Ukraine Conflict

[xzar_monty]

Yep. And you ought to be educated enough to make good choices based on the knowledge that there are precedents.

[Malcador]

On 12/8/2022 at 5:45 PM, Hurlshort said:

It's fair to say it was dumb to bring weed with her to Russia, but it's a bit much to say she deserves 9 years in prison for it. The reasonable punishment is confiscation, deportation, and maybe a travel ban. There are a lot of people in the comments section of Fox News and Facebook that love to spout "She broke the law! Let her rot!"  

Funny too they care so much about  Whelan then, with his record in the military.

https://www.npr.org/2022/12/09/1141589248/ukraine-culture-boycott-nutcracker-tchaikovsky

This was amusing.

[Hurlshort]

1 hour ago, Malcador said:

Funny too they care so much about  Whelan then, with his record in the military.

https://www.npr.org/2022/12/09/1141589248/ukraine-culture-boycott-nutcracker-tchaikovsky

This was amusing.

Whelan's brother did point out the hypocrisy of Trump, which is nice to see.

https://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/3769349-paul-whelans-brother-slams-trump-after-prisoner-swap-criticism/

[Mamoulian War]

Current mood about Russia in Kazakhstan.

 

[xzar_monty]

Like Anne Applebaum noted, since the breakdown of the Soviet Union, Russia has had ample opportunity to reflect upon why its immediate neighbors tend to either hate or fear it -- and indeed often do both. This still hasn't happened: there appears to be no capacity for self-reflection in "the Russian entity", i.e. the nation as represented by those in power. What has increased is the Stalinist rewriting of history. I very recently listened to a presentation on what the Russian children are taught about WW2, and it's not pretty. As is to be expected, everything that is even slightly uncomfortable is simply ignored, for instance. There's no question that countries in general tend to do something like this, but there are degrees, and Russia is an extreme.

(Interestingly, Great Britain has also been particularly poor in reflecting upon its past. But it's both less militant and much more trustworthy these days.)

 

EDIT: Speaking of those fires in Russia, I have just read that Russia is among the world leaders when it comes to accidental major fires. There are over 150 000 of them per year, and fatalities from fires are eight times that of what they are in the neghboring Finland. I cannot verify these numbers because I don't have proper sources.

Edited December 11, 2022 by xzar_monty

[BruceVC]

1 hour ago, xzar_monty said:

Like Anne Applebaum noted, since the breakdown of the Soviet Union, Russia has had ample opportunity to reflect upon why its immediate neighbors tend to either hate or fear it -- and indeed often do both. This still hasn't happened: there appears to be no capacity for self-reflection in "the Russian entity", i.e. the nation as represented by those in power. What has increased is the Stalinist rewriting of history. I very recently listened to a presentation on what the Russian children are taught about WW2, and it's not pretty. As is to be expected, everything that is even slightly uncomfortable is simply ignored, for instance. There's no question that countries in general tend to do something like this, but there are degrees, and Russia is an extreme.

(Interestingly, Great Britain has also been particularly poor in reflecting upon its past. But it's both less militant and much more trustworthy these days.)

 

EDIT: Speaking of those fires in Russia, I have just read that Russia is among the world leaders when it comes to accidental major fires. There are over 150 000 of them per year, and fatalities from fires are eight times that of what they are in the neghboring Finland. I cannot verify these numbers because I don't have proper sources.

In what what way is Great Britain poor in reflecting on its past, for example they dont deny Colonialism and the injustices of slavery? I sometimes hear that criricism towards the UK and I'm not sure what they mean?

[Lexx]

Sometimes it feels to me as if Germany is the only country that self-reflected and tried to change itself after ww2. Kinda curious why that is.

[xzar_monty]

10 minutes ago, Lexx said:

Sometimes it feels to me as if Germany is the only country that self-reflected and tried to change itself after ww2. Kinda curious why that is.

