Pathfinder Wrath of the Righteous, Part 5

[Gorth]

10 hours ago, Gromnir said:

the thing to recall 'bout finnean is that at your current upgrade stage, he is a +3 brilliant energy, heartseeker weapon, yes?  is swell unless you attack an enemy which has no heart. attack incorporeal or golems and get a message that the weapon passes through harmlessly is gonna be disconcerting if you are unaware o' the limited handicap o' brilliant energy.

You don't say

I was scratching my head at some point when Finnean just kept passing through enemies. Gave my barbarian a spare weapon for the rest of the fight. He may not be super proficient in longsword (I think it was either a +1 or +2 that I for some reason was lugging around in my inventory to sell later). I seriously thought Finnean was going through some kind of existential crisis when he no longer connected with the physical world

It only took seven tries to get playful darkness down. Used Guarded Hearth, Smites, Bonds, Banes, Mark of Justice, Aru's bond ability, Death Wards, a few summons (my pet demon that Ember summons from her belt is just brilliant) and a handful pillars summoned by Sosiel. I think most of the attempts were trying to figure out how to kite the enemy to the pillars (without getting my party killed in the process).

That harpy Galfrey is still keeping the door closed though, so now I'm in a place called The Nexus. I'm probably going to hell for this...

 

Edit: Also, the Trickster Spellbook is growing in hilariousness. I didn't try to cast Hallucinogenic Cloud or Bears Grace on him (nor Fish missiles etc. as I think his resistance would make it an exercise in futility), but I did cast Glorious Beard on Seelah and Almost Greater Invisibility on myself as well as Summon Monster Zero. Maybe I should have cast the beard spell on Sosiel instead. He could use a bit of facial hair

 

Edit2: For the experienced Tricksters out there, which tricks makes most sense? I currently give him Athletics because he already has a very high athletic skill point level, so leveraging that seemed like the logical thing to do for a barbarian, but would it have been more beneficial to pick another skill to focus on?

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

2 hours ago, Gorth said:

For the experienced Tricksters out there, which tricks makes most sense? I currently give him Athletics because he already has a very high athletic skill point level, so leveraging that seemed like the logical thing to do for a barbarian, but would it have been more beneficial to pick another skill to focus on?

Take a look: https://www.neoseeker.com/pathfinder-wrath-of-the-righteous/guides/Ascension#Mythic_Trick

So first of all there are several Mythic Tricks that have nothing to do with their associated skill. Since you're running a Barbarian Mythic Trick Athletics can get you +5 BAB, which is another attack and higher accuracy. Other than that Arcana maybe? Getting two extra effects and a +1 on your gear is pretty good. And of course Perception to 2, so your crew can grab the special feats that break the game. I think the Trickster has the most options by the numbers so just go through everything and come up with what works best for your build.

[uuuhhii]

perception 2 possibly the best

[InsaneCommander]

Stormlord’s Resolve granted Ember several Lightning spells so I didn’t need to rest.

The first attempt against the Hundred guy was a massacre. On the second try I prepared first, the traditional Webs and Greases, just in case one of the enemies fell for it. I summoned some creatures and once the battle began I sent my character and Aru to disable the devices. They were both invisible and Aru didn’t get stuck in the Web and Grease. My character has the boots of Freedom of Movement so she was ok.

After that I used Dazzling Display to disperse the enemies while Sosiel and Seelah healed the party with Channel Energy. And Nenio successfully polymorphed Hundred guy into a dog. I also cast other spells just to humiliate him. Then I just killed the remaining enemies one at a time while the boss took a nap on a puddle of grease.

[Gorth]

4 hours ago, InsaneCommander said:

Stormlord’s Resolve granted Ember several Lightning spells so I didn’t need to rest.

The first attempt against the Hundred guy was a massacre. On the second try I prepared first, the traditional Webs and Greases, just in case one of the enemies fell for it. I summoned some creatures and once the battle began I sent my character and Aru to disable the devices. They were both invisible and Aru didn’t get stuck in the Web and Grease. My character has the boots of Freedom of Movement so she was ok.

