Melee Rogue is too weak on PotD Upscale

[ekt0]

I have decided to play another run of this game on PotD Upscale, as I had never finished the game on this diffuculty before. I have tried few classes as my PC, mostly melee, as I want to play with my nukers NPCs such as Aloth, Hiravias, and Durance. Choosing another caster would make the party "unbalanced" IMHO of course. Among those classes I had chosen, I found Rogue is the weakest melee attacker. It does nothing good enough, even as a single target damage dealer.

I know that many topics like this one had been discussed thoroughly in the past. Creating a new one seem unnecessarily redundant. Yet, I find those topics mentioned are not clear and concise enough. Sometimes, those posts even transformed into a war between Rogue-lovers and the opposite, which I do not mind if it was not dragged too far and too long. Anyway, I hope my new post would suit anyone who wants to find the answer on Google about how good Rogue is on PotD Upscale.

Rogue has the worst starting stat. Damage dealer Rogue cannot tank or off-tank. 

Starting with only 15 deflection, Rogue is the worst tank class in this game, while Fighter starts with 30 deflection and monk has 25. The only way to play melee Rouge is to hit an enemy that had been already engaged by another tank or party member, which seems to be the correct method to play. The problem is that if some archers target you, what would you do ? Walking away, Escape, or Shadaowing Beyond means that you do not attack and thus cause less damage. Not to mention that in order to doing so, you must spend some skill points on non-damage skill first, which is not effective also.

This low-deflectioned problem will happen or cause another problem no matter how you distribute your stat points. Most people tend to do it either a glass-cannon way or balanced way. The first one is dumping RES to minimum like 3-4 depending on race, and the other one is keeping RES at 10 so that Rogue might mitigate some damage. The rare one is pumping RES to max and gimping other stats, increasing Rogue survivability. The sad thing is that even at max RES, Rogue still has lower deflection than Monk at 10 RES.

Reckless Assault does not stack with Savage Attack.

I am not sure who decide the rule like this but it hurts so badly. If these 2 skills stack on each other, Rogue would be considered stronger. The net benefit would be +40% atk damage +3 accuracy -8 deflection, which is pretty good. By the way, in reality, they do not stack, which means that other melee damage dealer classes have a way to get +20% as well. The difference would be that Rogue has +13 accuracy more relatively. Aceeptable ? Let's find out later.

Sneak Attack requires a target to be debuffed or flanked.

In order to flank an enemy in Pillars of Eternity, 2 characters must attack the same target on the opposite side, which means one character needs to spend time walking to the back side or use some skill while the other one engages in the front. Usually, the one doing the walking is Rogue and tank go in front. This seem to be normal and effective for any melee attacker class since you always want an enemy to be flanked as the stat is lowered. However, in some circumstances, you cannot just walk casually to their back side, because in most situation you need to use a choke point to prevent your party from getting swarmed by a horde of enemies. On PotD Upscale, there are a lot of enemies.

Without flanking, you need other party members to debuff for you. They may be required to use certain skill or spell for you at the moment instead of doing their things. For instances, Aloth may use fireball or Hiravias may use Spiritshift. All preparations must be done so that Rogue can get +50% damage from melee weapons. As a result, net party DPS may be not as efficient as you think.

Comparing Rogue vs Spiritshifted Druid, I also find that by the time Rogue reachs the back side of an enemy, the Spirited Shift Druid (Hiravias) has attacked 3 times already. The damage per hit is also much more than Rogue's Sneak Attack. Spritshifted Druid, they surely hit hard and fast.

Rogue has no attack speed buff.

Even though Rogue can hit hard with proper setup. Sneak Attack in a combination with Deathblows can produce a big damage number. Rogue lacks attack speed. This is why most Rogue players must put a lot of stat on DEX in compensation.

Per rest abilities are not enough.

Shadowing Beyond, Finishing Blow, and Fearsome Strike are per-rest skills. Such constraints limit Rogue damage output harshly. When playing Rogue, unless meta gaming (you know what will happen next), people tend to keep these skills for the hard fight, which they do not know whether it will come soon or not. Eventually, they may not have a chance to use them at all. Limiting 1 time per rest on Fearsome Strike is a joke.

Backstab is just an illusion. The skill is really hard to use.

In order to Backstab an enemy, you need to be invisible or in stealth. With Stealth, you can do Backstab 1 time per encounter. With Shadowing Beyond, you can do 2 Backstab per rest. With level-15 skill Feign Death, you can do Backstab 1 time per encounter. The number of availability is low and what you get is merely +150% damage. Any normal character can reach +200% damage by attacking 3 times. A minmax Spiritshifted Druid may even attack 5 times while Rogue "prepares" to do Backstab. However, you might take this skill anyway because you do not have anything better to choose. This is kinda sad.

