The All Things Political Topic - We hang the petty thieves and appoint the great ones to public office

[alanschu]

1 minute ago, Chilloutman said:

I don't follow am afraid my poor handle of English is limiting me here or its my European experience with schooling system. How is making demanded schools free and only supporting top students in 'non-profitable' by grants creating abuse of 'less privileged' students? Are we still talking about merit here? Lessening the 'pool of perspective students' for' non-profitable' degrees is exactly why I am arguing for this

Fair enough. Let me rephrase what it seemed you were proposing to make sure I understand it.

You feel that the state should only fund programs that are specifically profitable, and that other degrees should still be available but otherwise receive no subsidy and be paid for by the students themselves. However, you feel that any funding/grants for research should be available for top students in any field?

I think the difference might be that when I saw "grants" I did not think about things like academic scholarships to help undergraduates pay for school when I was talking about funding, but rather that governments often provide a lot of research funding via grants for academic research. (I may have bled in some context from my microbiologist friend when I read your post, who was no longer a student but needed to petition for research grant money).

[Chilloutman]

oh i think we were talking only about scholarships the whole time I mentioned 'grants' by bad

[Gromnir]

scholarships should be awarded through the kurgan method

kidding... mostly.

HA! Good Fun!

[Hurlshort]

I imagine there has to be some wiggle room between "college is free" and "College graduates will leave school with a mountain of debt".

[alanschu]

1 hour ago, Chilloutman said:

oh i think we were talking only about scholarships the whole time I mentioned 'grants' by bad

I definitely misunderstood!

If you're referring to funding the education of students, then ideally you will mitigate some merit based concerns. I don't think it is gone entirely, as students without financial means may still avoid even attempting a field if there are concerns about not being able to fall back on a particular subject matter if you don't qualify for education.

Of course I'm just making a supposition

Maybe some field can do a study on the implications!?

  

40 minutes ago, Hurlshort said:

I imagine there has to be some wiggle room between "college is free" and "College graduates will leave school with a mountain of debt".

As someone that definitely pissed away his first year of schooling (paid for largely by parents and scholarship), I do think there is some merit to having some degree of financial investment to going to school just to add a bit more personal stake for accountability/commitment reasons.

It's just trickier as that level of investment probably would need to be based on financial ability which complicates (often making it more expensive). But yes I concede this.

Edited August 26, 2022 by alanschu

[ShadySands]

When I was in the military it worked like this, if you passed the class with a C or D (I forget which) or better they'd pay for it and if didn't make the grade or you failed then you'd be footing the bill. This was tuition assistance though and not a scholarship and you were limited on how much you could have them spend on you in a single year but it was their way of ensuring that we had skin in the game

[alanschu]

I am realizing I still have not actually seen any of the Highlander movies....

 

[Zoraptor]

You can always go for the New Zealand model of education.

Have high fees, have low wages- especially for anything seen as 'vocational' where obviously people want to do their jobs for the benefit of society, so will, equally obviously, accept permanently awful wages and conditions!

Wonder why everyone with a useful degree leaves the country and many never come back and thus never pay back their loans, and every, say, nurse is either on the verge of quitting or a south asian import (and after a few years the imports quit too due to the stress). Plenty of money for staff, but heaps of vacancies because the wages are too low. Then be baffled by the 'skills shortage' and why everyone has gone to Australia, the UK, US, Dubai for twice the money and far better conditions- yes brits, even in the NHS. All from the geniuses who didn't think pumping $50bn into rich people's pockets would result in either a housing bubble or inflation (couldn't give it to poor people of course, that would be inflationary...)

Edited August 26, 2022 by Zoraptor

[Malcador]

1 hour ago, alanschu said:

I am realizing I still have not actually seen any of the Highlander movies....

There is only one.

[alanschu]

1 hour ago, Malcador said:

There is only one.

I have it under reasonable assurances that that is all there can ever be too!

[Chilloutman]

2 hours ago, Zoraptor said:

You can always go for the New Zealand model of education.

Have high fees, have low wages- especially for anything seen as 'vocational' where obviously people want to do their jobs for the benefit of society, so will, equally obviously, accept permanently awful wages and conditions!

