Gaza - conflict, war, land, water rights, bad colonional legacies...

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

1 hour ago, uuuhhii said:

what is the lesson here

That international law only applies to Russia.

[Gromnir]

am not sure if people are being purposeful disingenuous. yeah, am getting why israel is withholding water and power from civilian populations, but doing so is clear violating international laws. bad. however, comparing russia's invasion o' ukraine and their resulting and ongoing campaign o' murder, looting, raping and targeting the civilian population to israel's efforts in gaza is so not analogous.

when hamas attacked civilian populations in israel on october 7, violating islamic law and premeditated engaging in acts so repugnant and vile that any decent person should be revolted, were they attempting to bring about regime change or capture territory? nope. hamas efforts were designed to instill fear in the israeli population, to capture hearts and minds in the arab world and to provoke a response from israel which would make the world pay attention to gaza.

ask selves when was the last time there was an israel thread on this board? 2014? sure, there were plenty o' knee-jerk whatabotism posts in the ukraine thread regarding israel, but the last israel thread is forcing sherman and mr. peabody to set the wayback machine near on a decade. why so long ago? 'bout a decade is the last time israel invaded gaza. no coincidence.

hamas has few allies among the national leaders o' the arab world and fewer across the rest o' the globe. hamas is an islamic, fundamentalist, terrorist organization dedicated to eradicating jews from the lands former identified as the british mandate. they are not a sympathetic organization. people do realize that one o' the principal goals o' hamas is to generate arab casualties, yes? in 2022 or 2023, hamas (and tehran?) no doubt recognized the increasing trend o' arab nations to seek normalization o' relations with israel, the most tech advanced and stable economy/trading partner in the region. *gasp* in the past, increased rocket and small scale tunnel incursions from hamas terrorists only resulted in mow-the-lawn responses from israel, which had the obsidian board and the world's arab sympathizers irate for about a month longer than the the last israeli tank were sighted in gaza. hamas, increasing isolated in the arab world, needed better than 2014 or 2008-2009.

solution: hamas creates a situation where politically israel has no choice but to respond, which is a freaking understatement. need more video and eye-witness accounts o' october 7? am willing to post links if you folks have legit already forgotten.

...

again, hamas is not trying to bring about regime change and they don't have any illusions about capturing and holding israeli territory. this is so not a conventional conflict and hamas knows they cannot win a conventional war. hamas generates terror and outrage and then purposeful fights not to maximize israeli casualties, but arab corpses.  hamas puts their tunnel entrances, weapon manufacturing facilities and rocket launchers in schools, churches, mosques and residential buildings, daring israel to attack. hamas discourages civilians from leaving areas israel has warned will be subject to airstrikes. etc. serious, am hopeful there is some recognition from you whataboutist folks that you are trying to compare apples and xylophones. 

am not saying israel is misunderstood innocents who is trying their utmost to avoid civilian casualties-- poor israel is doing their best to uphold international and human rights laws, but hamas thwarts their best efforts. hogwash. following october 7, am suspecting those in charge o' the military response to october 7 is only concerned 'bout civilian casualties if such would result in the abandonment o' key western support. even so, to compare to russia's efforts in ukraine to israel in gaza is transparent flawed and utter ignores realities which should be obvious but constant go without mention. 

israel is not good guys. israel should not be getting a free pass just 'cause they is responding to the calculated monstrosity o' hamas. even so, compare russian civilian body counts in ukraine and other obvious stoopid metrics is only making poster biases clear. is so not the same, which again does not absolve israel o' responsibility for unnecessary civilian suffering and death. 

however, am betting Gromnir once again becomes exhausted before the whatabout people do. 

HA! Good Fun!

 

[uuuhhii]

there is a lot of difference between conventional war and decades long systematic massacre

 

hardly matter much to million of dead

[Malcador]

4 hours ago, PK htiw klaw eriF said:

That international law only applies to Russia.

Reminds me of

But nah, just applies to uncool kids. The others enter a realm of greyness and nuance.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

2 hours ago, Malcador said:

Reminds me of

But nah, just applies to uncool kids. The others enter a realm of greyness and nuance.

That's exactly the kind of thing I'm thinking of. While I'm not particularly surprised by the content of it, the brazenness of this open about who gets to be considered humanity and who doesn't is just too on the nose.

