Ukraine Conflict - Continues

[Lexx]

37 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

What about Israel, do they have Nazis in there security forces 

I mean, yes. Nazis aren't necessarily antisemitic. There's more than enough ultra-right wing jews.

[BruceVC]

9 minutes ago, Lexx said:

I mean, yes. Nazis aren't necessarily antisemitic. There's more than enough ultra-right wing jews.

Nazi's arent antisemitic? First time I heard that

Not all right-wing groups are anti-semitic but Neo-Nazis definitely are 

 

[Lexx]

We probably use different definitions of what nazis are. That said, this feels like arguing semantics. Does it make a difference if the right wingers are jew-hating nazis or rather hate some other minority? At the end of the day, they are all the same garbage that belongs into the trash.

Edited March 6, 2023 by Lexx

[BruceVC]

https://news.yahoo.com/ukraine-won-largest-tank-battle-221100247.html

Good link about a Ukrainian tank victory in Vuhledar, the Russians dont seem to have any logic or prudent military strategies and just believe in " going forward " irrespective of the Ukrainian defenses 

 

[Chilloutman]

4 hours ago, Lexx said:

We probably use different definitions of what nazis are. That said, this feels like arguing semantics. Does it make a difference if the right wingers are jew-hating nazis or rather hate some other minority? At the end of the day, they are all the same garbage that belongs into the trash.

racist is not automatically nazi. Right wing is not Nazi. National SOCIALISTS are not right wing (capitalist free marketeers). Jesus I don't know who connected Nazis with politics opposing socialism but what a marketing move it was

 

Suprising Lexx does not know its, I thought this crap should be elementary school stuff for germans

 

 

Edited March 6, 2023 by Chilloutman

[Malcador]

Always a funny debate, especially when you consider what's the point of it.  Well other than farming YouTube views, anyway.  Suppose it depends a lot on whatever definition this guy runs with.   Useful quote from Hitler, if anything from him can be called that

"'Socialist' I define from the word 'social; meaning in the main ‘social equity’. A Socialist is one who serves the common good without giving up his individuality or personality or the product of his personal efficiency. Our adopted term 'Socialist' has nothing to do with Marxian Socialism. Marxism is anti-property; true socialism is not. Marxism places no value on the individual, or individual effort, of efficiency; true Socialism values the individual and encourages him in individual efficiency, at the same time holding that his interests as an individual must be in consonance with those of the community. All great inventions, discoveries, achievements were first the product of an individual brain. It is charged against me that I am against property, that I am an atheist. Both charges are false."

Edited March 6, 2023 by Malcador

[Chilloutman]

Well, definitions and word meaning are important, if we can't agree on both of those we will never understand each other. to your second point - whatever he say is one thing, what he did is another. I am not trying to farm any views, video is not mine, I just wanted quick and easy to digest reference.

 

What do you think my point was? Again you are blurring the debate without making any constructive points yourself. 'its funny considering the point'' What the heck do you mean by it?

 

Marx coined socialism and communism terms - so he defined them.

Edited March 6, 2023 by Chilloutman

[BruceVC]

29 minutes ago, Malcador said:

Always a funny debate, especially when you consider what's the point of it.  Well other than farming YouTube views, anyway.  Suppose it depends a lot on whatever definition this guy runs with.   Useful quote from Hitler, if anything from him can be called that

"'Socialist' I define from the word 'social; meaning in the main ‘social equity’. A Socialist is one who serves the common good without giving up his individuality or personality or the product of his personal efficiency. Our adopted term 'Socialist' has nothing to do with Marxian Socialism. Marxism is anti-property; true socialism is not. Marxism places no value on the individual, or individual effort, of efficiency; true Socialism values the individual and encourages him in individual efficiency, at the same time holding that his interests as an individual must be in consonance with those of the community. All great inventions, discoveries, achievements were first the product of an individual brain. It is charged against me that I am against property, that I am an atheist. Both charges are false."

There is a point if you interested in understanding  that there are different right-wing groups throughout the world and they dont all have the same ideological views or biases towards ethnic groups

And why does this matter, well it matters so we dont mischaracterize things and institutions. For example Fox news is not a neo-nazi media house. Its Conservative and represents the US right-wing political spectrum but right-wing in the US doesnt automatically mean racist 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-wing_politics

It can be confusing but its interesting and semantics are important when we debate in good faith 

[Malcador]

49 minutes ago, Chilloutman said:

Well, definitions and word meaning are important, if we can't agree on both of those we will never understand each other. to your second point - whatever he say is one thing, what he did is another. I am not trying to farm any views, video is not mine, I just wanted quick and easy to digest reference.

 

What do you think my point was? Again you are blurring the debate without making any constructive points yourself. 'its funny considering the point'' What the heck do you mean by it?

 

Marx coined socialism and communism terms - so he defined them.

