BruceVC Posted September 13 Share Posted September 13 1 hour ago, Malcador said: Seems like same old. News was characterized it as "concerning" though. Not sure why, would be a glorious and easy victory for NATO. What do you think the NATO military objective would be in a war with Russia? "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcador Posted September 13 Author Share Posted September 13 1 minute ago, BruceVC said: What do you think the NATO military objective would be in a war with Russia? As usual, regime change. 1 Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceVC Posted September 13 Share Posted September 13 1 minute ago, Malcador said: As usual, regime change. I doubt that would be the definition of victory? I have no doubt NATO would defeat the Russian military but forcing Putin to somehow step down is unlikely 1 "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcador Posted September 13 Author Share Posted September 13 50 minutes ago, BruceVC said: I doubt that would be the definition of victory? I have no doubt NATO would defeat the Russian military but forcing Putin to somehow step down is unlikely Well NATO's idea of victory and what victory is (cough, Libya, Afghanistan) don't have to mesh. But hard to see what else it'd be in a NATO - Russia war. Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoraptor Posted September 13 Share Posted September 13 As always, anyone wondering about Russia's response to anything should ask themselves what their side's response would be in the same situation. Russia supplying and programming long range missiles and providing intelligence to the Taliban/ Iran/ Iraq/ Syria/ DPRK to target the west? The only difference would be that we'd convince ourselves that our invasion was justified, so any retaliation against us was escalatory and unjustified. Oh wait, that isn't really a difference, is it. And that isn't really even a rhetorical question. Russia invading NATO? Well, we all know what the plan was when it was the USSR. A nice series of radioactive craters across the Fulda Gap. But surely the Russians wouldn't nuke themselves just to take our NATO troops? Of course they would- though as with the NATO plan they wouldn't just be nuking themselves. Anything else is Magical Thinking. After all, what else are nukes for except to make the cost of an invasion prohibitive. Not really even a rhetorical question again there. Realistically, the only reason NATO would not be seeking regime change in the current conflict is that the alternatives are worse than Putin or so obviously unpopular/ seen as Quislings as to be impossible to install without the invasion that can't happen because of the nukes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadySands Posted September 13 Share Posted September 13 Does that mean Ukraine can also say they are directly at war with Iran and North Korea and whoever else gave them arms and munitions for their invasion? Russia is a joke but a joke with nukes so... 1 Free games updated 3/4/21 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcador Posted September 13 Author Share Posted September 13 11 minutes ago, ShadySands said: Does that mean Ukraine can also say they are directly at war with Iran and North Korea and whoever else gave them arms and munitions for their invasion? Russia is a joke but a joke with nukes so... If I recall Ukraine did threaten Iran if they sent missiles. Although that might have been a Poland-esque threat that the US would do something. 1 Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadySands Posted September 13 Share Posted September 13 Sad thing is that there's probably be some John Bolton types that would totally eat up that my dad can beat up your dad stuff if the other dad is Iran or North Korea. Free games updated 3/4/21 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcador Posted September 13 Author Share Posted September 13 13 minutes ago, ShadySands said: Sad thing is that there's probably be some John Bolton types that would totally eat up that my dad can beat up your dad stuff if the other dad is Iran or North Korea. Pretty much, some "discussions" on the war are hilarious in how war crazy some people can be. The US should subjugate Iran, DPRK, shoot down Russian aircraft near allied airspace cause "FAFO". Basically low brow version of people that seriously refer to "rules based international order" with a straight face. Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoraptor Posted September 13 Share Posted September 13 1 hour ago, ShadySands said: Does that mean Ukraine can also say they are directly at war with Iran and North Korea and whoever else gave them arms and munitions for their invasion? Ukraine can certainly say that, though the situations are not equivalent*. Obviously that would also be a double edged sword for the west, since if that's an act of war supplying Abrams/ Leos/ Challies etc is as well. That would be fine for Ukraine though, since their only path to victory is escalatory and getting NATO directly involved. *Russia will be getting its satellite and AWACS type intelligence from Russia not Iran or DPRK, and it won't be Koreans or Iranians inputting target info or doing the maintenance as, to be blunt, the systems supplied are not very advanced- and mostly evolutions of soviet systems anyway. They're just supplying the systems, and that is long established to not be a direct act of war. Ukraine has neither satellites nor AWACS, they are getting that from NATO sources and per the Germans targeting info for Storm Shadow/SCALP is entered by Brits/ French (hence why won't send Taurus, as they don't want anyone on the ground) and the tech is wholly new to them. Now, you can argue that targeting occupied territories is fine, since that's NATO soldiers hitting Ukrainian territory from Ukrainian territory; but once they start being used on targets in Russia it is NATO targeting Russia by any reasonable definition of the term. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorth Posted September 14 Share Posted September 14 7 hours ago, Malcador said: If I recall Ukraine did threaten Iran if they sent missiles. Although that might have been a Poland-esque threat that the US would do something. You could argue Iran already struck preemptively against Ukrainian transport capacity... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine_International_Airlines_Flight_752 “He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice.” - Albert Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceVC Posted September 14 Share Posted September 14 9 hours ago, Zoraptor said: Ukraine can certainly say that, though the situations are not equivalent*. Obviously that would also be a double edged sword for the west, since if that's an act of war supplying Abrams/ Leos/ Challies etc is as well. That would be fine for Ukraine though, since their only path to victory is escalatory and getting NATO directly involved. *Russia will be getting its satellite and AWACS type intelligence from Russia not Iran or DPRK, and it won't be Koreans or Iranians inputting target info or doing the maintenance as, to be blunt, the systems supplied are not very advanced- and mostly evolutions of soviet systems anyway. They're just supplying the systems, and that is long established to not be a direct act of war. Ukraine has neither satellites nor AWACS, they are getting that from NATO sources and per the Germans targeting info for Storm Shadow/SCALP is entered by Brits/ French (hence why won't send Taurus, as they don't want anyone on the ground) and the tech is wholly new to them. Now, you can argue that targeting occupied territories is fine, since that's NATO soldiers hitting Ukrainian territory from Ukrainian territory; but once they start being used on targets in Russia it is NATO targeting Russia by any reasonable definition of the term. Im not sure I understand your point. If it was Ukrainians operating the missiles then its not act of war? Iran and NK are supplying missiles to Russia which are being used to attack Ukraine sovereign territory but these missiles are operated by Russians and Ukraine has not said "we now at war with Iran and NK" So that logic would apply to Ukraine, NATO could supply long range missiles to Ukraine but if they operate them then its just part of the normal war between Russia and Ukraine? Another inconsistency exposed with Russian propaganda that Vatniks have peddled since the war started is "Russia is actually at war with NATO " but Putin is only now suggesting NATO would be at war with Russia if it gives permission. Of course no serious analyst would ever suggest this war is anything but a war between Russia and Ukraine with various countries supplying military aid to both sides https://www.cbsnews.com/news/putin-nato-ukraine-war-us-long-range-missiles/ " Russian President Vladimir Putin warned Thursday that a decision by the U.S. or its NATO allies to allow Ukraine to use Western-supplied long-range missiles to hit targets deep inside Russia would be viewed as NATO's direct participation in the war, which he said would significantly change "the very nature of the conflict." 1 1 "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kanisatha Posted September 14 Share Posted September 14 Hey, I myself am quite okay with Putin starting a war with us or NATO, as I've said previously. Not because I want a war by any stretch, but because I am someone who believes that sometimes war is sadly necessary to stand/push back against a greater evil. I was merely surprised this story had not come up for discussion here. But I've enjoyed reading through all of your responses so far. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoraptor Posted September 14 Share Posted September 14 12 hours ago, BruceVC said: Im not sure I understand your point. If it was Ukrainians operating the missiles then its not act of war? They aren't being operated wholly by Ukraine. Which is fine*, if you can argue that they're only being operated in de jure Ukraine but becomes an act of war if they are used in what everybody accepts as being Russia proper. Pretty simple really. *for a certain definition of fine, eg you cannot take your specialists being targeted as an act of war either- and that has definitely happened multiple times. And in the more general sense, if the situation was reversed NATO would at minimum complain as vociferously as Russia about them supplying weapons to their enemies; and would definitively go the Article 5 route if Russian operated missiles hit their territory, even if it were Iranians or whoever primarily operating them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceVC Posted September 15 Share Posted September 15 A really strange Russian army recruitment advert, strange for a country that discriminates against LGBT to recognize it as a reality within Russia "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceVC Posted September 15 Share Posted September 15 https://euromaidanpress.com/2024/09/14/frontline-report-russian-forces-finally-sacrifice-pokrovsk-offensive-to-defend-kursk/ If true this is another and clear reason why the Kursk offensive was implemented and it made sense Its now taking Russians off the frontline "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcador Posted September 15 Author Share Posted September 15 Still reading reports of gains in the south though, slow as they are. Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoraptor Posted September 15 Share Posted September 15 Compared to pre Avdiivka the Russians are still gaining at twice the daily rate- and still taking 10k+ towns. Just not around Pokrovsk any more. Which is more because of Ukraine shifting forces (back) there than Russia moving theirs. It's also been Russian tactics to allow Ukraine to stabilise an area by transferring troops and instead attack the areas the troops have come from. Hence the new gains around Vuhledar, which lost a long term defender brigade to Pokrovsk. Same thing happened in Avdiivka too before it fell. As might be expected from Euromaidanpress Bruce's article is hopelessly optimistic. Even pro UA sources like liveuamap have Russian forces close to cutting off the Ukrainians near Korenovo, now. Ukraine lost a lot of their gains in Kursk due to rotating out their good formations for conscripts/ territorial brigades and it requires a fairly large dollop of positive thinking to think the conscripts are there to win where the elite troops failed. The supposed number of Russian soldiers along the border has actually dropped (!) by their estimates and their evidence for large scale transfers consists of 'elements' of two brigades. Even at full strength that's nowhere near 30k- and it's unlikely that the 1st Sloviansk Brigade is there in any meaningful way, at all, as it's a specifically- and OG- DPR formation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lexx Posted September 18 Share Posted September 18 Some huge munitions depot explosion. Looks crazy. https://x.com/IAPonomarenko/status/1836262331522650442/video/2 3 "only when you no-life you can exist forever, because what does not live cannot die." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcador Posted September 18 Author Share Posted September 18 Maybe their new jet drone? Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceVC Posted September 22 Share Posted September 22 https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/eu-provide-ukraine-with-loan-worth-up-35-bln-euros-von-der-leyen-2024-09-20/ The EU will be providing Ukraine with $40 billion, this money will be used in the war and with other expenses " We will spend the money, these 35 billion, primarily on energy, on defence, as well as on bomb shelters for children in schools, nurseries and universities - this is a big deficit for us," Zelenskiy said in front of the Ukrainian and EU flags. "And on weapons, primarily those produced domestically, drones, missiles. Today, our long-range drones strike the enemy and they are cheaper than those (made by) our partners." Whats also interesting about this money is some of it will be the interest earned from the Russian frozen assets, so you use the Russian money to help Ukraine. And that makes sense on every level. You dont utilize the Russian sanctioned assets because then its gone, just its earned interest. Its a creative way of funding Ukraine " She said on Thursday that the sum of 160 million euros from the proceeds of frozen Russian assets would be allocated to meet Ukraine's urgent humanitarian needs for this winter." 1 1 "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mamoulian War Posted September 22 Share Posted September 22 On 9/18/2024 at 12:38 PM, Lexx said: Some huge munitions depot explosion. Looks crazy. https://x.com/IAPonomarenko/status/1836262331522650442/video/2 A story behind it. On 9/18/2024 at 1:38 PM, Malcador said: Maybe their new jet drone? not really, just corruption during the procurement of the materials used to build the site. “Unexpectedly” 2 Sent from my Stone Tablet, using Chisel-a-Talk 2000BC. My youtube channel: MamoulianFH Latest Let's Play Tales of Arise (completed) Latest Bossfight Compilation Dark Souls Remastered - New Game (completed) Let's Play/AAR Europa Universalis 1: Austria Grand Campaign (completed) Let's Play/AAR Europa Universalis 2: Xhosa Grand Campaign (completed) My PS Platinums and 100% - 29 games so far (my PSN profile) 1) God of War III - PS3 - 24+ hours 2) Final Fantasy XIII - PS3 - 130+ hours 3) White Knight Chronicles International Edition - PS3 - 525+ hours 4) Hyperdimension Neptunia - PS3 - 80+ hours 5) Final Fantasy XIII-2 - PS3 - 200+ hours 6) Tales of Xillia - PS3 - 135+ hours 7) Hyperdimension Neptunia mk2 - PS3 - 152+ hours 8.) Grand Turismo 6 - PS3 - 81+ hours (including Senna Master DLC) 9) Demon's Souls - PS3 - 197+ hours 10) Tales of Graces f - PS3 - 337+ hours 11) Star Ocean: The Last Hope International - PS3 - 750+ hours 12) Lightning Returns: Final Fantasy XIII - PS3 - 127+ hours 13) Soulcalibur V - PS3 - 73+ hours 14) Gran Turismo 5 - PS3 - 600+ hours 15) Tales of Xillia 2 - PS3 - 302+ hours 16) Mortal Kombat XL - PS4 - 95+ hours 17) Project CARS Game of the Year Edition - PS4 - 120+ hours 18) Dark Souls - PS3 - 197+ hours 19) Hyperdimension Neptunia Victory - PS3 - 238+ hours 20) Final Fantasy Type-0 - PS4 - 58+ hours 21) Journey - PS4 - 9+ hours 22) Dark Souls II - PS3 - 210+ hours 23) Fairy Fencer F - PS3 - 215+ hours 24) Megadimension Neptunia VII - PS4 - 160 hours 25) Super Neptunia RPG - PS4 - 44+ hours 26) Journey - PS3 - 22+ hours 27) Final Fantasy XV - PS4 - 263+ hours (including all DLCs) 28) Tales of Arise - PS4 - 111+ hours 29) Dark Souls: Remastered - PS4 - 121+ hours Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lexx Posted September 22 Share Posted September 22 Man, I'm really starting to love corruption. 1 1 "only when you no-life you can exist forever, because what does not live cannot die." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcador Posted September 25 Author Share Posted September 25 https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/zelenskyy-russia-chinese-satellites-photograph-nuclear-plants-ahead/story?id=113943075 Skeptical of this, but we're back to fears of poisoning Europe with radiation as a concern. Interested to see what Zelensky's victory plan is, probably will be aspirational stuff. Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gfted1 Posted September 25 Share Posted September 25 Satellite Images Show Massive Devastation At Russian Ammo Storage Sites Struck By Ukrainian Drones (twz.com) 1 "I'm your biggest fan, Ill follow you until you love me, Papa" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now