Dirty Fighting is just a lesser version of +10 accuracy.

Dirty Fighting is a great passive skill for any damage dealer. Everyone likes it. This skill is one of the reasons anybody wants to play Rogue as PC. However, other classes might have similar skill too such as Stalker Link from Ranger and Discipline Barrage from Figher.

 

In summary, I want to like Rogue but the class is just not that good in PotD Upscale.

All Rogue-lovers, please read this before comment. My opinion is based on PotD Upscale only. If your Rogue works on lower difficulty, I understand, but that is not the point here. Try playing White March II at level 15-16 and choose level upsacle to High Level and you will see what I mean.

Edited December 24, 2022 by ekt0
wording

[Elric Galad]

Well, Rogue appears on bottom Tier on most class rankings I've seen. I don't think there is a huge debate about it. 

It could be said in an even more simple way : their Single Target damages are not distinctively better than other classes, they are squishy and none of their special tricks are great. 

Still it does its main job in an okay fashion so isn't unplayable. Deathblows + Scrolls is a decent backup feat. And I personnally like Sap+ Blunderbuss to super reliably control and damage a high priority target on every fight even with a melee Rogue. But that's it. 

[Boeroer]

Yes, PoE's Rogue is one of the weakest classes on PotD. The way the difficulty spike is achieved (more monsters with higher endurance/health) makes single target damage dealers less viable than characters who can target AoEs. That's why Rogue plays very well in the lower difficulty tiers with fewer and weaker enemies. There you can kill very quickly as a Rogue and one dead enemy out of 3 has a much bigger effect than one dead enemy out of 10.

This is not a Rogue-only problem. A Fighter, played as (sturdy) single target damage dealer, is also a pretty weak pick on PotD difficulty. As is a Ranger who focuses on single target damage.

They can still be useful though if you use them with high mobility and a focus on caster-hunting. It can be quite effective to rush and kill enemy casters such as Priests and Wizards asap - even if your Rogue goes down in the process.    

[Chaospread]

Hello, you are right, Rogue is not very powerful compared to other classes but you can take some workaround playing it with some micro as you were in SOLO, if you have patiente for that.
By the way, in a group PotD Upscaled, I'd play Rogue as ranged, taking somenthing like Borresaine with high accuracy a let someone else in front of me tanking and killing enemies in melee.

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Rogue has the worst starting stat. Damage dealer Rogue cannot tank or off-tank

Ok, you can first drink some potion like Llengrath's Displaced Image before to go in combat.

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Reckless Assault does not stack with Savage Attack.

Who cares? Recless Assault is far better than Savage Attack. And you can put on top of that +5 Deflection if you want, if you wanna play defensive, also because rogue don't need many talents to be effective.

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Sneak Attack requires a target to be debuffed or flanked.

Debuff enemies by yourself. Rotfinger Gloves for example. Or, if you wanna flak someone: figurines.

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Rogue has no attack speed buff.

I agree, you have to keep always some Potion of Deleterious Alacrity of Motion and/or Gauntlets of Swift Action, in addition to high DEX and maybe two-handed style. I'd change Shadow Step with some speed bonus.

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Per rest abilities are not enough.

Yes, they had to do like Barbarian, Fearsome Strike per rest, mmm. Or maybe, since Rogue has very good per combat abilities, make Fearsome strike better.

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Backstab is just an illusion. The skill is really hard to use.

Yeah, I think no one serious can use Backstab. Better to drop it, at this point.

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Dirty Fighting is just a lesser version of +10 accuracy.

Mmm, I disagree. See my recent build about that

By the way, I agree with you, best Rogue ability for me is skipping encontures (where possible) or pull enemies with Shadowing Beyond, but in a group this is quite useless

[Boeroer]

For solo it's indeed a bit different because Rogue has access to Shadowing Beyond which makes so many difficult encounters a lot easier to deal with. Kill a single enemy, go invisible which stops the combat, repeat. Or just skip the combat altogether because fighting doesn't give a lot of XP anyways. 

 

[ekt0]

On PotD Upscale, Rouge cannot fight at Abbey of the Fallen Moon without dying in the process. He will be knocked down a lot. If he chooses to hide, his teammates will be downed instead.

No matter how aggressive RP Rogue is, they have to do this quest in the diplomatic or sneaky way, which is kinda RP paradoxial.

Even using a potion of Llengrath Displace Image might not be enough to withstand the horde of monks, paladins, and priests. They are so tanky and hit hard like a truck.