[BruceVC]

6 hours ago, Malcador said:

Reminds me of

But nah, just applies to uncool kids. The others enter a realm of greyness and nuance.

Do you think Hamas cares  about Palestinian  lives?

Why doesn't Hamas just release all   the hostages, they could negotiate a deal  through Qatar  and Egypt  where  they publicly  say something  like  "  we  will  release all  the hostages if there is a ceasefire "?

Put  pressure   on Israel in the global  arena?

 

[BruceVC]

7 hours ago, uuuhhii said:

there is a lot of difference between conventional war and decades long systematic massacre

 

hardly matter much to million of dead

Thats okay then,  I guess the Russian invasion and  war crimes  in Ukraine is different because  its  a  conventional war.   Good  to  know 

[uuuhhii]

without war it would be just crime

so there are that difference at least

is this the best twisting one can do

when was the last war without war crime

the one ended in one day maybe

wouldn't existence of war simply imply war crime would happen too

[Gorth]

1 hour ago, uuuhhii said:

when was the last war without war crime

The long running war between Canada and Denmark over Hans Island ended with a peace agreement recently. No war crimes have been brought forth to any international tribunals

 

edit: as a result of the peace treaty Canada and Denmark now share a land border 

 

[BruceVC]

21 minutes ago, Gorth said:

The long running war between Canada and Denmark over Hans Island ended with a peace agreement recently. No war crimes have been brought forth to any international tribunals

 

edit: as a result of the peace treaty Canada and Denmark now share a land border 

 

Gorthfucious !!!  You Nordic folk dont get a    pass,  remember  the Vikings and  terrible  war crimes inflicted  on my English ancestors. It still  creates subconscious   trauma,  remember trauma  is  generational so  1200 years feels like yesterday 

[Malcador]

8 hours ago, BruceVC said:

Do you think Hamas cares  about Palestinian  lives?

Why doesn't Hamas just release all   the hostages, they could negotiate a deal  through Qatar  and Egypt  where  they publicly  say something  like  "  we  will  release all  the hostages if there is a ceasefire "?

Put  pressure   on Israel in the global  arena?

 

Well Hamas have a bizarre relationship with morals, so I don't expect much from them. Even if they did I don't think Israel would agree - don't negotiate with terrorists - and invade anyway.  International pressure matters not as the US is always going to back them (I guess the US vassal, the UK as well).

At least the UN bickering continues - https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2023/10/25/israel-gaza-russia-us-united-nations/

Edited October 26, 2023 by Malcador

[Gorth]

JuiceMedia's take on where humanity is headed...

 

[BruceVC]

9 minutes ago, Gorth said:

JuiceMedia's take on where humanity is headed...

 

I love the satire from  Juice Media, the girls are naughty but very cute  

And they often make good ponts,  they obviously dont provide  solutions but  its parody and  it's not  supposed to    

[Gorgon]

40% of the buildings in Gaza are either destroyed or unsafe for human habitation, but the IDF is "being careful", so that's nice to know. 

[Malcador]

Looks like the invasion or whatever operation they're doing is going to kick off soon.  Air strikes picking up

https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-middle-east-67223217

[Zoraptor]

3 hours ago, Gorgon said:

40% of the buildings in Gaza are either destroyed or unsafe for human habitation, but the IDF is "being careful", so that's nice to know. 

For anyone wanting to visualise it CNN has some handy satellite before/ after comparisons. They're a couple of days old now though.

[Malcador]

https://news.sky.com/story/israel-accuses-hamas-of-commanding-attacks-from-inside-gaza-hospital-12994074

Israel still kind of sucks at this info war.

[BruceVC]

10 hours ago, Zoraptor said:

For anyone wanting to visualise it CNN has some handy satellite before/ after comparisons. They're a couple of days old now though.

There is definitely going to be a issue with the rebuild of  Gaza and where   are  the Palestinians going to live.  Who is going to manage  and rebuild  Gaza  once  Hamas is  destroyed?

I  predict  the UN will setup UN  refugee camps like  we  see   in Africa and ME  conflicts like  Syria, its not ideal but its  sustainable and people are  safe  

https://theconversation.com/most-east-african-refugees-are-hosted-close-to-borders-its-a-deliberate-war-strategy-200861#:~:text=Of the more than 300,Bidibidi in north-western Uganda

 

[BruceVC]

9 hours ago, Malcador said:

https://news.sky.com/story/israel-accuses-hamas-of-commanding-attacks-from-inside-gaza-hospital-12994074

Israel still kind of sucks at this info war.

