Ukraine Conflict - "Politics is war without bloodshed while war is politics with bloodshed"

[Darkpriest]

Btw, now with changes in Itally, Hungary is more openly calling for end of sanctions on Russia by the end of the year. I expect in 2-4weeks time Italy will be asking for end of sanctions as well. 

Other countries' resolve might get tested as well... 

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-09-24/europe-s-first-cold-snap-is-early-test-for-continent-in-crisis

[Lexx]

1 hour ago, xzar_monty said:

The second one is yet another example of the brutality of the Russian army towards its members: a drone drops an explosive on four walking soldiers. It ends very badly for at least one of them, but my point is related to the fact that none of them appear to give a toss about any of the others, it's every man for himself. This goes against everything I have ever learned and seen about every other army in the world. And this has been demonstrated in video after video, when it comes to the Russian army, and that's why it appears more like an armed mob than a proper army. Frankly, I find it absolutely astonishing: how is it possible that there is apparently no camaraderie and no regard for the life of your fellow soldiers?

And on the other side there is a video of an ukrainian soldier who tries to save his wounded buddy and then both get killed. He likely would have survived if he just ran away like the russians do, but he didn't.

Edited September 26, 2022 by Lexx

[BruceVC]

45 minutes ago, Gorth said:

I've seen the second video (and no, it really doesn't belong on these forums, so thank you for not posting it ). It all leaves you with that feeling, that the bulk of the Russian army is made up of uneducated thugs led by slightly educated but rotten to the core, corrupt crooks.

Hence why you get all the seemingly unnecessary cruelty and brutality. Those young men didn't want to be in a war but got issued a gun and shipped off to a war zone. No leadership or direction (militarily or ethically), so they take it out on anything. The Ukrainian army, the Ukrainian people and each other too. It's a two edged sword, because if they had been a well led and well motivated force, Ukraine would not have suffered a lot of the civilian casualties, but they would also long since have been part of the Russian Federation again (even with Russian obsolete, meme worthy hardware).

Im misunderstanding some of this post, Ukraine had an election in 2019 and Zelensky won by 72% with a clear mandate to not be part of the Russian federation or Putins block of countries?

 

[Mamoulian War]

33 minutes ago, Darkpriest said:

Btw, now with changes in Itally, Hungary is more openly calling for end of sanctions on Russia by the end of the year. I expect in 2-4weeks time Italy will be asking for end of sanctions as well. 

Other countries' resolve might get tested as well... 

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-09-24/europe-s-first-cold-snap-is-early-test-for-continent-in-crisis

The thing with Italy is, that the most powerful party of the right wing coalition, led by the lady, which name I do not remember is, that she, despite being close to neonazi, was always vocal, that the Ukraine will get the same support from Italy as under Draghi. Of course Berlusconi and Salvini will try to force the change of her mind, but that’s what only time will tell. And Italy being Italy, we might see another elections in few months…

[Darkpriest]

Just now, Mamoulian War said:

The thing with Italy is, that the most powerful party of the right wing coalition, led by the lady, which name I do not remember is, that she, despite being close to neonazi, was always vocal, that the Ukraine will get the same support from Italy as under Draghi. Of course Berlusconi and Salvini will try to force the change of her mind, but that’s what only time will tell. And Italy being Italy, we might see another elections in few months…

One thing, she mentioned support 'recently' , but when you look at her 2014 comments, she was against sanctions then. I have some level of cynical view, that this view will soon  re-emerge. 

[Gorth]

23 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

Im misunderstanding some of this post

 

Yes

 

First paragraph is a response to Xzars post (and the nature of the videos) and the second paragraph is me musing over the irony of Ukraine still being a country for the same reason a lot of the atrocities take place.

[Mamoulian War]

9 minutes ago, Darkpriest said:

One thing, she mentioned support 'recently' , but when you look at her 2014 comments, she was against sanctions then. I have some level of cynical view, that this view will soon  re-emerge. 

We’ll see. The current war changed the minds of a lot of Pro-Russian politicians. Prime example would be Czech president Zeman, who had very strong rhetoric about some western actions in the past, and had a lot of praise for doing things the russian way. That all changed on February 24, when he strongly condemned the russian aggression and voiced support to Ukraine and heavy sanctions against Russia, and he did not change his mind until now.

