak... That's BS, there weren't weapons (Irak didn't have the means to produce them) and even if it had some, Irak couldn't be a menace to the world...

 

When you say that Irak has MDW, that was a few years ago... Since then, many missiles have been destroyed and UN inspectors (in the late 90's) during their numerous investigations didn't find more dangerous weapons...

 

Do you like Bush that much as to support him in these boards? This plot thing with MDW being in Syria might be a possibilty but still is highly improbable... I am bored to explain that now but if you wish, we can continue this discussion...

[ramza]

I think the last President to be both popular and decent was Kennedy. We seem to get one or the other. I wish we could get someone like Tony Blair over in the states, or have Colin Powell run for office.

Man, you must be crazy! Tony blair is the an a******... He is the second most idiot leader of the occidental world, just after Bush... He lied as Bush lied... He is evil as Bush is evil as they are only care to lmake economical profits from the war instead of helping a destroyed country...

As of Powell, he sucks too... Whoever is affiliated to Bush sucks... and from what I have heard, one journalist had asked him (in private) if he wanted to become President of the US and Powell answered that such a thing would never be possible because of the color of his skin! This info came from a serious journalist! Are the US the home of democracy? I really doubt about that...

[Judge Hades]

That is why we need a major revision in government, both in structure and policy.

[LostStraw]

As of Powell, he sucks too... Whoever is affiliated to Bush sucks... and from what I have heard, one journalist had asked him (in private) if he wanted to become President of the US and Powell answered that such a thing would never be possible because of the color of his skin! This info came from a serious journalist! Are the US the home of democracy? I really doubt about that...

 

#1 America is not a true democracy.

 

#2 America being a fairly free country means racists get a vote too.

 

#3 You shouldn't argue so emotionaly, it doesn't do anything for the argument and only deters the point you are trying to make.

[ramza]

Iraqis are better off without Saddam. Period. Case closed.

You still don't get it, do you? That wass a very simplistic comment and I am surprised that it came from you... People still live after the war but do they live happily? hell no! Some are even poorer than before... The task of the US was to rebuild the country and restore democracy but they haven't done much yet and I doubt they will...

[EnderAndrew]

Bush has many policies that I don't care for. If I digressed into every policy in Bush's career I'd be arguing forever. My point is that why people may not like his policies, Bush didn't lie to bring this country into a war. I hate lies. And frankly there are more lies about Bush than lies spread by Bush.

 

And Clinton was asked to send peace-keepers into Serbia. We were asked to keep violence to a minimum, and UN orders were to not fire bullets if at possible. Clinton's response was to drop bombs.

 

You have doubts about Iraq. Fair enough. That's a catch-22. They're probably not ready. They probably need more time to establish a government and rebuild. They don't even have a police system yet. I expect riots, bombings and perhaps civil war to follow. Yet everyone is screaming for us to get out as soon as possible. We either stay and help, and get accused of making a puppet governement to steal their oil, or leave them to fall on their face. In fact you effectively damn us on both fronts.

 

You say no reconstruction has been done in Iraq. That's not true. Power, water, and such come first. Streets don't have street-lights. We're trying to assemble and train a police force out of nothing. We're putting in phone lines.

 

Yes oil lines are a priority because if Iraq is going to stand on it's own two feet, it needs to make money to take care of itself.

 

You accuse Bush of lying. No one knew 100% what the situation was in Iraq except for Saddam. The UN, other foreign intelligence communities, and Democrats all agreed that Iraq had WMD. Bush didn't lie.

 

I didn't vote for Bush. I voted for Nader as the lessor of all evils. I don't know if I'll vote for Bush in the upcoming elections. For the record, I hate his imigration policies, his stance on CAFTA, his stance on gay marriage, etc. There are things that he has done that I do support.

 

Kerry doesn't have a platform. He's comparing our economy of the Great Depression of the 20's which is ridiculous. He's made a complete 180 on statements he made before, and he is running on the "I'm not Bush" platform.

