carnifex Posted June 11, 2004 Share Posted June 11, 2004 that's one more thing: devs don't care about what you like, but about what will sell the game! sw freaks and nerds won't be very happy to see both sides destroyed, or any other alternate ending. personally i think that's good idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blarghagh Posted June 11, 2004 Share Posted June 11, 2004 The world isn't dark or light, good or evil... for the most part it's just shades of grey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adria Teksuni Posted June 11, 2004 Share Posted June 11, 2004 Let's face it, neutral characters don't lend themselves well to Westerns, which is what the Star Wars setting really is. Even in Ep. IV, the good guys wore white, the bad guys wore black. Star Wars does not lend itself to the anti-hero characterization very well, as someone pointed out, the Dark Side is just too strong, and would quickly devour any anti-hero type Jedi, their rage and anger (the typical hallmarks of an anti-hero) would just be too strong. A Snake Pliskin character just wouldn't last long walking the fine line in a Force Adept game. In a non-Force user CRPG it would work quite well, I think. That, and you do have to take into account the Force itself, biological symbiotes aside. There is no neutral aspect of the Force. You have the light side and you have the dark side. This isn't AD&D where you have a variety of aligned deities to help you with your alignment, and as a Force user, you don't have the choice as to what mystical discipline you use. The Force is going to ultimately push you to make that choice, whether you are light or dark. I didn't see Qui Gon as a neutral character, I saw him as a very strongly light sided character, who just happened to have a different definition of what constituted violations of the Code than the Council. He never strove for "balance" between the light and dark sides, which is what a neutral character would want to do (again, see Snake Pliskin reference). He did what he thought was right, and he did it trying to set aside any emotion that would affect his decision. Naturally, I wasn't that crazy about the vast oversimplification of light and dark in KoTOR, but there were a lot of limitations that didn't allow for subtlety in a lot of ways, or a lot of alternate, yet still viable light/dark options. I think Obsidian is working on that with making a less thuggish type of darksider. At some point in any SW plot, as a Force User, you will have to make that ultimate decision whether you will be Light or Dark. Aside from it being tradition, it's the way the Force works. Never assume malice when stupidity is to blame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guns1inger Posted June 11, 2004 Author Share Posted June 11, 2004 Let's face it, neutral characters don't lend themselves well to Westerns, which is what the Star Wars setting really is. Even in Ep. IV, the good guys wore white, the bad guys wore black. Star Wars does not lend itself to the anti-hero characterization very well, as someone pointed out, the Dark Side is just too strong, and would quickly devour any anti-hero type Jedi, their rage and anger (the typical hallmarks of an anti-hero) would just be too strong. A Snake Pliskin character just wouldn't last long walking the fine line in a Force Adept game. In a non-Force user CRPG it would work quite well, I think. That, and you do have to take into account the Force itself, biological symbiotes aside. There is no neutral aspect of the Force. You have the light side and you have the dark side. This isn't AD&D where you have a variety of aligned deities to help you with your alignment, and as a Force user, you don't have the choice as to what mystical discipline you use. The Force is going to ultimately push you to make that choice, whether you are light or dark. I didn't see Qui Gon as a neutral character, I saw him as a very strongly light sided character, who just happened to have a different definition of what constituted violations of the Code than the Council. He never strove for "balance" between the light and dark sides, which is what a neutral character would want to do (again, see Snake Pliskin reference). He did what he thought was right, and he did it trying to set aside any emotion that would affect his decision. Naturally, I wasn't that crazy about the vast oversimplification of light and dark in KoTOR, but there were a lot of limitations that didn't allow for subtlety in a lot of ways, or a lot of alternate, yet still viable light/dark options. I think Obsidian is working on that with making a less thuggish type of darksider. At some point in any SW plot, as a Force User, you will have to make that ultimate decision whether you will be Light or Dark. Aside from it being tradition, it's the way the Force works. I have to admit that when I posted this thead, it was just something that occured to me and I didn't really think much about it before posting. But from what you've said, I've kinda switched views on the thing. I think you're absolutely right about the force not having any sort of middle ground. Any real effort to create that sort of neutrality in the force would come off as a cheap ploy or a gimmik. And that's why we are limited to dark or light Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Child of Flame Posted June 11, 2004 Share Posted June 11, 2004 It's all about neutral (true) good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judge Hades Posted June 11, 2004 Share Posted June 11, 2004 Yea, right B) That's why your on this forum. And Star Wars sucks for a CRPG because it favors having a good or evil side? I thought that your supposed to have consequences for your actions in CRPGs.. I hang around on Obsidian's forums becuase I liked the peeps previous work at Black Isle nd looking forward to their next games after KotOR2. Consequences for playing your character are indeed good to have, but what will the consequence of the PC if he or she never does anything significantly good or evil? What is the consequence for the PC who stays on the fence making sure the Light or the Dark never gets an upperhand? Think on that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adria Teksuni Posted June 11, 2004 Share Posted June 11, 2004 Which would be an excellent plot vehicle in that non-Jedi CRPG you're waiting for. Never assume malice when stupidity is to