Edited September 26, 2022 by Mamoulian War

[xzar_monty]

A friend of mine is a professor of linguistics but as it is specifically Slavic linguistics, he's fairly well aware of what's happening in Russia. He has just pointed out that unlike all other former colonial powers, Russia is still one and still going strong. Look at this:

Yakutia (1 million inhabitants) has been ordered to mobilise 15 000 more people, as has Dagestan (3 mil). People from the Komi republic (just under 1 mil) report that nearly all men from rural villages have been ordered to mobilise, only children and the elderly are exempt.

Conversely, Nizni Novgorod (4 million) and Sverdlovski (4.3 mil) need to mobilise less than 10 000 more people -- but these are Russian areas, and not even poor Russian areas.

Think of "Siberia" as "Africa", a relatively sparsely populated area from which people other than Russians are mobilised in numbers that are out of proportion to how Russians themselves are mobilised. It is the job of the ethnic minorities to die for the Slavs.

Edited September 26, 2022 by xzar_monty

[BruceVC]

9 minutes ago, Gorth said:

Yes

 

First paragraph is a response to Xzars post (and the nature of the videos) and the second paragraph is me musing over the irony of Ukraine still being a country for the same reason a lot of the atrocities take place.

I still dont understand, what do you mean by " the same reason a lot the atrocities take place " ?

[Mamoulian War]

@xzar_monty
 

Same in Crimea Tatars and cities with Armenian minorities. Tatars are about 80% of all conscripted men fromCrimea. The Armenians are even more blantantly misused. In a city, which name I do not remember again, the are approximately 3% of the local demographics. But the conscripted men from this city are 90% Armenians.

Edited September 26, 2022 by Mamoulian War

[xzar_monty]

26 minutes ago, Darkpriest said:

You are more than welcome to be polite and wrong. I like to describe things as they are, without sugar coating. 

I am not going to comment on the matter after this, because it's not worth it, but it's good for you to know that you cannot call her a "harlot" unless you specifically mean that she gives sex in exchange for money (or is otherwise promiscuous in a very sexual sense). So you are the one in the wrong here unless you have some very private information that others don't have.

The word harlot does not have the more general and moral meanings that the word prostitute has. If you call someone a harlot, you refer to sex.

Edited September 26, 2022 by xzar_monty

[Gorth]

12 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

I still dont understand, what do you mean by " the same reason a lot the atrocities take place " ?

The reason being an army made up of thugs, simpletons and general "rabble" armed with automatic weapons and cannons and led by corrupt, incompetent officers. The same mix that is is the reason for the callous brutality is also the same mix that prevented Russia from winning the war outright in the first 14 days of the war (which any even medium competent army would have done blindfolded and with their shoelaces used to tied their shoes together). Main difference in February was a) better quality material humans in the Ukrainian army and a lot of material support from the west. The Ukrainian army was not significantly better at the fighting part during the first days of the war. Motivation (defending your home vs. being conscripted and shipped off to a war at gunpoint) as well as a lot of new high tech toys that doesn't kill a crew even with a glancing hit does wonder for morale. Just about any other army than the Russian (with a similar size) would have marched up against the Polish border within a fortnight and asked the Europeans if they want fries with their LPG.

[Gorth]

@Darkpriest

 

Quoting the forum guidelines: Discrimination: Obsidian has a zero-tolerance policy with regard to racial, ethnic, gender, religious, disablement, and/or sexually discriminating remarks.

 

Calling somebody a harlot for being female (regardless of how infuriating that person is) is crossing the line and I would recommend reconsidering the choice of words.

 

Edit: Thread pruned. Let me know if I missed any pots on the subject?

[xzar_monty]

@Gorth: Btw, when it comes to the atrocities, I'm almost certain that it is also hormonal, purely animalistic biology. We can never test this, though, but I am honestly quite convinced that the combination of extreme fear and extreme adrenaline rushes wreaks havoc on the human bodymind. This leads to terrible things -- all armies are terrible, but some armies are more terrible than others, so discipline does matter, too, no question. And perhaps an organism facing imminent death for extended periods of time becomes overwhelmed with an urge to procreate, hence all the raping? Something like that.

Conditions of war cannot really be experienced anywhere else. As has been noted, there is no such thing as getting used to combat. Physical and mental well-being starts to deteriorate fairly quickly, and after about 4 months, a person is toast, in terms of effectiveness. I recall that fighter pilots are really quite done after coming home from 90 minutes in the air, if they properly engage (but I may remember this somewhat wrong) and need serious rest.

Now, this hormonal / evolutionary / biological perspective is an explanation, and a partial one at that. Please don't anyone regard it as a justification. There is none.