Wonder why everyone with a useful degree leaves the country and many never come back and thus never pay back their loans, and every, say, nurse is either on the verge of quitting or a south asian import (and after a few years the imports quit too due to the stress). Plenty of money for staff, but heaps of vacancies because the wages are too low. Then be baffled by the 'skills shortage' and why everyone has gone to Australia, the UK, US, Dubai for twice the money and far better conditions- yes brits, even in the NHS. All from the geniuses who didn't think pumping $50bn into rich people's pockets would result in either a housing bubble or inflation (couldn't give it to poor people of course, that would be inflationary...)

 

Well I have few friends from CZ who worked in NZ and it was not gloom and doom on wages. But they always complained that you guys can't build decent house if your life depended on it xD

 

also look at what you are comparing it to (UK,dubai) are like the highest paid wages in all the world...

[ShadySands]

6 hours ago, ShadySands said:

DOJ reveals redacted affidavit justifying Trump Mar-a-Lago raid

 

I've given this a little more thought and I don't see how Trump comes out of this unscathed. I mean legally, I think politically nothing matters. Reason being is because even though the president can legally declassify things, IIRC (it's been a long time since I've had to do security training) you can only classify/declassify information not documents. So either all of that information is now declassified everywhere or it's not declassified at all.

[Gromnir]

8 minutes ago, ShadySands said:

I've given this a little more thought and I don't see how Trump comes out of this unscathed. I mean legally, I think politically nothing matters. Reason being is because even though the president can legally declassify things, IIRC (it's been a long time since I've had to do security training) you can only classify/declassify information not documents. So either all of that information is now declassified everywhere or it's not declassified at all.

the classified/declassified part is a bit of a red herring. those documents the national achieves has been attempting to retrieve since 2021 aren't trump's property regardless if they are classified or not. the security risk presented by having such documents stored at a hotel exists whether they are technically classified or not. the most obvious legal problem for trump, and this only came to light recently, is that the national archives attempted to retrieve those documents which do not belong to trump and trump's people assured the feds that all relevant documents had already been returned. 

the criminal liability hurdle is that trump needs to have some provable intent to 1) hurt the US or 2) share the intelligence with foreign powers if you are trying to criminalize the x-President under the espionage act for possession o' intelligence documents. having the documents at mar-a-lago, while not good, is unlikely gonna be what leads to a criminal charge, 'cause seems improbable one will be able to prove trump took and retained US intelligence resources 'cause he were trying to burn the US. show trump is a petty narcissist and he didn't wanna give up his toys? sure. prove he were intending to screw the US or had plans to sell or share secrets with foreign powers is not same. the thing is, willful concealing or destruction o' such intelligence documents may also be criminalized. after the warrant were executed, has become increasing apparent trump and his people were very much aware they had documents which were rightful the property o' the US and trump were not returning those documents voluntarily.

trump brought up declassification as an excuse/defense and most persons in the media, and even a few lawyers, made the mistake o' responding as if the classification status could be meaningful. don't get distracted. classification status should not be meaningful. knowledge of trump and those in his orbit that there were documents which properly belongs to the US and trump and his people did willful retain such documents in spite o' multiple attempts by the national archives to retrieve is gonna be where trump is most vulnerable... if the doj wants to take it so far.

perhaps the main point o' the search warrant were to finally retrieve the remaining documents, which in our mind is already a win, but trump turned the situation into a political p00p storm. is ironic but perhaps the political furor trump ignited might lead to charges which previous coulda' been considered a secondary concern for doj. no matter what, the intelligence needed to be required, particular (assuming nyt and washington post reporting is accurate) once mar-a-lago security footage showed multiple persons accessing the s'posed secure documents. is possible doj woulda' been happy to let the issue go quiet as long as they felt confident no more state secrets were in trump's tiny hands. am not sure if the 8/26 situation allows for a quiet resolution.

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

[ShadySands]

Isn't taking and keeping classified information a crime on its own?

[Gorth]

10 hours ago, alanschu said:

That's not unreasonable. I'm a lefty but recognizing "is this a good use for government funding" is always a valid question. My biggest concern is that if you make it self funded, it will become privileged. And once that happens, I wouldn't be surprised that University degrees even in "useless" sciences become increasingly valuable (it will empower employers - often richer in our society - to more effectively gatekeep).