[Chaospread]

Maybe also he died with monks and others enemies of Torn Bannermen outside Cragholdt, yes, maybe he should use escape or similar forms of abilities to run otu of danger and then use ranged weapons or perhaps these abilities are too weak... if he is am aggressive Rogue he should have the chance to kill an enemy with one shot from the shadows, but in POE this is nearly impossible, you know. Or instead with some buff of a Priest he can live longer... by the way in SOLO those quests are performed in "pacific" way and also for others classes many quests in SOLO are not feasible in the RP way your character follows... this is it for PoE, you're right. Even if I suppose that with a party built for a rogue, the rogue can live longer in very difficult situations, maybe someone can try this guess.

Edited January 12, 2023 by Chaospread

[Boeroer]

--- Rogue with bashing shield:
You can build a sturdy Rogue with a shield who is capable to survive in tough battles without hiding and still do good melee dmg.
Let the Rogue use a bashing shield to still profit from the Full Attack strikes that contain afflictions (Blinding Strike etc.) and a hard hitting one handed weapon (war hammer, sabre, mace and so on). WIth a Full Attack the (weaker) offhand will strike first, not dealing that much damage but applying the affliction already. Second swing from the harder hitting main hand then gets the Sneak Attack bonus right away. A Bash is considered an ability - so it scales its accuracy with level (char level -1 = acc bonus) and is never behind your main weapon's auto attack too much - it keeps being decent (in terms of accuracy). 
My favorite late-game setup for such a rogue was Godansthunyr + Badgradr's Barricade. They work beautifully together. The bash of the shield procs Thrust of Tattered Veils - which has no limit per encounter. It will proc on every bash-crit. ToTV is a spell and thus doesn't profit from Sneak Attack - but it profits from Deathblows (+100%dmg) which makes it a nice addition to your dps. At the same time Riposte makes a lot of sense with such a Rogue (bash-crits from Riposte will proc ToTV, too). Godanthunyr allows to stun enemies on crit (so they won't be able to attack you) which also helps with unlocking Deathblows right away.
The early to mid or even late game can be done with the superearly Larder Door and later Scath Gwannek if Azurro wants to sell it (kinda random event). Unfortunetly Dragon's Maw can't be bound to a Rogue so that leaves Badgradr's Barricade as the best option. Scath Gwannek is also nice because it has a 3/rest-spellbinding of Winter Wind (spellbinding with a Rogue: see below).
This is still not a tank - but it's a quite sturdy Rogue who doesn't lose a lot of damage output. And you know what they say: "dead Rogues deal the least damage"...  

--- Ranged Rogue
You can of course also play a ranged Rogue and thus circumvent the problem of getting knocked out so much while still contributing nicely to the party's damage output. Rogue with maxed MIG, low INT and Persistence (its wounding dmg per tick scales with MIG, its overall dps raises the lower the INT) has great ranged, single target dps.
Also arquebus with Rogue is not a bad pick imo. Especially Pliambo per Casitàs, which has a marking enchantment, is great to hunt down casters and such in the back rows. You can team up with another ranged party member near you and while delivering deadly shots give your nearest partner all-stacking +10 accuracy on the target. Shoot at he same enemy and they will go down very quickly.

---Spellcasting Rogue
Another way is to focus on spellbinding/-holding/-striking (and so on) gear. Since Deathblows works with spells you can pile all sorts of damaging spell-per-rest gear on the Rogue (see Flames of Fair Rhian, Amulet of SUmmer Solstice, Sun-Touched Mail etc.). Once enemies have two afflictions on them the Rogue can bombard them with his double damage spells with high accuracy. As with all spellcasters, you might want to spare the bulk of the spells for the tough fights and "just be a normal Rogue" in the easier ones. But once it's time to turn the tides the Rogue can really pull off some tricks then. Same with scrolls: a Rogue with Deathblows and a scroll of Missile Barrage on double-afflicted enemies is very deadly (again: +100% damage).

 

--- Draining Rogue
A Rogue with a draining weapon and good DR can survive a single encoutner long enough do have decent impact. Tidefall is a great weapon because it combines the health draining (which is dependent on the damage you deal) and the wounding (which works like a multiplicative lash and thus also is dependent on the damage you deal). Hitting with it won't raise your health of course (use potions of Infuse with Vital Essence for that), but it will work well for your endurance. You will sacrifice a bit dps because no Full Attacks/dual wielding and also bc. of longer recovery due to thick armor - but it's doing very well against high DR foes (wounding is raw dmg that bypasses DR completely and the higher base damage of two handers has an easier time with DR in the first place). It also makes using Backstab+Shadowing Beyond (and Cape of the Master Mystic) worthwhile in tough encounters.
There are other alternatives with draining and they start pretty early (Gaun's Share, Oidhreacht etc. ). It's one of the very few times I actually used Rose of Salthollow - and it worked quite well. Also looks badass imo.    