After that I used Dazzling Display to disperse the enemies while Sosiel and Seelah healed the party with Channel Energy. And Nenio successfully polymorphed Hundred guy into a dog. I also cast other spells just to humiliate him. Then I just killed the remaining enemies one at a time while the boss took a nap on a puddle of grease.

I was a bit lazy and after disabling the two closest traps, had Ember mass dimension door my party to the rear (to disable the rear traps), then spam chain lightning like there was no tomorrow. With elemental affinity: electricity, she's surprisingly effective at overcoming resistances. That was meta gaming a bit, because I knew I needed to hit enemies in there with various lightning to overcome regeneration (which wiped me for good in my first visit). Stormlord's Resolve was definitely an unexpected bonus. I had resigned myself to just spam lightning bolt as spontaneous spells with Ember and maybe use a few lightning wands on other party members. You hear me Seelah's horse? There is something for you to learn how to use!... (as well as elemental resistance electricity, stone skins etc.)

 

Edit: As for successfully casting polymorph on him... omg

[bugarup]

3 hours ago, uuuhhii said:

perception 2 possibly the best

Yep, this one is way above others as it allows the party to take trickster's feats, meaning you can give little miss Hellfire McRay those "Improved improved mighty thrice improved again" criticals, also much fun can be had with "Completely normal spell". Arcana 1 and 2 good if Charname is party's identifier, persuasion's good for an intimidator (if it works yet? Because quite a few Trickster's tricks did nothing for a long time, not certain if they got unbugged). 

[xzar_monty]

9 hours ago, majestic said:

The easiest way that is pretty much always doable (at least pre-EE, no idea about any changes) is to turn off XP sharing until you have a full party, reach level three in the Shield Maze*, give Lann a Divine Hunter level and pick the Leopard companion. Buff it with Camellia, send it to facetank the Water Elemental and win.

Right. Thanks.

This kind of demonstrates why I don't feel like the Unfair difficulty is a great idea (for me!). You really do need to make a fairly specific set of choices to be able to compete (perhaps there are several possible sets, but not that many). It makes me feel like the Unfair difficulty is a battle against the game mechanics (essentially, math), not against what happens to be put against you in the game, if you get my drift.

But thank you both, you and @Gromnir, your answers were good.

I continue to play on Core because it requires some planning and guile, which I enjoy, while freeing me from the necessity of planning everything Just Right.

[majestic]

7 hours ago, bugarup said:

Yep, this one is way above others as it allows the party to take trickster's feats, meaning you can give little miss Hellfire McRay those "Improved improved mighty thrice improved again" criticals, also much fun can be had with "Completely normal spell". Arcana 1 and 2 good if Charname is party's identifier, persuasion's good for an intimidator (if it works yet? Because quite a few Trickster's tricks did nothing for a long time, not certain if they got unbugged). 

Yeah, Perception 2 is pretty much a fixture in any Trickster run. 

Persuasion 3 is useful for builds that stack any possible bonus for intimidation. That is a fun build, but it also highlights how ludicrous the game design is. Basically one ends up taking a single level of Cross-Blooded Sorcerer for the Serpentine and Undead bloodlines, and adds a level of Witch for a Raven familiar, stacks STR and CHA enhancements with Indimidating Prowess, and so on and so forth. 

Either way, making use of most of the Trickster stuff requires in-depth knowledge of the game and available items, but if applied correctly it really is game-breaking. 

6 hours ago, xzar_monty said:

This kind of demonstrates why I don't feel like the Unfair difficulty is a great idea (for me!). You really do need to make a fairly specific set of choices to be able to compete (perhaps there are several possible sets, but not that many).

Yes. For all the debate going on in here about how to best utilize Arue, on a full Unfair run, unless you want the experience to be even more frustrating than it already is, most of your group will consist of optimized mercenaries, and it does not matter at all how you use Arue, because she just stays at home. The real difficulty of Unfair runs is less in the bosses and really more in the masses of enemies that spawn and swarm your party, and that they deal so much damage that even a random hit from an enemy archer can one-shot your backline. 

One of the hardest points of an Unfair run is Sosiel's graveyard quest (even doing it later). The zombies spawn on top of your party and proceed to kill characters in one hit, and you maybe cannot even react to them. Stat priorities shift from regular games at Normal or even Core. @Gromnir already mentioned improving one's initiative roll as a good way to make the game more controllable. Optimizing initiative is not a nice to have on Unfair, it is a necessity.