Forget Netanyahu rhetoric but Hamas has  a history of using hospitals and schools  as  operating bases because they less likely to get targeted 

Here is a  link from 2014 and it discusses how  the UN found military equipment being stored  in schools

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/07/31/why-hamas-stores-its-weapons-inside-hospitals-mosques-and-schools/

[Malcador]

For sure, just found the presentation a bit silly.  Not as silly as the guy bringing a rock to a UN meeting and acting like it was a WMD.

 

[Zoraptor]

More children have been killed by the IDF in three weeks than in all other conflicts combined since 2019, per Save the Children.

IDF attack on Reuters reporter in Lebanon was deliberate and followed established pattern, per RSF. Also deliberate campaign to target journalists- and their families- in Gaza.

IDF says to evacuate along road, sticks tank there and fires at civilian vehicles, geoconfirmed by BBC. Not surprising they wanted to keep the phone/ internet blackout going really. Guess we won't get the moral outrage for the brown people with funny religions though, unlike similar events in Ukraine which got played over and over. More likely to get told how sad it made the Israeli crew feel, how they were forced into it and how that makes it a Hamas war crime.

IDF is most moral army in the world and everyone should unite to fight the barbarians, says modern day Gaiseric.

[Malcador]

36 minutes ago, Zoraptor said:

IDF says to evacuate along road, sticks tank there and fires at civilian vehicles, geoconfirmed by BBC. Not surprising they wanted to keep the phone/ internet blackout going really. Guess we won't get the moral outrage for the brown people with funny religions though, unlike similar events in Ukraine which got played over and over. More likely to get told how sad it made the Israeli crew feel, how they were forced into it and how that makes it a Hamas war crime.

The evidence that was a suicide bomber (or VBIED if I want to be some jargon wanker) people come up with is interesting, if just for the idea of trying to.  The camera crew already filming, or the fact that the car has gas means they must be Hamas as no one else has fuel, or some secondary explosion I still can't quite see. 

Sucks to not be 'relatively civilized', I guess.

[Zoraptor]

Hah, nobody out jargonic wankers me: SVBIED (Suicide Vehicle Based Improvised Explosive Device for anyone wondering), technically, assuming the driver wasn't going to try bailing or whatever. Though the nitpicking/ pedantry is kind of irrelevant since it clearly isn't a (S)VBIED at all.

I'd be vaguely interested in how the Hasbara types tried justifying the driver doing a 3 point turn and heading away as SVBIED behaviour, but only vaguely. End of the day it all resolves down to "Israel is the good guy" and variations on the Narcissists' Creed anyway.

[bugarup]

14 hours ago, Zoraptor said:

Guess we won't get the moral outrage for the brown people with funny religions though, unlike similar events in Ukraine which got played over and over. More likely to get told how sad it made the Israeli crew feel, how they were forced into it and how that makes it a Hamas war crime.

I would hazard a guess it's more "people who elected terrorists and openly celebrate their carnage" issue than "brown people with funny religions". Because fellow "brown people with funny religions" of Egypt keep their border with Gaza closed too for some reason...

[Zoraptor]

Egypt keeps the border shut because the US pays them to. Quite literally. And of course, that's the same Egyptian government that the Rules Based Order was 100% fine with machine gunning thousands of people during a coup to depose the democratically elected government, lest we forget.

As for electing Hamas, half of Gaza wasn't alive at the last election and half of those who were were too young to vote, and 56% voted against Hamas. So you're down to... around 1 in 10 of the population where it would be a valid excuse, if it were a valid excuse to kill people based on who they voted for, which is... questionable, ethically. In any case you can thank geopolitical mastermind George W Bush for the result. How stupid do you have to be to think that a US sponsored pro Abbas campaign would help him- GWB "we'll be welcomed as liberators" level stupid.

Mostly though, if it's OK to shoot up Palestinians for electing Hamas (17 years ago) surely it's OK for them to shoot up Israelis for electing Ben-Gvir, Netanyahu, Gallant and all the other religious nutbars in the Israeli government, last year? No it isn't? We're in agreement then.

So, guess we need to find a reason why it's OK to shoot up Palestinian civilians then- and we're back to them being brown and having the wrong religion.