Coming from a "classless" society, I noticed how stark the differences were for Australian youths. Universities are expensive and it has two effects. It creates very much a tiered society, where education and wealth is a feudal thing. It stays in the families that can afford it. The rest... can go picking grapes (and compete with the backpackers for the cheap labour jobs) or sleep in the streets. I.e. a self reinforcing inequality in society. The conservatives down here are all for that biblical quote "to him who has will be given more" (and the context be damned). Up there with tax breaks for the top 5% in poor governance

 

Personally, I firmly believe an educated (at least the bulk of the) population is a national asset and therefore a task for the government to ensure happens. Not the task of wealthy parents.

Ironically, my free University degree (minor in electronics and major on computer science) is of effectively no use today. It wasn't even what got me my first job (I worked as a cleaner, as a untrained carer in a hospice and a few other jobs, including as a removal guy, before landing my first developer job). It was networking, a friend who knew somebody who needed someone badly, like yesterday. With that on my CV it was a small step to New Zealand and the rest is history. 25 years as developer, almost 20 of those overseas. My biggest challenge is to trim my CV and leave out most stuff that is more than 10 years old to keep it shorter than three A4 pages. Nobody cares about a university degree from the 90's when presented with my CV (a few token reference checks to satisfy due diligence, did I really work for the company that I claimed working for in the position I claimed to have worked in). Doesn't change my perception, that an educated population is a requirement for well functioning (and affluent) society as a whole.

Edit: Hospices didn't officially exist in Denmark back then, but they had de-factor places where they created as comfortable environments as possible for terminally ill people, both old and young.

[Gromnir]

1 hour ago, ShadySands said:

Isn't taking and keeping classified information a crime on its own?

yes, but the Constitutional issue is not settled.  doesn't make much sense for Congress to be able to limit an executive powhar unless is a power Congress granted to the executive branch. SCOTUS could very well decide, and with more than a little justification, that the President may indeed wave a magic wand and declassify documents at any time and on a whim. trump, over and over and over again showed how in spite o' behaviours being unthinkable and even arguable illegal, as the head o' the executive branch, including the department o' justice, the only meaningful limit on the President is impeachment. trump pulls out a ****tail napkin dated january 19, 2020 or has some kroney back up the silliness that trump declassified anything and everything which were being packed and sent to mar-a-lago might sound ridiculous, but is not a ludicrous legal argument to be making.

the thing is, there is no need for the doj to counter the blanket classification defense. the identified statutes in the search warrant do not mention classified documents. am thinking that were not an oversight on the part o' merrick garland.  make 18 U.S. Code § 1924 the basis for warrant and assuming probable cause as a necessary prerequisite for the search would be undermined if the Court decided the President had indeed declassified everything. is not clear regardless o' how stoopid it feels and in spite o' how many lawyers has said a President can't declassify on a whim... 'cause the opposite might very well be the case. 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited August 27, 2022 by Gromnir

[alanschu]

1 hour ago, Gorth said:

Coming from a "classless" society, I noticed how stark the differences were for Australian youths. Universities are expensive and it has two effects. It creates very much a tiered society, where education and wealth is a feudal thing. It stays in the families that can afford it. The rest... can go picking grapes (and compete with the backpackers for the cheap labour jobs) or sleep in the streets. I.e. a self reinforcing inequality in society.

That was one of the things that got me even as a young conservative. Probably some degree of projection (by the time high school came around, we were definitely a lower income household) but it seemed silly that a society that ostensibly is about merit and equality of opportunity that we so clearly ensured that opportunities were not equal. And I'm not even referring to higher end private schooling which I could hand wave away and rationalize to a degree, but rather that there were clear minimum standards for education that should be available for everyone since no matter how "all for responsibility" one could be... it was easier to accept that children were not responsible for financial woes within their household but ultimately pay the price in many ways.

1 hour ago, Gorth said:

It was networking, a friend who knew somebody who needed someone badly, like yesterday. With that on my CV it was a small step to New Zealand and the rest is history. 25 years as developer, almost 20 of those overseas. My biggest challenge is to trim my CV and leave out most stuff that is more than 10 years old to keep it shorter than three A4 pages. Nobody cares about a university degree from the 90's when presented with my CV

Agreed that education only plays some level of a role and has an effective expiry date. Even then, I think people can get (and apply) a lot more from the "useless" degrees than many of the critics of said degrees feel. A lot of knowledge can be applied in a different way, and IMO many, many of the skills gained during an academic career are also transferable.