Stacking spell damage through items and bloodlines is not optional. The quicker you can clear screens of enemies, the less chance they have to randomly chunk Ember into tiny little Ember bits. Last Stand is a staple of Unfair builds, as is the aforementioned Diehard feat on animal companions. Spells not affected by enemy Spell Resistance are king. Animal companions that are there to protect their riders also often just take Improved Unarmed Combat to get to Crane Style. Iron Will and Improved Iron will help with preventing involuntary dismounting, which prett much is a death sentence. Oh hello there, little swarm. Gibber. Reload.   

6 hours ago, xzar_monty said:

It makes me feel like the Unfair difficulty is a battle against the game mechanics (essentially, math), not against what happens to be put against you in the game, if you get my drift.

It is, and I'm never going to play a full game on Unfair again. Ugh.

On a general note for the thread, has anyone tried playing a Sensei? Senseis get the Bard's Song ability and can make their Ki Powers apply to all party members at level six. How about a mercenary that can give out True Strike (until the Ki Pool is depleted). You can cast other fun stuff like Barkskin and Restoration too. Best thing about is that you can stop with the monk levels once you're happy with your Ki powers and Inspire Courage bonus and add something else. There's no spellcasting to brick without added levels, so slapping Slayer levels on the character for some sneak damage and Study would not be the worst. 

Some Fighter levels for Fighter's Tactics perhaps, then use a BFT to make it go brrrrrrr. 

Has someone tried the Elemental Barrage Geniekind cheese with the EE yet? Was that really fixed?

Edited October 5, 2022 by majestic

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

46 minutes ago, majestic said:

On a general note for the thread, has anyone tried playing a Sensei?

Yes. I can see the appeal of it, but personally I didn't think it's a good substitute for a real bard and it lost too much monk stuff like speed and flurry. It's still a good tank with the crane style chain though.

1 hour ago, majestic said:

Has someone tried the Elemental Barrage Geniekind cheese with the EE yet? Was that really fixed?

I've been using a mod that already turns the trigger for elemental barrage into a spell, so I can't say. What I will say is that it's classic Owlcat for an ability intended for caster synergy got used as something to abuse with elemental lashes on weapons.

[Gromnir]

1 hour ago, majestic said:

Has someone tried the Elemental Barrage Geniekind cheese with the EE yet? Was that really fixed?

haven't specific used geniekind as yet, but am able to confirm elemental weapon damage is no procing elemental barrage. 

HA! good Fun!

[InsaneCommander]

11 hours ago, Gorth said:

I was a bit lazy and after disabling the two closest traps, had Ember mass dimension door my party to the rear (to disable the rear traps), then spam chain lightning like there was no tomorrow. With elemental affinity: electricity, she's surprisingly effective at overcoming resistances. That was meta gaming a bit, because I knew I needed to hit enemies in there with various lightning to overcome regeneration (which wiped me for good in my first visit). Stormlord's Resolve was definitely an unexpected bonus. I had resigned myself to just spam lightning bolt as spontaneous spells with Ember and maybe use a few lightning wands on other party members. You hear me Seelah's horse? There is something for you to learn how to use!... (as well as elemental resistance electricity, stone skins etc.)

Edit: As for successfully casting polymorph on him... omg

Apparently it is possible to Dimension Door into the shielded area where the boss is. I had a Dimension Door, Mass scroll, but I didn't consider this idea.

[Agiel]

In honour of the release of the Enhanced Edition I got off my lazy bum to come up with this:

As many players noted how incongruous it was that casting a spell that consigns the souls of its victims to flames of eternal woe doesn't shift alignment one iota.

I initially wanted to draw Daeran and Sosiel in place of Arushalae and Seelah, but then remembered that they too could cast Hellfire Ray.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

11 minutes ago, Agiel said:

In honour of the release of the Enhanced Edition I got off my lazy bum to come up with this:

As many players noted how incongruous it was that casting a spell that consigns the souls of its victims to flames of eternal woe doesn't shift alignment one iota.

I initially wanted to draw Daeran and Sosiel in place of Arushalae and Seelah, but then remembered that they too could cast Hellfire Ray.

