Games out of Europe

[Volourn]

This is funny. It's not so bad to want to conquer everyone because beeing bigoted enough to wiped out others because you think youa re betetr than them is the lowest from of evil? LOL Perhaps, one should ask why Japan wanted to conquer others. It's ebcause they thought they were sueprior. Sorry, but they were just as 'evil" as the Nazis. Afterall, not only did they support Germany in its war; it had its own dreams of conquest. Yeah, sooo innocent. Sorry, they are just as bad. Period.

 

Ellester wins here easily.

[Child of Flame]

I'm of the opinion that Hitler would in all probablility have won the war if he hadn't run all of his best scientists off (there were, for the most part JEWS!!! ). But don't be fooled, the Japanes had just as many nasty prison camps and did just as many nasty experiments on their prisoners. You just don't hear about it as much since they weren't as much of a 'problem' and they were more 'fair' with who they put in the gas chambers.

 

Hitler had some very, very advanced prototypes out, some that wouldn't look all that out of place with today's military aircraft. (I remember at least one that ran on a more primitive version of today's jet engines. ) But, they were never finished as he ran all of his scientists off to America and other allied countries.

[Drakron]

Japan did not had gas chambers, they did worst but they were not going after people because of their etnic groups but for other reasons.

 

Its unlike the Nazis that created a whole system to dispose of non arians, its perhaps the how the system was effiencient and inhuman that is so scary.

 

Japan reason to enter the war were similar to the reasons german entered WW I, they wanted their influence over the pacific, resources, markets and colonies.

 

And Servant of Eru you are very wrong on (at least) one thing ... Germany, England and the US had fighter jets around the end of the war and at least germany had a jet fighter proptotype before the war started, reason germany take so long to field their jet fighter (Me 262) was because hitler wanted it to be a dive bomber as well,.

 

A big issue with the Me 262 was it was very vunerable during landing and it was very easy to be shoot down by more convencional airplanes.

 

Also here is a little trivia, the japonese actualy had Me 262 at the end of the war since a U boat managed to deliver the plans and parts (the U boat that was to deliver the rest was sunk) and they were able to create a few but they were put in tunnels to be used during the invasion ... the nukes come and they were never used.

[EnderAndrew]

Both of you also seem to believe the entirely of the war involved Germany, and discount Japan's role.

[Drakron]

Well they could but depening of many factors.

 

If the US was able with nuclear weapons to make Japan surrender without having to land in Japan so could Hitler, he had the V rocket research that sould have given him ICBM tecnology, of course that depening on the war not starting in 1939 but later, such as 1945-7.

 

I do not think the US are so brave to after having 3 or 4 major cities leveled up they sould not surrender, a thing about the US is they never actually had to fight in their own homes .

 

And even if they did stand to the end it would be the end, with Hitler in control over europe he could simply create a fleet to take over what was left.

 

Of course there are many "if" and that is the problem with history, we need to remenber Roosevelt had a 3rd term because of war, if there was no war who would be in the White House?

 

Same with England and France ... heck Stalin was doing a fine job of destroying the Soviet Army before Hitler invaded.

[EnderAndrew]

That's preposterous.

 

First off, we had nukes and I've never heard anything to suggest that Germany was anywhere close in the 40's to developing an ICBM. Germany had a lot of the right ideas, but didn't put them together. And even if Germany was going to develop an ICBM late, the US would have had it sooner. If war escalated to that level, Germany would have gone first.

 

You also fail to recall that the firebombing of Dresden was actually worse than the nukes we dropped on Japan. We bombed the hell out of Germany. They tried to take the war to the US, and failed. It's not that they didn't want to, as the U-Boats demonstrate.

[Drakron]

No, its not.

 

The V2 was a early ICBM and it was a question in giving it a bigger range, the US had almost nothing in rocket research and will I remind of who Wernher Maximillian Magnus von Braun was ?

 

As for nukes the US likes to forget there was more that US scientists behind the Manhatten program and the fact Germany was very close to build a reactor near the end, without those scientists and research done outside the US we can wonder if the US would ba able to finish it and let not forget that the war in Europe ended before the Manhatten project was completed.

 

And I dont fail to reacall the criminal action of firebombing of Dresden that was a DELIBERATE ATTACK ON GERMAN CIVILIAN POPULATION, I can point out the attacks on japonese cities were far worst due to the materials involved (wood and paper) and their rather inefective fire brigades.