[Zoraptor]

6 hours ago, Chilloutman said:

Well I have few friends from CZ who worked in NZ and it was not gloom and doom on wages. But they always complained that you guys can't build decent house if your life depended on it xD

In absolute terms the wages are... OK here, though the cost of living is ludicrously high relative to them thanks to some really stupid decisions (eg see below). The trouble is twofold; firstly stress, conditions, overtime and understaffing make the wages seem really poor and just not worth it for professions like nursing, but also for teaching the the like. Secondly, we have very good training programs but the wages and conditions are better in every other anglo country. So the choice is more stress for less money in NZ, or go elsewhere. And if you've got a student loan 10% of your wage is garnered by the government too which it won't be overseas, and along with kiwisaver contributions nurses are on a ~50% tax rate.

The houses here are hilarious, the perfect mix of expensive to build and utter crap when built. Monopoly plaster board supplier, export raw logs and import processed timber for building, cowboy operators who declare bankruptcy every 5 minutes when their homes start leaking. And built on the best agricultural land to add an extra layer of stupid, with utter bafflement when vegetables get expensive... maybe it's because you've allowed crappy McMansions to be built on all the fertile land?

Edited August 27, 2022 by Zoraptor

[BruceVC]

The best way for parents to understand what is the most worthwhile degree or certification for there kids to study is just to look at the local job market online and see what jobs and skills companies are looking for. It will differ from country to country but there will be common skills that are in demand and its unlikely this will be degrees like  some of the  creative arts, political science, history or philosophy 

Artisan skills like carpentry, electricians, plumbers  and mechanics are always useful and in demand and then STEM subjects, finance, law, medicine etc. 

We shouldnt be debating something as important as this when you can do research in your local job market to understand the reality of a good job and a job that offers financial growth

Edited August 27, 2022 by BruceVC

[Gorth]

1 hour ago, BruceVC said:

The best way for parents to understand what is the most worthwhile degree or certification for there kids to study is just to look at the local job market online and see what jobs and skills companies are looking for. It will differ from country to country but there will be common skills that are in demand and its unlikely this will be degrees like  some of the  creative arts, political science, history or philosophy 

Artisan skills like carpentry, electricians, plumbers  and mechanics are always useful and in demand and then STEM subjects, finance, law, medicine etc. 

We shouldnt be debating something as important as this when you can do research in your local job market to understand the reality of a good job and a job that offers financial growth

You know "Democracy" was a result of political science and philosophy, not carpentry, right? (not dissing carpenters, Jesus might get angry with me). Good thing not everybody listens to your advice

 

Edit: Otherwise we would just all end up in some kind of Ayn Rand'sque hell

[Chilloutman]

10 minutes ago, Gorth said:

You know "Democracy" was a result of political science and philosophy, not carpentry, right? (not dissing carpenters, Jesus might get angry with me). Good thing not everybody listens to your advice

 

Edit: Otherwise we would just all end up in some kind of Ayn Rand'sque hell

oh the irony, she also studied social sciences so by your logic, you will get exactly what you hate

[BruceVC]

1 hour ago, Gorth said:

You know "Democracy" was a result of political science and philosophy, not carpentry, right? (not dissing carpenters, Jesus might get angry with me). Good thing not everybody listens to your advice

 

Edit: Otherwise we would just all end up in some kind of Ayn Rand'sque hell

Gorthfuscious !! Stop  using  extreme examples and comparisons 

But you need those other degrees and they do have there benefits but you dont  want a preponderance of young people studying things like political science as opposed to engineering or finance 

Look at what students in the Asian countries study to see what I mean, thats why countries like SK, China and Japan are so globally competitive 

 

 

[Gorth]

5 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

Look at what students in the Asian countries study to see what I mean, thats why countries like SK, China and Japan are so globally competitive

Does it make the people there happier? Better mental health? Low suicide rates? No bullying in the schools? Political and individual freedom? Job satisfaction? Decent living conditions for normal people?

 

[BruceVC]

2 minutes ago, Gorth said:

Does it make the people there happier? Better mental health? Low suicide rates? No bullying in the schools? Political and individual freedom? Job satisfaction? Decent living conditions for normal people?

 

Thats a good point, I dont know. I will do some research and get back to you because quality of life and happiness  is important 

[Gorth]

12 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

Thats a good point, I dont know. I will do some research and get back to you because quality of life and happiness  is important 

The latter being my point really