Yes, but if someone runs with an incorrect definition or has to engage in some mental contortionism then they're not off to a good start. Hitler did coin national socialism, so his definition is worth considering at least.  I am a bit skeptical of the claim, just from a surface level as Krupp and such were still private firms. 

But the point of this debate is usually some culture war BS, past 6-7 years have seen it come up with the not subtle intention of taking away "Socialism is Hitler!", so you'll have to pardon my cynicism on such Youtube videos.  

https://kyivindependent.com/national/ukrainian-soldiers-in-bakhmut-our-troops-are-not-being-protected

"During their brief visits to the nearby town of Kostiantynivka, Ukrainian infantrymen told the Kyiv Independent of unprepared, poorly-trained battalions being thrown into the front line meat grinder to survive as best they could with little support from armored vehicles, mortars, artillery, drones and tactical information. "

Still sending more though

https://www.president.gov.ua/en/news/volodimir-zelenskij-proviv-zasidannya-stavki-verhovnogo-golo-81461

 

Edited March 6, 2023 by Malcador

[Chilloutman]

There can be private companies in socialist economic theory as long as they are co-operational with regime. Not so much after next step - communism which abolish private property completely

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

8 hours ago, Lexx said:

I mean, yes. Nazis aren't necessarily antisemitic. There's more than enough ultra-right wing jews.

I'd disagree with this, but I think the current anti-semitism of the fascist nationalist international is expressed through a (Christian) Zionism rather than an outright eliminationist view. The same folks still talk in barely coded anti-semitic rhetoric, like George Soros trying to turn your country brown and gay or Jewish Space Lazers, but will use their support of an apartheid state (Israel meets the legal definitions here folks, blame the law not me) as a shield against any accusations. All aided by the ultra-right wing jews, who are pretty much kapos.

2 hours ago, Malcador said:

Always a funny debate, especially when you consider what's the point of it.  Well other than farming YouTube views, anyway.  Suppose it depends a lot on whatever definition this guy runs with.   Useful quote from Hitler, if anything from him can be called that

"'Socialist' I define from the word 'social; meaning in the main ‘social equity’. A Socialist is one who serves the common good without giving up his individuality or personality or the product of his personal efficiency. Our adopted term 'Socialist' has nothing to do with Marxian Socialism. Marxism is anti-property; true socialism is not. Marxism places no value on the individual, or individual effort, of efficiency; true Socialism values the individual and encourages him in individual efficiency, at the same time holding that his interests as an individual must be in consonance with those of the community. All great inventions, discoveries, achievements were first the product of an individual brain. It is charged against me that I am against property, that I am an atheist. Both charges are false."

While the NSDAP did have a left-wing that were pretty much racist social democrats (and avowedly anti-communist), those folks were largely purged in the Night of Long Knives while Nazis in power were largely friendly to business and indeed enjoyed support as a bulwark against communism.

[Lexx]

2 hours ago, Chilloutman said:

Well, definitions and word meaning are important, if we can't agree on both of those we will never understand each other.

Yeah, or you can use it to derail a discussion and undermine the point, which is that right wingers should all be fired into the sun. This reminds me of a few years ago, where someone I knew had to point out that nazis aren't alive anymore, the people today are neo-nazis. "It's not the same!" - yeah, right, you know pretty well what is being talked about.

Edited March 6, 2023 by Lexx

[Chilloutman]

15 minutes ago, Lexx said:

Yeah, or you can use it to derail a discussion and undermine the point, which is that right wingers should all be fired into the sun. This reminds me of a few years ago, where someone I knew had to point out that nazis aren't alive anymore, the people today are neo-nazis. "It's not the same!" - yeah, right, you know pretty well what is being talked about.

No I don't because nazis are not right wingers. Thats the issue. You are calling hot cold and cold hot. Nazis should be fired into the sun, free market people are innocent in this and you are grouping them with worst scum on earth. Thats why meaning of words is important. Unless you mean free market people should be fired into sun, in that case I don't know what to tell you as you are in same camp as Nazis and Communists. This is classic tactic of guilt by association.

[Lexx]

Saying right wingers are free market people and nothing else made me really laugh right now, thanks for that. That said, I don't think it really matters what I write next, since I will open myself up for something somewhere, which will likely give you an easy gotcha, and I really can't be arsed to write a lawyer-esque secure reply right now (not that I ever can, this is the internet after all ).

I mean, jeez, just look at the american right on Fox News and Co., and tell me that all those people want is a free market. Now to keep Gromnir chill: I'm just throwing that our as a captain obvious example, I know that every other western country also has active right wing nutjobs grifting on right now. /Edit: And with right wing nutjobs I don't mean people who love the free market (which by the way also doesn't work, but that's another story entirely).