When it comes to personal psychology, the author David Foster Wallace once pointed out that transformation is often a result of exhaustion more than anything else. In other words, once your way of being in the world has caused you so much suffering that you can't take it anymore, you are ready to change. As long as there's an escape or an excuse, you will hold on to the old. (Interestingly, some former addicts have been known to wish that current addicts reach their absolute bottom as soon as possible, because that is where they either change or die.[*])

For Germany, the defeat was so comprehensive and the results of their former policy were so obviously so horrifying that they were ready for change. That is one possible way of looking at it.

 

[*] I don't know if you know The Sandman comic series by Neil Gaiman. That whole story arc is essentially a description of how one must either change or die.

@BruceVC: Imperial attitudes and imperial superiority are still rife in England. That's just one example. There's quite a lot of sadness in that, too. Like they sing in that one song by Suede: "You belong to a world that's gone / It's the English disease".

Edited December 11, 2022 by xzar_monty

[BruceVC]

1 hour ago, Lexx said:

Sometimes it feels to me as if Germany is the only country that self-reflected and tried to change itself after ww2. Kinda curious why that is.

You ask a very interesting and nuanced question that I have followed various debates around  for 12-15 years 

And its great that you asking this question as a German citizen. I want to provide you some feedback but before I do I just want to clarify a few things. Germany is an excellent example of how a country can recreate itself after a dark history and I admire the economic and social success of Germany since WW2 and it achieved this without becoming a military superpower 

What self-reflection do you believe the likes of other EU countries, like the UK and France, should go through or should have gone through after WW2? Because both these countries started ending and did end Colonialism after WW2 

Both these countries knew that Colonialism was wrong and not sustainable and no one defends slavery anymore. So Im genuinely interested in what changes you are talking about ?

 

 

[BruceVC]

1 hour ago, xzar_monty said:

 

@BruceVC: Imperial attitudes and imperial superiority are still rife in England. That's just one example. There's quite a lot of sadness in that, too. Like they sing in that one song by Suede: "You belong to a world that's gone / It's the English disease".

But can you be more specific and give examples, I still not sure what you mean?

[Mamoulian War]

1 hour ago, Lexx said:

Sometimes it feels to me as if Germany is the only country that self-reflected and tried to change itself after ww2. Kinda curious why that is.

I think, Japan might be second example as well. There were few attempts at self-reflection after ww2 in eastern europe as well, but they were all crushed by Soviet occupation.

[Elerond]

1 hour ago, BruceVC said:

You ask a very interesting and nuanced question that I have followed various debates around  for 12-15 years 

And its great that you asking this question as a German citizen. I want to provide you some feedback but before I do I just want to clarify a few things. Germany is an excellent example of how a country can recreate itself after a dark history and I admire the economic and social success of Germany since WW2 and it achieved this without becoming a military superpower 

What self-reflection do you believe the likes of other EU countries, like the UK and France, should go through or should have gone through after WW2? Because both these countries started ending and did end Colonialism after WW2 

Both these countries knew that Colonialism was wrong and not sustainable and no one defends slavery anymore. So Im genuinely interested in what changes you are talking about ?

 

 

Native people of French Guiana, French Polynesia, Martinique, Guadeloupe, Mayotte, New Caledonia, Réunion, Saint Barthélemy, Saint Martin, Saint Pierre and Miquelon and Wallis and Futuna probably would disagree with that sentiment. 

There are also some people in British Virgin Islands, Cayman Islands, Falkland Islands, Gibraltar (especially after brexit),  Anguilla, Bermuda,  Montserrat,  Pitcairn, Henderson, Ducie and Oeno Islands,  Saint Helena, Ascension and Tristan da Cunha, South Georgia and the South Sandwich Islands who also disagree with the sentiment.

 

[xzar_monty]

1 hour ago, Mamoulian War said:

I think, Japan might be second example as well. There were few attempts at self-reflection after ww2 in eastern europe as well, but they were all crushed by Soviet occupation.

Japan is, once again, a peculiar case. There have been changes, but if you look at the atrocities committed by the Japanese and the ways these have been handled, the process isn't very good. Think of the question of "comfort women", for instance. The relations between Japan and South Korea have been very strained because of this, and Japan has been anything but forthright about it all. (Japan also continues to be quite racist, but I'm not sure whether this is entirely the same question.)