blame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judge Hades Posted June 11, 2004 Share Posted June 11, 2004 Which will never happen because it wouldn't be "Star Wars" enough for the freaks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adria Teksuni Posted June 11, 2004 Share Posted June 11, 2004 Which is a damned shame...ah well. Never assume malice when stupidity is to blame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judge Hades Posted June 11, 2004 Share Posted June 11, 2004 It would have been a great idea and bring the game to a level where those who hate force using aspects of Star Wars to a point of actually enjoying the game. Ah well, indeed. Bring on the Munchkin Lords. :angry: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuckeyeRowe Posted June 14, 2004 Share Posted June 14, 2004 Why are we limited to light or dark? As a Jedi, you can use your powers for the good of the galaxy (saving people; hacking Sith; ect.) or you can use your powers to hurt, have power over, or take control of people. Those are two distinct paths. If you don't help the woman and her child who are being attacked (a LS thing to do), you stay nuetral. If you don't use the force to force a guy to give you his credits or do want you want (a DS thing to do), you stay nuetral. In the end, to be nuetral you don't do anything that would require you to use your force or lightsaber. And even "nuetral" people like Jolee drew his lightsaber against the Sith, and Han Solo stopped Vader from turning Luke into space dust. For a character to be apart of the Star Wars story, you must fight in the war - for good or for evil. Sure you can be a bystander, but then you are not apart of the "war". Maybe that's one reason why your KOTOR II character left the order - she/he wanted to be "nuetral". Bottom line - either you fight to save the galaxy or take it. You don't fight it to "half take it over and half free it". A gray character would fight for balance between the two, and fighting both sides effectivley makes you dark (fighting against the light - the dark can fight against the dark {as the Sith always do} but the light cannot fight against the light). "Working for Davik was like driving a spike in the side of your head. Sure, you got something new up there, but in the end, you've lost something as well." - Canderous "But I though Jedi weren't allowed to love." - Handmaiden "But some do it anyway. We call it pulling a Bindo." - The Exile Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EnderAndrew Posted June 14, 2004 Share Posted June 14, 2004 People keep complaining that you can't be neutral in KOTOR. Jolee was a "grey". And you could choose to ignore side-quests all day long. You could alternate been good and evil deeds. That path was available. It's just not as interesting or rewarding. If you chose as a player to go to one side, and weren't happy, I'm sorry. However the option for neutrality was there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OLD SKOOL WHEELMAN Posted June 15, 2004 Share Posted June 15, 2004 Hit the nail on the head... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanschu Posted June 15, 2004 Share Posted June 15, 2004 Yep, its Star Wars and that is why it is crap-ass setting to make into a CRPG. ??? but you still play it anyway? Played the first one twice now its gathering dust. Good game with no significant staying power. I won't be getting the sequel. If I get the urge to plar a SW game again I'll install KotOR again. You're gonna play this game and you know it. No one wastes this much time on a forum for a game that they have no interest in whatsoever. At worst, you'll play it just to see how "awful" it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanschu Posted June 15, 2004 Share Posted June 15, 2004 that's one more thing: devs don't care about what you like, but about what will sell the game!sw freaks and nerds won't be very happy to see both sides destroyed, or any other alternate ending. personally i think that's good idea. Quite the paradox don't you think. They will do what will sell the game...which means that they probably do in fact care about what we like, because if we like it...we'll buy it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diogo Ribeiro Posted June 15, 2004 Share Posted June 15, 2004 That this is Star Wars shouldn't excuse the theoretical absence of a 'grey' path. Morality is always a wide spectrum, and trying to simplify it to Light and Dark, or Good and Evil, isn't right. There will always be people who will, to the best of their ability, try to remain neutral, even in the SW universe. If they achieve it or not is a different matter. And if they do achieve that neutrality, it shouldn't be by a clearly defined 'path'. That's one of the problems with assuming that everything must follow a path. Morally ambiguous situations can arise, and black and white situations can present a grey result, instead of a simple black and white result. Good intentions can go to hell and make a person lose faith in themselves, while evil intentions can place characters in a situation which would make them be perceived as good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carnifex Posted June 15, 2004 Share Posted June 15, 2004 that's one more thing: devs don't care about what you like, but about what will sell the game!sw freaks and nerds won't be very happy to see both sides destroyed, or any other alternate ending. personally i think that's good idea. Quite the paradox don't you think. They will do what will sell the game...which means that they probably do in fact care about what we like, because if we like it...we'll buy it. no it's not paradox.what do you mean by "us".doesn't that speak for yourself, me or few who liked that idea? i mentioned sw nerds! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fardragon Posted June 15, 2004 Share Posted June 15, 2004 Why would a non-nerd be on this forum? Everyone knows Science Fiction is really cool. You know what PoE really needs? Spaceships! There isn't any game that wouldn't be improved by a space combat minigame. Adding one to PoE would send sales skyrocketing, and ensure the game was remembered for all time!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carnifex Posted June 15, 2004 Share Posted June 15, 2004 Why would a non-nerd be on this forum? :D :D :D :D :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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