---
The standard melee Rogue unfortunately isn't that well-suited for PotD's late game. Way too many enemies with way too much health (or endurance) for a single target damage dealer who's not able to survive concentrated attention.

Edited January 15, 2023 by Boeroer

[Blades of Vanatar]

Boeroer, you never cease to amaze!

[WQAS]

I pretty much agree with everything that has been said. I just want to add that I don't like playing a rogue as my main character, but I like to play with Devil of Caroc.

If you have a priest in your party, with Shields/Crowns for the Faithful a dual wield rogue is totally viable. If you take advantage of her immunities and, for example, with fast weapons + vulnerable attack, she can be very powerful and funny, at least for me.

[Boeroer]

Yes, although I think the Rogue class is one of the weakest (or let's say most unfun) for PotD difficulty I really like the Devil of Caroc as a companion. She was the one I gave Badgradr's Barricade and Godansthunyr to (the first time I tried that combo out), but she was also fun with Tall Grass. Her immunities can be exploited with some friendly-fire AoE spells (mostly from Wizard iirc) where you can place her in the front line to bait enemies and then shower them with spells which won't affect the Devil. I once made a "team of two" for that purpose: Devil oC & Bilestomper, one of the builds I posted here in the forums back then.  

 

[WQAS]

I've taken a look at your Bilestomper build, perhaps not suitable for most tastes, but it seems very original to me. I had tried a wizard with very low MIG and high DEX and INT as a crowd controller, but never thought of dumping DEX. This is what I like most about PoE, that this offers so many different possibilities  for different types of players. And in Deadfire it still offers many more, even though it never got past Act I. The 2 times I've tried it, when I got the ship I left it.

About DofCaroc, I agree with what you say. To add something, their immunities make it much easier to Luminescent Caves, if you don't have a very high level and you rush to get Silver Flash. I like to use blunderbusses, even if it's just to trigger Combusting Wounds.

[kayfabe]

I know this is necromancy, but yeah, I really do agree that starting with half the Deflection of a Fighter was particularly unnecessary. I'm actually sorta fond of high con, high resolve shield rogues since over time you can shift your itemization away from wearing heavy armor and instead rely on a combination of deathblows, Aila Braccia and low recovery to let you blow through your enemies but even there i have to admit that in Act 1 I'm essentially talking about a character that has comparable damage and defenses to a 2 handed Fighter but without the benefit of Constant Recovery. That's not *unplayably* bad since fighters are actually pretty solid performers in act 1, but it's not like we're talking about a class that scales so well into the endgame that some growing pains are warranted. You get a brief window where you can plausibly shine when deathblows comes online but it's hard to call that too big of a deal compared to the Dragon Thrashed.

[Elric Galad]

I've always considered Rogue being the lowest Tier in PoE1 and Fighter being slightly above.

I might have overlooked Fighter's Unbending since it works most likely as in PoE2, healing you way more than advertised and more than the damages you take ([MECHANICS] Various Testing - Page 2 - Pillars of Eternity II: Deadfire Characters Builds, Strategies & the Unity Engine (Spoiler Warning!) - Obsidian Forum Community) since foes activating Unbending in PoE1 were basically immortal as far as I remember. So at least Fighter can have unlimited endurance "enough time per day" while doing decent weapon damages.

 

But for Rogue, it's harder to get redeeming qualities out of abusing Deathblows + Scrolls.

My main grip has always been that they do barely more damages than Ranger with bows + pet, due to how strong is Twin Arrows modal at high level. And Ranger has more utility. 

I could have tried some modding myself , but PoE1 is way more complicated to mod than PoE2 and I know how time consuming it can become once you commit starting a mod. Therefore I looked for existing mods about Thief, which led me to this one :

Rogue Buff 3.7 at Pillars of Eternity Nexus - Mods and community (nexusmods.com)

 

What do you guys think about it ?

Leaving apart modded Adept Evasion which is claimed broken by its author himself (and can apparently be removed from the package quite easily), I think it does a sufficient job for following reasons (by prority) :

 

1) Modded Backstab can be used at distance and modded Shadowing Beyond can be used twice per encounter. It is great because it gives enormous alpha damages basically 3x per encounter which can be abused with firearms especially. Blunderbusses can apply conditions with 6x rolls (which is nice even without mod), making it basically auto-hit and allows bullets from 2nd to benefit from Sneak Attack / Deathblows / potential deflection Debuff from the affliction.