As for Eastern Europe, you are indeed quite right. There is the old joke about Russians being tortured in Hell, and when one of them manages to escape, the other Russians pull him back in because they can't stand the idea of him escaping suffering. This is approximately how it was with Eastern Europe: the Soviets weren't free, so they didn't allow anyone else to be free, either, if it was in their power to do anything about it. Funny that you should use the word "crushed", because there's a book called Iron Curtain: The Crushing of Eastern Europe 1944-1956 by Anne Applebaum.

[xzar_monty]

Here's an extremely strange coincidence, I wonder why stuff like this happens these days. I started studying the Ukrainian language today, using the Duolingo application, if only to learn the Cyrillic alphabet. So I'm doing these easy exercises designed to teach you the abc, and the very first four-letter combination that the application asks me to type in Cyrillic just happens to be, crikey I don't why, it happens to be... NATO.

[Malcador]

I had to translate Ukraine or Kiev a lot more this year than any other in the Russian courses, just the early ones. Very subtle, hah.

 

[Chilloutman]

4 hours ago, Lexx said:

Sometimes it feels to me as if Germany is the only country that self-reflected and tried to change itself after ww2. Kinda curious why that is.

because you got beaten, easy

[BruceVC]

2 hours ago, Elerond said:

Native people of French Guiana, French Polynesia, Martinique, Guadeloupe, Mayotte, New Caledonia, Réunion, Saint Barthélemy, Saint Martin, Saint Pierre and Miquelon and Wallis and Futuna probably would disagree with that sentiment. 

There are also some people in British Virgin Islands, Cayman Islands, Falkland Islands, Gibraltar (especially after brexit),  Anguilla, Bermuda,  Montserrat,  Pitcairn, Henderson, Ducie and Oeno Islands,  Saint Helena, Ascension and Tristan da Cunha, South Georgia and the South Sandwich Islands who also disagree with the sentiment.

 

Which one of these countries wants independence from France or the UK in the same way that African countries got independence from the 1960's

Just select one or 2 and I will read the links. Because most of these countries I know about are happy with the government structures with France or the UK  

[Elerond]

8 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

Which one of these countries wants independence from France or the UK in the same way that African countries got independence from the 1960's

Just select one or 2 and I will read the links. Because most of these countries I know about are happy with the government structures with France or the UK  

All of them (when speaking of native population, in most of them french and british people make majority of population), making them independence these days almost impossible

EDIT:

France assassinated leaders of independence movements in Africa way after WW2. UK was not much nicer to its colonies. They just didn't have resource to keep bigger territories.

 

 

 

Edited December 11, 2022 by Elerond

[BruceVC]

1 hour ago, Elerond said:

All of them (when speaking of native population, in most of them french and british people make majority of population), making them independence these days almost impossible

EDIT:

France assassinated leaders of independence movements in Africa way after WW2. UK was not much nicer to its colonies. They just didn't have resource to keep bigger territories.

 

 

 

I dont think we have same definition of historical Colonialism and how and why it ended

Here is the official definition, you may have a  different definition?

https://www.thoughtco.com/colonialism-definition-and-examples-5112779

To quote from the link "Colonialism is the practice of one country taking full or partial political control of another country and occupying it with settlers for purposes of profiting from its resources and economy "

So Colonialism is about economic exploitation and it was driven primarily by European countries. None of those countries are examples are exploitation. The local citizens are indigenous and expats and they benefit from the economy in the same way. Colonialism ended in Africa because both France and UK realised it wasnt morally right and it wasn't sustainable and local citizens wanted freedom from being controlled by Europe 

If you disagree then  post links from any of the countries you listed  where local people have been demanding independence like we saw in Africa

You seem to be assuming that all the countries you listed want complete independence from France or UK and I dont think they do?