Edited September 26, 2022 by xzar_monty

[BruceVC]

10 minutes ago, Gorth said:

The reason being an army made up of thugs, simpletons and general "rabble" armed with automatic weapons and cannons and led by corrupt, incompetent officers. The same mix that is is the reason for the callous brutality is also the same mix that prevented Russia from winning the war outright in the first 14 days of the war (which any even medium competent army would have done blindfolded and with their shoelaces used to tied their shoes together). Main difference in February was a) better quality material humans in the Ukrainian army and a lot of material support from the west. The Ukrainian army was not significantly better at the fighting part during the first days of the war. Motivation (defending your home vs. being conscripted and shipped off to a war at gunpoint) as well as a lot of new high tech toys that doesn't kill a crew even with a glancing hit does wonder for morale. Just about any other army than the Russian (with a similar size) would have marched up against the Polish border within a fortnight and asked the Europeans if they want fries with their LPG.

Yes, okay now I understand. I agree, defending your home and morale are huge factors in any conflict and yes the military aid  from the West also made a difference 

[Gorth]

@xzar_monty which is why modern armies have things like tour of duty, rules of engagement and seems to be generally better at the team building part too, so men at the front can mutually support each other (and then it all falls apart when they leave the army and their support network of people who share their experiences and know how they feel)

Edit: The Russian army issues one way tickets to the front. You only return if either victorious or in a body bag. No breaks. The only thing missing from the Soviet era are the NKVD Commissars.

[Elerond]

7 hours ago, Gorth said:

Edit: Last time I checked, the country of Tibet was still occupied wholesale by it's larger neighbour (after China invaded it in 1952) without a lot of the same, self-righteous countries doing much about it.

British empire and Russian empire gave Tibet to China in 1907

http://www.tibetjustice.org/materials/treaties/treaties12.html

After fighting over it and then Qing dynasty declared Chinese sovereignty over Tibet.

After fall of Qing dynasty in 1912, Tibet become de facto independent as civil war in China kept Chinese busy and not interested of what was happening in Tibet.  Tibet didn't established ties to rest of the world except in 1914 they gave small parts of Himalayan to British India (which Chinese government denounced illegal)

In 1932 National Revolutionary Army (non-communist troops of Chinese government that currently resides in Taiwan) destroyed Tibet's army, but then Japan invaded to China and quick truce was signed and Chinese troops left to fight against Japanese. 

In 1949 when communist party took over China with help of Stalin, Tibet expelled all Chinese connected to government. Mao Zedong send Chinese troops Tibet soon after he come in power. In 1950 Tibetian army surrendered to Chinese forces after mostly pacifistic resistance. In June 1950 British government declared that "His Majesty's Government have always been prepared to recognize Chinese suzerainty over Tibet, but only on the understanding that Tibet is regarded as autonomous."  In 1951 China and TIbet signed 17 point agreement that formalized China's sovereignty over Tibet. 

After that China has ruled over Tibet but situation is still quite volatile

[Gorth]

10 minutes ago, Elerond said:

British empire and Russian empire gave Tibet to China in 1907

http://www.tibetjustice.org/materials/treaties/treaties12.html

After fighting over it and then Qing dynasty declared Chinese sovereignty over Tibet.

After fall of Qing dynasty in 1912, Tibet become de facto independent as civil war in China kept Chinese busy and not interested of what was happening in Tibet.  Tibet didn't established ties to rest of the world except in 1914 they gave small parts of Himalayan to British India (which Chinese government denounced illegal)

In 1932 National Revolutionary Army (non-communist troops of Chinese government that currently resides in Taiwan) destroyed Tibet's army, but then Japan invaded to China and quick truce was signed and Chinese troops left to fight against Japanese. 

In 1949 when communist party took over China with help of Stalin, Tibet expelled all Chinese connected to government. Mao Zedong send Chinese troops Tibet soon after he come in power. In 1950 Tibetian army surrendered to Chinese forces after mostly pacifistic resistance. In June 1950 British government declared that "His Majesty's Government have always been prepared to recognize Chinese suzerainty over Tibet, but only on the understanding that Tibet is regarded as autonomous."  In 1951 China and TIbet signed 17 point agreement that formalized China's sovereignty over Tibet. 

