Gaza - conflict, war, land, water rights, bad colonional legacies...

[Malcador]

3 hours ago, melkathi said:

The important news out of Gaza according to Google Discover:

https://m.jpost.com/judaism/article-772218

 

Just to get this discussion on track again.

You all have lost sight of what truly matters.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/netanyahu-israel-will-have-overall-security-responsibility-for-gaza-indefinitely-after-war/

I'm sure Biden will yank on the leash soon.

[melkathi]

Democrats are hemorrhaging votes over this, so he has to

[Zoraptor]

Netanyahu's only way to stay out of jail is to keep things going and that is far more important than anything Biden says. Doesn't seem likely Biden would actually do anything in response, certainly not things like allowing a UNSC resolution through with any teeth, nor cancelling weapon shipments. They've been ignoring calls from the US for 'humanitarian pauses' (or whatever the Orwellian phrase is) for weeks now and the US still runs interference at the UN and sends Blinken around to be humiliated.

As soon as the crisis ends Bibi will be expected to resign, even if he doesn't as soon as there is an election he'll lose. That's why he looks like a deflated balloon version of himself, he's completely borked his legacy and there will be a decent number of prior supporters who were fine with the corruption but will now be thinking he should be in jail for the security failings. Even his attempts to shift the blame have backfired since he was forced to apologise for trying to blame the army and intelligence services for the initial attack.

[xzar_monty]

8 minutes ago, Zoraptor said:

Doesn't seem likely Biden would actually do anything in response

Sorry to comment upon such a minor detail, but one's faith in American presidents' likelihood of actually doing anything was somewhat shaken by Obama pointedly drawing a red line in Syria and then just ignoring when it was crossed. (Well, there was very little to cheer about in the whole Obama presidency, though you've gotta say the guy was not altogether useless in the rhetoric department, which is something a creature of language like me will tend to note.)

[Malcador]

20 hours ago, melkathi said:

Democrats are hemorrhaging votes over this, so he has to

Maybe he'll bet they'll forget by November 2024 or just be too scared of Trump.

[BruceVC]

18 hours ago, xzar_monty said:

Sorry to comment upon such a minor detail, but one's faith in American presidents' likelihood of actually doing anything was somewhat shaken by Obama pointedly drawing a red line in Syria and then just ignoring when it was crossed. (Well, there was very little to cheer about in the whole Obama presidency, though you've gotta say the guy was not altogether useless in the rhetoric department, which is something a creature of language like me will tend to note.)

No offense Monty but suggesting that the Obama presidency was rhetorical and did nothing tells me you dont know much about the Obama presidency. He was elected just as  the 2008 financial crisis  started  and the decisions he made  helped steer the world from a complete  economic collapse.  He also got the  US out of Iraq which was very different to the Cheney " we could be in Iraq forever ". He  achieved the Iranian nuclear  deal which at the  time was the best solution even though the Iranian hardliners  didnt honor the spirit of  the deal and continued to destabilize parts  of the ME 

Here is a list  of some of his achievements, of course some of his policies failed and he could have done certain things better  like all presidents. But for me the main metric if he was    good president was  his approval rating which is what Americans think at the end, that should always be  used as   the most important factor.  And he achieved  a  63% in a retrospective poll which is done a few years after a presidency. 

https://www.tdjakes.com/posts/10-remarkable-achievements-of-barack-obama-s-presidency

https://news.gallup.com/poll/226994/obama-first-retrospective-job-approval-rating.aspx

 

 

[Malcador]

https://apnews.com/article/israel-gaza-humanitarian-pauses-b8fc613ffd8b9351c0dc37b90b6e10dd

Well that's something.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

On 11/8/2023 at 11:10 AM, melkathi said:

Democrats are hemorrhaging votes over this, so he has to

Eh, the dems are infamous for staking out positions unpopular with their base (opposition to public health care is the best example) and alternating between just kind of going "look at how bad those guys are" or punching left. I think Biden and most of dem leadership will go to their graves defending or downplaying supporting Israel's slaughter of Gaza, no matter the political costs. And I do very much think that this cost them their next big election, when the people who'd normally grudgingly vote for you start calling you "Genocide Joe" that's not good for you.

22 hours ago, Malcador said:

https://apnews.com/article/israel-gaza-humanitarian-pauses-b8fc613ffd8b9351c0dc37b90b6e10dd

Well that's something.

Drop of water in a drought.

[Malcador]

https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-photographers-attack-200be1ba47361f1c1fc113cdaeb65d04

"The report by the group HonestReporting, however, had serious ramifications at a time of war.  It led two Israeli politicians to suggest the journalists be killed. Several of the world’s biggest news organizations — CNN, The New York Times, The Associated Press and Reuters — issued statements Thursday denying they knew about the attack ahead of time."

The name alone should have set off alarms

[HoonDing]

Imagine making Ariel Sharon look like Gandhi

[Zoraptor]

Hasbara gonna hasbara.

Favourite bit of media manipulation: "from the river to the sea.." is antisemitic because it implies a Palestinian ethnostate and forced deportation of the Jewish population, which is bad. Also, it's used by Hamas who are terrorists, so anyone who uses it is a terrorist!

Except, presumably Likud and the whacky Eretz Israel types who use the phrase all the time- due to its biblical origin in Deuteronomy. Indeed, it's literally in Likud's founding charter from 14 years before Hamas was even founded ("from the river to the sea there will be only Israeli sovereignty"). I'm sure that is Different though, for Reasons.

[BruceVC]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/10/pro-palestine-march-will-be-one-of-uks-biggest-ever-protests-organisers-predict

I sincerely hope the Palestinian march in London today is peaceful but  I doubt it.  Rishi Sunak was right when said its  provocative and disrespectful because  today is Armistice  Day.  