I think spells not shifting alignment is a good thing mechanically and a hilarious thing narratively. Especially for Hellfire Ray, because while the thought of the redeemer of all sending everyone she fights to hell is funny, Ember doesn't get a better blast spell.

[majestic]

Does Hellfire Ray really send to Hell? Because that would be doubly cruel to any demon she kills with it.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

2 minutes ago, majestic said:

Does Hellfire Ray really send to Hell? Because that would be doubly cruel to any demon she kills with it.

Yes.

https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/h/hellfire-ray/

"Any creature killed by this spell must attempt a Will saving throw; failure means the creature’s soul is damned to Hell as a burst of brimstone appears around its corpse. A nonevil spellcaster attempting to bring the creature back from the dead must attempt a caster level check (DC = 10 + the slain creature’s level) to succeed; failure means the spellcaster cannot try again for 1 day. Evil spellcasters can raise the slain character normally, without requiring a check. A raised character’s soul is no longer automatically consigned to Hell."

Maybe Ember's pateon is an Archdevil?

[majestic]

32 minutes ago, KP From Another World said:

Maybe Ember's pateon is an Archdevil?

Ember quest spoilers:

Spoiler

It does explain how she manages to convince so many demons to join her in holding hands and sing Kumbaya, because if the alternative is being sent to Avernus, uhm...

Does that even work that way? It does for mortal souls, but what about demons? Do they get destroyed instead?

[InsaneCommander]

1 hour ago, Agiel said:

In honour of the release of the Enhanced Edition I got off my lazy bum to come up with this:

As many players noted how incongruous it was that casting a spell that consigns the souls of its victims to flames of eternal woe doesn't shift alignment one iota.

I initially wanted to draw Daeran and Sosiel in place of Arushalae and Seelah, but then remembered that they too could cast Hellfire Ray.

"You are a good person. I like you."

Thank you Ember. I'll remain on your good side.

 

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

1 hour ago, majestic said:

Ember quest spoilers:

  Reveal hidden contents

It does explain how she manages to convince so many demons to join her in holding hands and sing Kumbaya, because if the alternative is being sent to Avernus, uhm...

Does that even work that way? It does for mortal souls, but what about demons? Do they get destroyed instead?

Honestly I don't know. Outsiders in Pathfinder don't die like mortals, iirc they go back to their home planes when "killed" and reform, their true deaths involve disolving into the plane. Maybe the demons Ember blasts go to Hell instead of the Abyss, which probably isn't too pleasant for them. Or maybe their evil essence gets ripped out of them and absorbed by hell while the rest writhes in agony.

[uuuhhii]

that may not be how outsider work in pathfinder.isn't even sure how and if reincarnation work in pathfinder after reading a lot of lore.but a lot of high level creature have some kind of resurrect or rejuvenation rule

[Gromnir]

pnp hellfire rays is far less op, as long as you got a sane gm who ain't gonna engage in purposeful obtuse and pretend as if hellfire rays do damage other than hellfire. hellfire does 50% o' its damage via mundane fire and 50% by means o' unholy energy. the original description for hellfire in the book of the damned splat book observes a protection from evil spell negates all the unholy damage. furthermore, unholy damage does zippo to evil beings.

so, hellfire rays, which curious enough do not have the fire descriptor and thus do not benefit from any fire enhancing spells/powhaz/abilities, only do half damage if you had forethought to cast protection from evil, a level 1 cleric spell... again, assuming hellfire rays use hellfire.

please note flame strike, and a few other spells, damage enemies via 1/2 elemental and 1/2 divine. unlike unholy, divine is one o' those rare untyped damages. is no good reason to assume hellfire rays does 1/2 damage via divine. converse, ordinary critical and construction has us reading hellfire and hellfire ray as doing same damages particular in the absence o' clear evidence to the contrary. 

brief aside, 'cause am not particular interested and am thinking is no need for a right answer, but virtual all pathfinder spells which target souls fail against constructs, undead, elementals and outsiders. however, true resurrection is an exception. is a singular exception and even trap the soul, a level eight spell, fails when targeting outsiders. hellfire rays is a level six spell, so...