So you can set up stuff like :

a) Alpha strike with Sap/Blinding Strike applying Backstab + Sneak + Deathblow with Scon Mica's Roar from sneak

b) (Quick) Switch to Beta strike with Runner's Wounding Shot applying Backstab + Sneak + Deathblow with Lead Spitter from Shadowing Beyond

EDIT : IT WON'T WORK SINCE BACKSTAB ONLY APPLIES TO FIRST PELLET... 

You'll still have a Shadowing Beyond "charge", and even after it, you're left with a good DPSer that has already removed a couple of targets from the encounter.

In my own experience Sap + Blunderbuss is already great without mod, but this would take it to another level.

I think it is great because it emphasized the strength of the class at alpha striking, not just trying to imitate other class feature. PoE1 fight aren't that long (compared to PoE2), so a good alpha striker can really turn the tables. 

 

2) These improved deep wounds are neat, and emphasizes with the already strong use of Scrolls and item abilities.

 

3) The modded version of Riposte seems easier to build around reliably.

 

4) The other changes are less interesting, but are essentially buffs so it can't be bad anyway.

 

I'm really thinking to use this mod when I will come back at PoE1, since it solved the aspect of the game balance I'm the most uncomfortable with, which is the relative weakness of the rogue.

Edited April 19, 2023 by Elric Galad

[Chaospread]

Hi, I don't agree with you. I've done a run with a Rogue and one hand style in Potd SOLO, the Rogue can achieve that run with not many troubles.

Yes, wizard, priest monk, cipher, chanter (and maybe even barbarian, druid and so on) are better, perhaps fighter and paladin are better but if you mod the rogue, you have to mod also fighter and ranger at least.

But you're right that some abilities/talent are near useless, I think shadowing beyond should be 1 per encounter, sneak attack should be "landable" more easily (not like foes in WM2 for an example) with stealth and above all riposte should do raw damage, or more damage (I'd prefer less damage, but raw).

But this mod, in general, make the game more playable, I agree :)

[Elric Galad]

5 hours ago, Chaospread said:

Hi, I don't agree with you. I've done a run with a Rogue and one hand style in Potd SOLO, the Rogue can achieve that run with not many troubles.

Everyone can

5 hours ago, Chaospread said:

Yes, wizard, priest monk, cipher, chanter (and maybe even barbarian, druid and so on) are better, perhaps fighter and paladin are better but if you mod the rogue, you have to mod also fighter and ranger at least.

I don't agree. Paladins have a formidable endgame ability with Sacred Immolation, on top of auras, instant joker resurrect and a couple of goodies. Paladins before sacred immolation were meh though.

Fighters are borderline in the same case as Rogues, but Charge really does a lots of damages 2x encounter and sundering blows is neat with the right combos (blunderbusses and multi-hit spells especially). And most important, Unbending can really make you unkillable when really needed, something no other class can do. Overall they are not too bad and have their own unique specialty.

Rogue are supposed to be the king of passive single target DPS, but they are not really, or just by a thin margin, since Twinned Arrows came and basically doubles Ranger's DPS, making Ranger somewhat comparable to Rogue. Ranger has a pet (with decent damages) and a lots of utilities (esp. Driving Flight and reccursive CC through Stunning Blow). It is really the comparison with Ranger (and Druid for short period of time) that makes the Rogue feels so poor.

They never receive something as gamechanging as Sacred Immolation and Twinned Arrows. 

[Chaospread]

Rogue has an accuracy so high that compensate Sacred Immolation and Twinned Arrows, but I agree and repeat, some rogue abilities and or talents should be reviewed

I played PoTD SOLO with Rogue and Paladin, I had less troubles with Rogue, but maybe it is my style of playing.

Fighter are underrated in my opinion, but I've never played it in SOLO so maybe I'm wrong.

Edited April 20, 2023 by Chaospread

[Elric Galad]

3 hours ago, Chaospread said:

Rogue has an accuracy so high that compensate Sacred Immolation and Twinned Arrows, but I agree and repeat, some rogue abilities and or talents should be reviewed

What is so high about Rogue accuracy ? (compared to Ranger in particular)

Dirty Fighting (not acc but quite close) ? It is a lowish return on investment. Also Crits isn't the biggest part of Rogue DPS.

Persistant Distraction ? This one is cute, but technically is just a +6

Reckless Assault ? Bonus accuracy is suppressed by Devotion for the Faithful, a big drawback with a party since Devotion for the Faithful is such a "must have".

 

If we extend the "accuracy" topic to more general "chances of actually hitting", I think an underrated Rogue feature is Blunderbuss + Strikes. I you want to apply a condition, you have 6 rolls to do so. Fearsome Strike basically applies an "auto-hitting" -20 to all secondary defenses this way. Sap + Blunderbuss is an "automatic" target disabler as well as big damages spike as an alpha move.