 

And shut up on the U-Boats, U-Boats commander simply did not wanted to shell US cities and even taken messures to not accidently hit anything except their ragets, there was a nice old game from Sierra called U boat that had interviews with former U boat commanders and one of the interviews the captain said he put the U boat in the light so to NOT hit civillians.

 

That captured U boat was either simply waiting for ships before they could join a convoy or assisting some german spy, pretty standart at that time.

[EnderAndrew]

German had some of the top notch scientists in the world. And for all their research, they didn't build the bomb. And when they discovered fission, they didn't put it to use sooner. Germany often didn't realize the breakthroughs they made during that era.

 

And Dresden wasn't entirely a civilian area, but yes, many civilians died. And for the nukes, I could argue that they were humane despite the number of civilian deaths. The Emperor declared that Japan would fight until the last man died. And they sure intended to. We scared them into surrender rather than drop the bomb on Tokyo.

 

Regardless, even with rocket technology, Germany didn't build the bomb. And there would have been conflict between Stalin and Hitler regardless of whether or not Hitler tried to invade the US.

 

The notion that Germany would have invaded and conquered the US is still preposterous.

[Drakron]

No, its not.

 

You are so wrong, germany persued heavy water research during the whole war so I wonder WHY IF NOT FOR A ATOMIC PROJECT.

 

They knew but really being bombed makes projects go slower.

 

As for Dressen DO NOT BE ABSURD, they delibered attacked the civilian population and the objective of that mission was to cause as much civilian dead and damage.

 

As for the Emperor, he surrendered ... the military were running Japan and not him, in fact some officers tried to stop the emperor surrender speech to the nation.

 

As for Hitler and Stalin ... well in order to reach Germany Stalin had to invade Poland with makes things a whole new ball game so Hitler was safe and as for Stalin he ordered his troops to NOT attack the Germans during the inicial german attack because he did not belived that Hitler would attack him.

 

Still does not change the fact I am talking about WW II starting in the mid/late 1940

[EnderAndrew]

Your argument on Germany starting WWII in the late 40's and winning is quite flawed.

 

Germany was in a horrible depression, and had no military up until the beginning of WWI. They were crippled by the Treaty of Versailles, which was largely their motivation for hatred.

 

The poor economy would have meant they would have no money for weapons research. The fact that they developed so much technology is due to the fact that they were already mobilizing and taking part in warfare.

 

Germany discovered heavy water accidentally, and had no clue how powerful it was. They were pursuing atomic research, true, but they also overlooked it's impact as a biological weapon. When they discovered fission, England had to point out how valuable it was.

 

Not to mention that Germany overlooked Einstein as a lesser scientist and had him working on grenades. That was brilliant.

[Nur Ab Sal]

Atom bomb was invented by european scientists who worked in the USA...so this not your achievement. Today also most of America's scientists are foreigners who came attracted by work conditions, not natives. And if you say that German economy was in bad condition that you don't know anything. US economy was in bad condition despite Roosevelt's efforts. Germany wasn't in worse condition than England, France, USA or Japan.

 

Bombing Dresden showed only that Americans didn't change since Indian Genocide

and put you on the same level that was Germany - level of mindless, vengeful barbarians.

[EnderAndrew]

Hey, I brought up Dresden. I am fully aware of how horrific it is.

 

And The United States of America is a nation of foreigners. Other than the Native Americans, we're all originally foreigners. They came to this country, and became Americans. There by, their inventions are American inventions.

[Nur Ab Sal]

Yes but there is standard of anglosaxon culture. And all those indian programmers

and whoever come to your fatherland these days, will always stay away from America's original culture. Isn't USA falling into balkanization these days? Besides

if someone lives for 40 years in Germany and suddenly comes to work on american university this not makes him American becouse he still considers himself german. Buying foreign mind might make an illusion of America's intellectual absolute domination but roots of it are in countries that produced and educated all these scientists that come to USA.

[EnderAndrew]

If they came to this country to become American, they're American.

 

And all Americans are American, not just Anglo-Americans. I work with an Indian girl in IT. She's Hindu, and speaks with a thick accent. But she is living in the states, and considers herself American. So, she's American in my eyes.

[Nur Ab Sal]

Many come to work on contract. A plenty of Europeans work in arab countries but they don't consider themselves Arabs...