...

am such a nerd to remember this nonsense; am so embarrassed. nevertheless, while is not how wotr hellfire rays is implemented, according to the diabolist prestige class entry, when a diabloist converts elemental spells to hellfire, the rays gain the evil and lawful descriptor. would at least explain why you may target demons with hellfires and they do not shrug off the unholy portion o' the damage.

*groan*

can't believe we once again engaged full nerd mode.

HA! Good Fun!

ps with a level o' sorc, and perhaps one-to-three of loremaster, ember may be useful as something other than a spammer o' hellfire rays. "enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat."  that said, ember is extreme useful as a blaster and is not difficult to build her as such. after all, wotr is a game.

obviously wotr ain't pro football, but is still a game. 

[InsaneCommander]

Is "Logistics" supposed to lag behind the other Kingdom Stats? It is stuck on level III, while the others are level V.

[Gromnir]

check to see if you got a logistics decree which has been overlooked, otherwise, build stuff and upgrade outposts. dunno. as long as you add structures and have completed crinukh's letters as well as similar crusade projects, gaining logistics should not be stalled.

HA! Good Fun!

ps am recalling you were delaying ivory sanctum, but am thinking you got a post sanctum decree which you need to advance logistics.

 

 

Edited October 6, 2022 by Gromnir

[Gorth]

I was right, I ended up going to hell

Ok, not quite. I'm sure The Midnight Isles is somewhere where good guys don't go in the afterlife. It was a bit tricky at first, but I managed to navigate around. Picked up half a dozen companion quests, found the respec guy (I'll try changing my mythic skills into Perception instead of Athletics. Found the arena too and I'm not known as the Mephit Slayer

Found a bit of Cold Iron and some magic hides/skin of magic creatures too. I seem to remember the storyteller needing that to complete another artifact for me. Buying a lot of slaves, a few nice (and very expensive) pieces of gear from one of the vendors. Someone had those special crystals, but the name was in quotes, so I suspect it was ironically meant and he was trying to rip me off with forgeries (and didn't pay 50k gold for it). After getting ripped off badly by the inn keeper, I realized this was not a good place to sleep. Too much corruption (I'm in hell, duh!) and too much ambush at night. Took me a while to realize the Hand of Iomedae had set up a nice, safe camp for me in the Nexus.

Edit: Found a few tokens, that allows me to use the portal for at least a bit of quick travel.

[Gromnir]

1 hour ago, Gorth said:

Took me a while to realize the Hand of Iomedae had set up a nice, safe camp for me in the Nexus.

the hand does more than set up a nice camp. he will act as a literal unseen guardian angel if you face near-death, but more important, when he heals you he also restores all per day uses o' spells and abilities. we kinda played with the mechanic and never saw a limit to the number o' times he would free heal/restore you.

is potential for exploitation as time does not pass when the hand heals. 

HA! Good Fun!

ps (edit) am mentioning 'cause the result o' the hand's heal is unintuitive. is quite possible you don't realize how the mechanic functions until you spend considerable time in the abyss and then finally ask the hand to heal you instead o' camping. 

Edited October 7, 2022 by Gromnir

[InsaneCommander]

4 hours ago, Gromnir said:

check to see if you got a logistics decree which has been overlooked, otherwise, build stuff and upgrade outposts. dunno. as long as you add structures and have completed crinukh's letters as well as similar crusade projects, gaining logistics should not be stalled.

HA! Good Fun!

ps am recalling you were delaying ivory sanctum, but am thinking you got a post sanctum decree which you need to advance logistics.

I didn’t pay much attention to the buildings and had built only one Supply Center, in Drezen. So I never had much Material Points and haven’t built enough Buildings that give Logistics points…

I returned to Wintersun, where I talked with the mad half-elf and fought against the Siabrae. I triggered the battle with Seelah and kept the rest of the party away because of the cloud spell that causes ability damage. Ember had to roll a 19 or 20 to Dispel it, but Seelah and the summons managed to survive until they got help. Also fought against the crazy Specter who I fooled on my previous visit, when I took the whip from the prompted window when leaving the area, avoiding him on my way out.

There isn’t much left on the map, apparently, so I headed to the Ivory Sanctum. Decided not to accept the demon’s deal simply because that is something I’ll definitely do in my next playthrough.