Bonus point for doing it with Scon Mica's Roar.

 

But even that feels a bit lacking compared to Stunning Shot from ranger class, and its freaking reccursive Crowd Control. Ranger was so much buffed over the course of versions that it somewhat surpassed Rogue in their role.

3 hours ago, Chaospread said:

I played PoTD SOLO with Rogue and Paladin, I had less troubles with Rogue, but maybe it is my style of playing.

Paladin is kind of support, so I wouldn't expect to be brilliant in Solo. I don't expect classes to be very balanced for Solo anyway. 

3 hours ago, Chaospread said:

Fighter are underrated in my opinion, but I've never played it in SOLO so maybe I'm wrong.

[CLASS BUILD] The Unstoppable Wave (Siege Breaker Fighter) - Pillars of Eternity: Characters Builds, Strategies & the Unity Engine (Spoiler Warning!) - Obsidian Forum Community

I played this one, and it was very fun. Granted that a lots of tricks from this build could apply to Rogue as well (because of Deathblow).

Granted that at this time I didn't know about the secret of Unbending that I learnt later from PoE2.

Edited April 20, 2023 by Elric Galad

[Chaospread]

3 hours ago, Elric Galad said:

What is so high about Rogue accuracy ? (compared to Ranger in particular)

Dirty Fighting (not acc but quite close) ? It is a lowish return on investment. Also Crits isn't the biggest part of Rogue DPS.

Persistant Distraction ? This one is cute, but technically is just a +6

Reckless Assault ? Bonus accuracy is suppressed by Devotion for the Faithful, a big drawback with a party since Devotion for the Faithful is such a "must have".

Crits can be very important instead, my build on PotD crits a lot and is based on hit to crits conversion:

Moreover, see this run https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjbCuw0i5uk (by @baldurs_gate_2) and make your thoughts about.

Yes Reckless Assault is a plus for Rogue, Ranger doesn't have it and doesn't have Devotion for the Faithful and Paladin has lower ACC than Rogue, this point it's not a point IMHO.

Persistent distraction is useless, but I speak about SOLO, in a party a Rogue can be a good DPS... if a class can manage a PotD SOLO, in a party even more so, don't you think?

3 hours ago, Elric Galad said:

If we extend the "accuracy" topic to more general "chances of actually hitting", I think an underrated Rogue feature is Blunderbuss + Strikes. I you want to apply a condition, you have 6 rolls to do so. Fearsome Strike basically applies an "auto-hitting" -20 to all secondary defenses this way. Sap + Blunderbuss is an "automatic" target disabler as well as big damages spike as an alpha move.

Bonus point for doing it with Scon Mica's Roar.

Yea, very interesting combo, bravo!

3 hours ago, Elric Galad said:

But even that feels a bit lacking compared to Stunning Shot from ranger class, and its freaking reccursive Crowd Control. Ranger was so much buffed over the course of versions that it somewhat surpassed Rogue in their role.

Maybe we are saying two different things: I agree that ranger is better than rogue (in my opinion Ranger are underrated in this forum and in general), but I say that Rogue is effective also without the mod and not all of the mod is important to play Rogue, unless the 2 things I explained above

3 hours ago, Elric Galad said:

[CLASS BUILD] The Unstoppable Wave (Siege Breaker Fighter) - Pillars of Eternity: Characters Builds, Strategies & the Unity Engine (Spoiler Warning!) - Obsidian Forum Community

I played this one, and it was very fun. Granted that a lots of tricks from this build could apply to Rogue as well (because of Deathblow).

Granted that at this time I didn't know about the secret of Unbending that I learnt later from PoE2.

Edited 2 hours ago by Elric Galad

Oh, interesting... I play the Fighter in my first run (average difficulty in a party) and this class is also underrated in my opinion, a lot of defensive and offensive potential. What about unbending? In POE1 when a mob use unbending I even can't notice it, what is this "secret"? Thanks
 

[Chaospread]

Thinking about blunderbusses... you say Scon Mica's Roar I suppose for graze to hit conversion and further -5 to all defenses (plus -20 of secondary defenses) but also Silver Flash can be a tool of offense and defense with blind (-29 ACC, -20 Deflection) and Fulvano Blunderbuss is a very good CC item if you crit with it (and a Rogue with six shots at least one is a crit if you are not unlucky).