Edited March 6, 2023 by Lexx

[Chilloutman]

5 minutes ago, Lexx said:

Saying right wingers are free market people and nothing else made me really laugh right now, thanks for that. That said, I don't think it really matters what I write next, since I will open myself up for something somewhere, which will likely give you an easy gotcha, and I really can't be arsed to write a lawyer-esque secure reply right now.

I mean, jeez, just look at the american right on Fox News and Co., and tell me that all those people want is a free market. Now to keep Gromnir chill: I'm just throwing that our as a captain obvious example, I know that every other western country also has active right wing nutjobs grifting on right now. /Edit: And with right wing nutjobs I don't mean people who love the free market (which by the way also doesn't work, but that's another story entirely).

well thats people like you who are polluting right-wing term when they associate it with nutjobs. Because I suppose for lefties saying that Nazis were left-wing nutjobs is making them look bad 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-wing_politics

 

[Lexx]

Yeah, but nazis actually weren't left-wing. Just because they call themselves that, doesn't mean they are. Just ask the Democratic People's Republic of Korea how democratic they are.

Edited March 6, 2023 by Lexx

[Chilloutman]

11 minutes ago, Lexx said:

Yeah, but nazis actually weren't left-wing. Just because they call themselves that, doesn't mean they are. Just ask the Democratic People's Republic of Korea how democratic they are.

They nationalized many companies, they promoted tons of social programs including free education, unions, workers rights, paid holidays for workers, free heathcare, he suspended weimar constitutional rights for property ownership and freedom of speech (albeit its more authoritarian than left/right I agree), he implemented planned economy for basically every aspect of economy including farmers. What more you need to call it left wing??

Edited March 6, 2023 by Chilloutman

[Lexx]

Ok, you are right. Nazis are left wing and were the problem all along. We should shoot the left into the sun.

[Chilloutman]

left and right are not inherently evil. I am pretty centric myself I guess. Its just Nazi is so much more than just economic theory. to call someone Nazi he needs to be:

 

1. Nationalist as opposed to internationalist or globalist

2. Economically on the left (planned economy - state owned) as opposed on being free marketeer

3. Race supremacist or just racist

4. militarist as opposed to pacifist

5. authoritarian/dictatorial as opposed to Democratic or Libertarian/anarchic

 

if you minus point 3 you are fascist

 

thats why I am saying that not all racist are nazis. Not everyone you disagree with is nazi.

[Mamoulian War]

Hehe, always funny to see people arguing which end of the horseshoe is worse scum  

Hint: both should be fired into the Sun, preferably in a same batch

[Mamoulian War]

Since the start of the war, Bulgaria has sold through 3rd countries to Ukraine weapons and ammunition worth a billion USD.

https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2023/03/6/7392185/

[Lexx]

1 hour ago, Mamoulian War said:

Hehe, always funny to see people arguing which end of the horseshoe is worse scum  

Hint: both should be fired into the Sun, preferably in a same batch

Yeah, it's stupid and actually quite annoying. But as I said earlier, we currently do not have a left-wing extremism problem here in the west. It's the right side we have to worry about and, imo, the time to let it slide is over. You give them a finger and they'll take your hand and then the whole arm, probably even more. The thing is, they do not give a **** about us lowly peasants at all. It's all about filling their own pockets for as long as possible in one way or the other. From a more cynical perspective, though, I find it quite funny how they make bank with corruption by distracting you with wild stories about hating jews and gay people. Also, just realized this is the completely wrong thread for that stuff, oh well.

In other news, a new russian war crime video has been released and is currently making the rounds all over the internet. Reminded me of our very own left wing Sahra Wagenknecht, who wants the Ukraine to lay down the weapons and bent over "for peace" - we should shoot her and her people into the sun as well.

Edited March 6, 2023 by Lexx

[Zoraptor]

Ah yes. You can tell people who are deeply committed to western liberal values, democracy, freedom of speech etc and are implacably opposed to extremist ideologies like nazism immediately by... their desire to fire people they disagree with into the sun. Ho hum.

Some videos coming out purportedly* showing the last road into Bakhmut now... and road is an extremely generous description. Knee deep mud and a lot of abandoned vehicles due to bogging and damage.

And why not; time to check back on a popular theory ~a month ago- "Prigozhin and pals have been banned from mention in Russian media". Unsurprisingly, yeah, nah.

*one at least has a geolocation, but I wouldn't count it as being overly reliable.

[Malcador]

For something to laugh about

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/03/06/ukraine-accuses-louis-vuitton-endorsing-russian-invasion-advert/

[Gorth]

1 hour ago, Malcador said:

For something to laugh about

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/03/06/ukraine-accuses-louis-vuitton-endorsing-russian-invasion-advert/

I'm fairly sure the Tricolore predates the Russian flag by more than a century... I don't remember the details, but I think the Russian flag used to have a lot of yellow in when it was The Russian Empire, like yellow with a black Czarist/Imperial Eagle on it