After that China has ruled over Tibet but situation is still quite volatile

You can go a bit further back than that if you want... it has been a country since 127bc, was an empire since 627ad and a theocracy since Dalai Llama I came to power in 1391ad. Some fragmentation and provinces seceding (and re-incorporated) up until 1642. The Qing Empire invaded in 1722 to help defeat a third party invader in collaboration with the Tibetan army. Thing is just, the Qing troops stayed after the Khanate was defeated. And that is China's justification for claiming Tibet (that they had invaded and occupied it previously).

Hmm... this really belongs in the military or the politics thread, doesn't it?

[Darkpriest]

1 hour ago, Mamoulian War said:

We’ll see. The current war changed the minds of a lot of Pro-Russian politicians. Prime example would be Czech president Zeman, who had very strong rhetoric about some western actions in the past, and had a lot of praise ofr russian way. That all changed on February 24, when he strongly condemned the russian aggression and voiced support to Ukraine and heavy sanctions against Russia, and he did not change his mind until now.

Let me expand this PoV a bit. 

Right now ECB is trying to keep the spread between bonda of different countries of EUR zone tight by selling less toxic and buying more toxic bonds. 

 

Italy right now hs about 150% debt to GDP, meaning their bonda are the most toxic out there. 

 

The Right wing, populistic government will have to do something to deal with worsening economic situation. 

It has two doors:

1) Rely on EU and ECB, against both of which they were quite vocal about, and where some policies really do not allign well. They are most likely do the same thing as Truss atempted in UK. Spend your way out of the crisis. This will not work, will crash IT bonds and drag EUR with it, and once the IT bond yields will skyrocket, IT debt crisis will be bigger than Greece in times of infamous PIIGS. The issue is, Lagarde and Von der L will happily let the right wing gov to crash... Until another early election. 

 

2) Keep sticking to 'EU elites' and say that "sanctions need to end as IT suffers more than Russia on sanctions and migrants are still flooding Italy". This rheotric will be accepted by their suppprters and IT will join Orban in anti sanctions club

 

I believe the option 2 is more likely, but that's an old cynic in me... 

 

If you want to understand how badly Truss effed up, read this blog. I value this guys cool headed approach with a dose of UK humor. 

https://morningporridge.com/blog/blains-morning-porridge/the-uks-monumental-policy-mistake-how-bad-will-it-get/

Edited September 26, 2022 by Darkpriest

[Darkpriest]

46 minutes ago, Gorth said:

@Darkpriest

 

Quoting the forum guidelines: Discrimination: Obsidian has a zero-tolerance policy with regard to racial, ethnic, gender, religious, disablement, and/or sexually discriminating remarks.

 

Calling somebody a harlot for being female (regardless of how infuriating that person is) is crossing the line and I would recommend reconsidering the choice of words.

 

Edit: Thread pruned. Let me know if I missed any pots on the subject?

Sure, although i did not call her for being a specific gender. That's  gross misinterprretation of the adjective i've used and the situation. It was aimed at the person and qualities of a character. If she was a male I would probably used a gender specific BD-DH.

[xzar_monty]

21 minutes ago, Darkpriest said:

If you want to understand how badly Truss effed up, read this blog. I value this guys cool headed approach with a dose of UK humor. 

https://morningporridge.com/blog/blains-morning-porridge/the-uks-monumental-policy-mistake-how-bad-will-it-get/

Someone who emphasizes words by using the unholy trinity of all caps, italics and bold is neither cool-headed nor, almost certainly, worth reading. Honestly, I couldn't get past that.

[Lexx]

1 hour ago, Gorth said:

The only thing missing from the Soviet era are the NKVD Commissars.

They exist in the form of the Kadyrovs now.

[Mamoulian War]

It will probably not get embedded.

People are mocking the referenda. Netherlands have started referendum about annexation of Russia with English subtitles

https://www.mojevideo.sk/e/4yvq

Slovak video provider ^

 

[Malcador]

6 hours ago, Gorth said:

I'm *not* saying Putin is right (that wasn't the question). I'm saying "The West" is a bunch of hypocrites for not treating aggressors by the same measuring

stick (and apply the same consequences).

 

Edit: Added the 'not' because I hit submit before proof reading

Surprised none of the usual people are bleating whataboutism at you

Saw that drone video, if it's the same one anyway, 36 seconds long is a good springboard for sure. 1 KIA it seems, but 2 others also get wounded. 

Ah well, is why war porn isn't really worth watching, no matter what excuse for it one drums up.

Edited September 26, 2022 by Malcador

[Lexx]

26 minutes ago, Malcador said:

Surprised none of the usual people are bleating whataboutism at you

Well, he is right. But he is not using it to deflect blame from russia, which is what Z did.