[Boeroer]

I've done a lot of playing with all classes in PoE and Rogue + Fighter are def. the weakest ones over the course of the a whole playthrough. Start really nice but fall flat on PotD. Mostly due to the lack of AoE. Rangers are also not fantastic bc- of the same problems - but better than Rogue and Fighter imo.
Usually the casters will steal the show. Even on the Rogue's home court, melee single target damage - a caster may overpower him (see Shapeshifting Druid with Avenging Storm), at least for a short time. And that guy would have a great deal of spells to unleash in tough encounters on top.   

I have tested countless character builds in special fights over and over again and Rogue as well as Fighter always were the hardest ones. BUT: that's often without using things like Shadowing Beyond which can be of course a great tool for a solo run.

I don't mean they are unplayable or anything - just less "potentially" potent on PoTD that the other classes in general. I still had very enjoyable Rogue and Fighter builds though, especially in a party where they could focus on certain special tasks where the lack of AoE didn't matter at all (like hunting enemy casters in the backline or so).   

Edited April 20, 2023 by Boeroer

[Elric Galad]

5 hours ago, Chaospread said:

Yes Reckless Assault is a plus for Rogue, Ranger doesn't have it and doesn't have Devotion for the Faithful and Paladin has lower ACC than Rogue, this point it's not a point IMHO.

Persistent distraction is useless, but I speak about SOLO, in a party a Rogue can be a good DPS... if a class can manage a PotD SOLO, in a party even more so, don't you think?

Yes, this is about Solo.

I consider the game to be balanced for party game, and in a party Ranger and Rogue would have same Acc in the endgame simply because Devotion for the Faithful is just mandatory for any power gaming party.

In Solo, Shadowing Beyond is kind of unique in term of general utility, but it is again much less relevant with a party.

5 hours ago, Chaospread said:

Maybe we are saying two different things: I agree that ranger is better than rogue (in my opinion Ranger are underrated in this forum and in general), but I say that Rogue is effective also without the mod and not all of the mod is important to play Rogue, unless the 2 things I explained above

My own criteria about balance is the following :

Is the class able to fullfill a particular role (or combinations of roles) better than anyone else in a party ?

Rogue is basically the only class that doesn't fullfill this criteria. Single target DPS : it is more or less equalled by Ranger, who also has better utilities. 
(not to mention Druid)

5 hours ago, Chaospread said:

Oh, interesting... I play the Fighter in my first run (average difficulty in a party) and this class is also underrated in my opinion, a lot of defensive and offensive potential. What about unbending? In POE1 when a mob use unbending I even can't notice it, what is this "secret"? Thanks
 

I'm not entirely sure because my analysis is based on PoE2 (June 24, 2020 post):

 

Melee Rogue is too weak on PotD Upscale - Pillars of Eternity: Characters Builds, Strategies & the Unity Engine (Spoiler Warning!) - Obsidian Forum Community

 

That being said, I remember a Fighter (the one that hold the redeemer) who displayed a similar behavior in PoE1.

And as a fact, you can find numerous PoE1 forum post that states that Unbending heals more that it displays (and scales with INT), maybe 100%, maybe even more.

For PoE1, I doubt anyone has made a full analysis.

 

Which leads Fighter to be better than anyone else at surviving damages. Which satisfies my criteria, while Rogue does not.

5 hours ago, Chaospread said:

Thinking about blunderbusses... you say Scon Mica's Roar I suppose for graze to hit conversion and further -5 to all defenses (plus -20 of secondary defenses) but also Silver Flash can be a tool of offense and defense with blind (-29 ACC, -20 Deflection) and Fulvano Blunderbuss is a very good CC item if you crit with it (and a Rogue with six shots at least one is a crit if you are not unlucky).

At some point, Scon's Mica Roar stacked its -5 all defenses penalties. Potential -30 all defenses. You can add either Blind, Sap or Fearsome strike. I'm not sure it is still true though. Graze to Hit conversion is mostly irrelevant (but well, it is there so why not).

[Boeroer]

1 hour ago, Elric Galad said:

At some point, Scon's Mica Roar stacked its -5 all defenses penalties. Potential -30 all defenses. 

Yes, it used to do that. You could stack Disoriented without a hard limit (only the duration made sure that the stacks woudn't get too high). Then it got nerfed so that the "Disorienting" debuff doesn't stack anymore (not even from different weapons who apply the same effect). I suspect one of my posts where I showed how to prolong the duration of Disoriented so that you could debuff most enemies to negative defenses was the trigger for this nerf.   

Edit: Ha, found a screenshot that I used in that thread but couldn't find the thread anymore:

Edited April 20, 2023 by Boeroer

[Elric Galad]

To be honnest, I wondered if this mod was enough to make Rogue "good enough" in order to avoid to release a PoE1 Balance Mod myself (as I did for PoE2, but in much less ambitious fashion since modding PoE1 is way less convenient).