Edited October 10, 2005 by Nur Ab Sal

[EnderAndrew]

That's why I said if they come to America to become Americans, I consider them Americans. Foreign citizens visiting the country aren't Americans.

[Nur Ab Sal]

OK I get it.

[Ellester]

That's why I said if they come to America to become Americans, I consider them Americans. Foreign citizens visiting the country aren't Americans.

I

[Volourn]

Of course they do. That's what bigotry is all about. Stereotyping others is what people like that do.

[Nameless One]

Does everyone think that Americans are all white guys from Texas like Bush?

he is way to slim for that job...on the other hand he appears uneducated and he wears cowboy hats...so the answer is: kind of yes...but fatter

[Ellester]

Does everyone think that Americans are all white guys from Texas like Bush?

he is way to slim for that job...on the other hand he appears uneducated and he wears cowboy hats...so the answer is: kind of yes...but fatter

well, I will agree we have plenty of fat people. )

[Nur Ab Sal]

Americans are nation of conquerors. They consider themselves superior and wonderful to much older nations (like China) although they took everything from Eurasia from nations which still exist and don't love USA much (like France). This is the stereotype I can get when I watch hollywood craps like Sum of all Fears (or read racist anti-yellow sh..t like Bear and the Dragon)

 

But I guess that this is just a stereotype made by the frustrated elite. Simple folks

from Iowa must be the same as simple folks from Burgundy or Wirtemberg.

[~Di]

I don't really believe that Americans did any sacrifice during WWII in Europe...

all you did was earning money on others' miserable cause thanks to this war you

defeated Great Depression and US economy moved from dead point. This 3 million Americans entered fight in last phase of war (1944) and faced weak german forces

The outcome of this war was decided on the eastern front and Russians are real heroes of WWII not some marines who were chewing gum and watched donald duck. This is just silly how those "western allies" exaggerate their small role. The power of the wehrmacht was broken by Red Army in a series of giant battles that required great heroism and sacrifice. Other war theatres weren't important at all. Eastern Front is in fact WWII. You say that it isn't, you lie. Americans just came and stole part of others' victory. Not to mention that Red Army destroyed "unbeatable" Japs in two weeks while you couldn't beat them for 3 years and only your nuke change their mind about surrender...

Yeah. Only 400,000 Americans died in WW2. No sacrifice at all.

 

What a bigoted, mean-spirited post that was. You should be ashamed of yourself.

[Volourn]

Nur, have you looked in the mirror lately?

[Grandpa]

I would hope that Nur would have openned his mind a little and listened to what people have been saying here. All he wants to do its be "right". Unfortunately, his point of view sounds to be skewed with some sort of inherent bias towards Americans for whatever the reason. Maybe an American tourist to his country once stole his bicycle?

 

The current "superpower" is always hated by theglobal masses, and nothing anyone from that nation can do to convince those haters otherwise. The US is despised because it is currently the most powerful nation in the world. A little more than 100 years ago it was Britain and France (collectively), prior to that is was France alone, prior still, England, and we can continue going back to ancient Macedonia and Babylon, but what's the point? Narrow minded people will refuse to look.

 

What has the US really done to peeve so many citizens of so many countries? When our borders were sealed in the late 1800's and again in the early 1900's, and trade was all but cut off, people complained that the US wasn't sharing it's wealth. Now the US spends more money abroad than almost every other nation combined (look up the stats on that), including paying 40% of the UN budget, and still the US is hated. Why? We're bigger and stronger than you and that scares people. Forget how benevolent the US has been. I know people like Nur have. And forget that not everyone in the US is a corporate executive with a hand in the till of the government and armed forces. 99.999% of us are nothing but common citizens striving to make a living in the place where we were born, just like everyone else. Where was I born? Trenton NJ. Did I have a choice? No. Did Nur have a choice where he was born? No. But no matter where we were born and live, we all want the same things from life. We just do it with our particular cultural tendancies and in our native languages. I want to make sure my kids get a good education, have food and clothing, etc etc. Just like someone from Russia, someone from France, someone from Cambodia, or someone from Indonesia.

 

So, instead of feuling Nur (et-al) and catering to his ingnorant logic and half-heartedly researched "facts", just ignore him. He will, like so many other, find that no one cares to hear it any longer, and drop it. When people like Nur (and I use Nur only as an example because he has been so prolific) start spewing their hate, ignore them and continue with the topic of the thread. Eventually they will either go away or back off the insults.

 

And thats the last I have to say on that topic in this forum.