 

 

[Elerond]

31 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

I dont think we have same definition of historical Colonialism and how and why it ended

Here is the official definition, you may have a  different definition?

https://www.thoughtco.com/colonialism-definition-and-examples-5112779

To quote from the link "Colonialism is the practice of one country taking full or partial political control of another country and occupying it with settlers for purposes of profiting from its resources and economy "

So Colonialism is about economic exploitation and it was driven primarily by European countries. None of those countries are examples are exploitation. The local citizens are indigenous and expats and they benefit from the economy in the same way. Colonialism ended in Africa because both France and UK realised it wasnt morally right and it wasn't sustainable and local citizens wanted freedom from being controlled by Europe 

If you disagree then  post links from any of the countries you listed  where local people have been demanding independence like we saw in Africa

You seem to be assuming that all the countries you listed want complete independence from France or UK and I dont think they do?

 

 

They are all occupied countries, which France and UK have exploited and still do exploit.

UK's overseas territories still don't have representation in parliament of UK, even though there should be , irrevocably guaranteed for all UK's citizens to have the same rights and representation they would have if born in England. So those territories are in subordinate states to main UK and therefore they are colonies.

France gives better representation to its overseas territories, but they also lack equality to main France and are therefore colonies.

 

EDIT: continuation of this topic belongs to general politics thread not here Ukraine thread.

Edited December 11, 2022 by Elerond

[Zoraptor]

5 hours ago, Elerond said:

There are also some people in British Virgin Islands, Cayman Islands, Falkland Islands, Gibraltar (especially after brexit),  Anguilla, Bermuda,  Montserrat,  Pitcairn, Henderson, Ducie and Oeno Islands,  Saint Helena, Ascension and Tristan da Cunha, South Georgia and the South Sandwich Islands who also disagree with the sentiment.

About half of those were genuine terra nullia and have no native population (Falklands, St Helena, Ascension, Pitcairn (and friends; natives died out before european discovery), South Georgia and South Sandwich). Most of them have devolved rule too, even Pitcairn and pals with its few dozen people. You can supplement that with Diego Garcia though, since the treatment of its native population- well within living memory- alone more than compensates for any claims of having left the colonial legacy behind. Even worse, they were depopulated specifically to benefit the US, not even the UK.

Should also add that the 'some people' in the case of the Falklands amounts to literally three people out of near 2000 voters, according to the 2013 referendum.

Edited December 11, 2022 by Zoraptor

[Elerond]

Yep, Israel's jewish colonies in Palestinian also fully support jewish control of those areas.

[Chilloutman]

11 minutes ago, Elerond said:

Yep, Israel's jewish colonies in Palestinian also fully support jewish control of those areas.

Didn't they started war on Israel prior to those colonies being there and lost it?

[Zoraptor]

Israel started the 6 day war when they bombed the Egyptian air force. The Israeli claim they were attacked by Jordan and Syria so seizing their territory is fine is rather like saying that France and Britain brutally attacked Germany in 1939- you have to ignore Germany attacking Poland first. Of course, Germany/ Israel only did that because Poland/ Egypt was planning on invading them... Even worse than Poland the Egyptians were so prepared for that imminent invasion that they lost in, well, 6 days hence the name of the war.

41 minutes ago, Elerond said:

Yep, Israel's jewish colonies in Palestinian also fully support jewish control of those areas.

Not really the same thing, since Palestinians 100% existed- and have essentially none of the freedoms Israeli Jews have. I'm not a great fan of BOTs or the British history of colonialism in general, but that comparison is not even close to like to like. Indeed, as you can tell from the names most of the islands that weren't terra nullius had the initial colonisation (and inevitable atrocities vs natives) carried out by France or Spain, not Britain.

Gibraltar has been part of the UK/GB longer than it was part of Spain and by a pretty hefty amount too, about +50%/ one century. The troll option would be to give Gibraltar back to the Moroccans so the Spanish can complain about that (while, of course, they are still maintaining Ceuta and Melilla as exclaves in Africa, for maximum irony).

Falklands is already held by its native population, as are all the other ones that were genuine terra nullius. No one to hand them back to, all you could do is give them to someone geographically close. Pitcairn etc would probably be fine going to us, I doubt St Helena would be keen on going to... Angola? though. And they're too small to be independent.

[Mamoulian War]

@BruceVC not wanting do derail it any further, but because you asked, New Caledonia is a prime example of what you are asking. Indigenous Kanak(?) people want independence from France, but they will probably never get it, due to French and other Caucasians have majority there.