Take into account that I just plan adjusting values, not adding a "new" effects since modding PoE1 is quite complex.

Basically, the change I have listed for Rogue (most important in bold):

• Sneak Attack : add +10% per 3 lvl beyond 1, up to 50+50=100% damages at lvl 16 (ensures Rogue S tier single target damage dealer)
• Dirty Fighting : 10%->15% crit (vicious fighting still +10% ; abilities are supposed to be worth more than talents, as for Fighter's Weapon mastery)
• Riposte : 20% on miss, 30% on graze -> 30% on miss, 30% on graze
• Deep wounds add +3 scaling per 6 lvl beyond 1 up to 9 raw damages/3s tick at level 13
• Finishing Blow : 2x -> 4x per Rest
• Fearsome Strike : 1x -> 4x per Rest
• Withering Strike : 1x -> 2x per Encounter
• Feign Death : Prone 10s -> 3s, invisible 6s -> 12s (increases spike damages through backstab, sort of god mode but still costs 3s of unability to act. It is meant to be Rogue strongest ability, their unique trait and trump card, in a similar fashion as Sacred Immolation or Twinned Arrows)

 

I don't plan to buff every meh ability of the game, or nerf some beloved OP abilities (Dragon Trashed is a classic  ) but only to balance Class and Races. Rogues would get by far the most changes.

Note that one of the general principles of this balance mod would be to increase the number of per Rest casts for all non spellcasters. One of the biggest strength of casters (Wiz, Priest, Druids) is that they have a lots of casts for boss fights, making them God tier for such battles. Increasing the number of Per Rest casts of martial classes would balance this a bit.  A lot of Per Rest abilities are actually quite good vs bosses (Unbending, Deprive the Unworthy, Finishing Blow), and I feel weird that they usually get 1-2 casts of them while casters get 4 casts on each Tier (not even counting mastery).

Apart for this, I plan to buff Fighter a bit, tune down a couple of Wiz/Priest spells and buff a couple of races. I will give more details on a dedicated thread.

I have no idea when I would be able to do that, but I have to get reviews while there are still a couple of experienced players on this forum.

[Chaospread]

7 hours ago, Elric Galad said:

• Sneak Attack : add +10% per 3 lvl beyond 1, up to 50+50=100% damages at lvl 16 (ensures Rogue S tier single target damage dealer)
• Dirty Fighting : 10%->15% crit (vicious fighting still +10% ; abilities are supposed to be worth more than talents, as for Fighter's Weapon mastery)
• Riposte : 20% on miss, 30% on graze -> 30% on miss, 30% on graze
• Deep wounds add +3 scaling per 6 lvl beyond 1 up to 9 raw damages/3s tick at level 13
• Finishing Blow : 2x -> 4x per Rest
• Fearsome Strike : 1x -> 4x per Rest
• Withering Strike : 1x -> 2x per Encounter
• Feign Death : Prone 10s -> 3s, invisible 6s -> 12s (increases spike damages through backstab, sort of god mode but still costs 3s of unability to act. It is meant to be Rogue strongest ability, their unique trait and trump card, in a similar fashion as Sacred Immolation or Twinned Arrows)

I'll do similar but with these exceptions:

• Finishing Blow : 2x -> 3x per Rest
• Fearsome Strike : 1x -> 1x per Ecounter
• Riposte: raw damage
• Deep wounds: too much 9 raw damage plus MIG bonus... instead fix the INT bug where higher INT means lesser damage. Max 6 raw damage at a certain level (13 could be ok), not 9

For the general discussion about Rogue, at the end you have persuaded me about Rogue be poor especially in a party, and in a party a Paladin is very good (in a party a Paladin is alwasy been my first tank ), but in a solo I was more comfortable with the Rogue rather than the Paladin, I guess that the higher Stealth of the Rogue and Shadowing Beyod made me aovid some difficult optional encounters... in a SOLO also stealth bonus is a plus

A paladin lack some CC in my opinion for an example Sacred Immolation should make less damage but cause some affliction also (perhaps blind?).

For the blunderbuss, I played only with nerfed Scon's Mica Roar, with the "new" one, maybe I'd prefer Silver Flash for your combo.

And yes, Urthal (the fighter with the Redeemer) was difficult to pull down as he heal himself very quickly!

I agree with @Boeroer about caster: wizard, priest, druid and cipher are very powerful at high levels, they should be nerfed after 9/12 levels and give them more cast the first 4/5 levels... A level 1 priest or wizard at level 1/2 can only Stealth and saying a prayer (and for a priest should be a good RPG moment by the way :D).