 

I might support Kerry if he stood for something. Everytime I've heard him speak, he is very negative, critical and says he would do everything differently. But he hasn't said how.

[Judge Hades]

Bottomline, going to war was not about WMDs. If he didn't lie, then he was incompetent and someone else was pulling the strings, mayhaps Cheney and his corporate interests. We are there for several reasons: oil, revenge, to finish his daddy's legacy, etc.

 

Iraq is a waste of American lives and American tax dollars, plain and simple. I say let them fall on their face if they can't do it for themselves. If a people cannot set aside their differences in order to form a union that will survive the test of time on their own, then they have no reason to be a part of civilized society. The US is not a nursemaid. We can hardly take care of ourselves let alone other countries.

 

I just want Bush out of office and Nader is not going to do it. Kerry has the best chance so my vote will go for him.

[ramza]

You have doubts about Iraq. Fair enough. That's a catch-22. They're probably not ready. They probably need more time to establish a government and rebuild. They don't even have a police system yet. I expect riots, bombings and perhaps civil war to follow. Yet everyone is screaming for us to get out as soon as possible. We either stay and help, and get accused of making a puppet governement to steal their oil, or leave them to fall on their face. In fact you effectively damn us on both fronts.

 

You say no reconstruction has been done in Iraq. That's not true. Power, water, and such come first. Streets don't have street-lights. We're trying to assemble and train a police force out of nothing. We're putting in phone lines.

 

Yes oil lines are a priority because if Iraq is going to stand on it's own two feet, it needs to make money to take care of itself.

You say that the events that happened on the 11th of september were a tragedy... I do agree with that but you have to see what happens on the other side... While I am totally against terrorism, there are a few reasons that explain why people from other countries (especially muslims) hate the US (and the occidental world) but those reasons doesn't excuse them for having killed innocent people... First of all, the worst ennemy of the Islamic world are the Jews and for some reason (I won't get into details) they have affiliated the US with the Jews, which explains the hartred. Moreover, the US didn't have a very good foreign policy during the last decades, many wars were waged, many innocents were killed (especially in third-world countries), the US makes profit out of everything, occidentals live in decent conditions (generally speaking), the US are implemented everywhere in the world making business, etc... The fact is that the Occidental world is progressing, but at what cost? Poor countries become poorer, noone cares about them nor about their people (think of everyone starving in Africa), the climate changes because we don't care about the environment (the desert and the hot weather are expanding in Africa), people get killed just for economic interests... Where is the justice in all that? Someone is responsible for all this suffering... Muslims are just desperate and think they have to bring justice themselves...

Anyway, that may be a poor excuse for hating the US but they need to find someone responsible and this automatically leads to the most powerful and richest countries... They suffer while we live better...

I remember watching an interview of a famous muslim religious leader in the UK (I can't recall his name) who was perdicting the future of Europe. He said: "Do you see all those people around me? Well, all this will change in the future! All women will be wearing headscarfs, all the people will be muslims, everyone will speak arabic...(and other stuff like that)"... This guy is crazy but that is what many hope to achieve by waging their religious war against the occidental world... This is sad but this is the way it is and we will have to leave with the threat of terrorism... Our parents lived during the "Cold War", we live during the "Terrorism War"...

 

It's true that the Us are in a complicated situation: they accuse them for invading Irak but they also ask them to keep their troops or else there will be a civil war... Well, it's still Bush's fault: if he hadn't waged that war, he wouldn't have been in that s*** right now...

 

You say that the US have helped rebuilding Irak... That's partially true... I aknowledge that they are doing whatever is possible and they have changed quite a few things compared to before... But the problem of security remains, Irakis are afraid for their lives... Not much has been restored yet and people still live in precarity (electricity for example gets down many times per day)... If the US was more concerned about helping other countries instead of extracting their resources or making commerce and profit, that would have been better... But that is the image people have of the US and I think it will be difficult changing it...