Why not arrange the protest tomorrow, why must it  be  today?

 

 

[Malcador]

5 hours ago, BruceVC said:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/10/pro-palestine-march-will-be-one-of-uks-biggest-ever-protests-organisers-predict

I sincerely hope the Palestinian march in London today is peaceful but  I doubt it.  Rishi Sunak was right when said its  provocative and disrespectful because  today is Armistice  Day.  

Why not arrange the protest tomorrow, why must it  be  today?

 

 

What's the problem with it being today? Would think Armistice Day would be an anti war day.

Here it's a wannabe US style military wankfest though.

[BruceVC]

34 minutes ago, Malcador said:

What's the problem with it being today? Would think Armistice Day would be an anti war day.

Here it's a wannabe US style military wankfest though.

No its not  a US military wankfest, its about recognizing the ultimate sacrifice that thousands of UK people made in defense of their  country that ironically gives people  the right  to protest

And they could have arranged  the  protest  on any other day

[Malcador]

2 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

No its not  a US military wankfest, its about recognizing the ultimate sacrifice that thousands of UK people made in defense of their  country that ironically gives people  the right  to protest

And they could have arranged  the  protest  on any other day

I said here, not in the UK.  Probably is the same bit of empty theater, rattle on about our glorious dead, love veterans for 20-30 minutes then move on. Or treat the poppy like some loyalty badge. 

But protesting today is fine, as long as like every other protest, you're protesting rather than just wrecking things.  So far seems ok, they (gasp) covered a cenotaph with a Palestine flag.  A lot of counter protesters being arrested, 92 so far?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-67390343

In stuff more important than disrespecting a day :

 

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/the-extreme-ambitions-of-west-bank-settlers

God damn, this lady is ****ing evil.

[Zoraptor]

Got to give Biden credit, his diplomacy has managed to unite the arab and muslim world and get Bashar al Assad, Erdogan, MbS and Raisi into the same photo, in Riyadh, something his predecessors singularly failed at.

OK, so he's got them talking about how bad his foreign policy is, but still, he's got them talking and that's a start! MbS and Raisi are practically standing next to each other too.

[BruceVC]

12 hours ago, Zoraptor said:

Got to give Biden credit, his diplomacy has managed to unite the arab and muslim world and get Bashar al Assad, Erdogan, MbS and Raisi into the same photo, in Riyadh, something his predecessors singularly failed at.

OK, so he's got them talking about how bad his foreign policy is, but still, he's got them talking and that's a start! MbS and Raisi are practically standing next to each other too.

But dont you love how  the ICC suddenly becomes  credible and important when another country is committing war crimes

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/international/world-news/arab-and-muslim-leaders-demand-immediate-end-to-gaza-war/articleshow/105160746.cms  and to  quote from this link

"  The extraordinary joint Islamic-Arab summit in Riyadh urged the International Criminal Court to investigate "war crimes and crimes against humanity that Israel is committing" in the Palestinian territories, according to a final communique " 
 

Saudi Arabia and Iran were responsible  for prolonging the Yemen war,  I dont remember much ICC intervention from the ME during that  conflict ?

The constand and expected  selective global outrage because of  war crimes never ceases to  surprise me 

 

[Malcador]

Hah, misread Bibi's statement and thought he meant Palestinian return, not the Palestinian Authority's return.

https://www.axios.com/2023/11/11/gaza-palestinian-authority-control-netanyahu-hamas-war

[BruceVC]

 

I really recommend   everyone watches this, its powerful and evocative and its not  Israeli propaganda. He specifically mentions Israel has a  moral responsibility around how it responds but he correctly  explains how the Holocaust has a huge influence on how Israel responds to conflict

 

@xzar_monty @Gorth @Lexx

I think  you will  find this  particularly interesting 

 

 

[xzar_monty]

1 hour ago, BruceVC said:

I really recommend   everyone watches this, its powerful and evocative and its not  Israeli propaganda. He specifically mentions Israel has a  moral responsibility around how it responds but he correctly  explains how the Holocaust has a huge influence on how Israel responds to conflict

I would just like to point out that Israel has been deliberately attacking civilian targets and murdering people -- children very much included -- in proportionately far greater numbers and much more effectively than Russia ever has during its war with Ukraine. After that, I'm extremely unlikely to be persuaded by a speech, even if it's a really good one.

Words, when compared to actions, mean almost nothing.

[Malcador]

I am sure they'll find more Mein Kampfs, thus everything they do is justified to stop the Second Holocaust

[HoonDing]

Never go full Dirlewanger.

[Malcador]

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israeli-minister-calls-voluntary-emigration-gazans-2023-11-14/

"voluntary emigration"

 

[Zoraptor]

4 hours ago, Malcador said:

I am sure they'll find more Mein Kampfs, thus everything they do is justified to stop the Second Holocaust

The 'funnier' one is their offer of fuel to Al Shifa. So obviously done solely so they could say they'd offered and been refused, and have it reported they had.

300L, enough to run a generator for half an hour and pick up only. To put it in perspective, the fuel capacity of a single Merkava tank is... 1400L. So they offered enough fuel to maybe turn off the low fuel light on a tank for a hospital with 700 beds and maybe twenty time the number of people there.

Also the calendar/ planning document found under Al Rantisi (strangely enough, unverifiable, since Israel managed to cut off every geolocatable feature in their proof video) which consists of... dates, with the day of the week. It's like they think no one can read arabic or know what 'Monday' looks like in arabic script. One in the eye  for the people who thought the laughable 'Hamas' intercept from the hit on Ah Ahli couldn't be fake because Israel wouldn't be that incompetent. They definitely would, because a lot of people will simply accept horse manure as caviar if Regev or Hagari tells them so.

Edited November 14, 2023 by Zoraptor