Ukraine Conflict - "A state of war only serves as an excuse for domestic tyranny"

[Mamoulian War]

Speaking little bit about humanitarian laws, here is an example of Russian take on it, By General Major Vasilyev from their Outpost in Zaporozhia Nuclear Power Plant.:
"This will either be Russian land, or scorched earth," he said. He also told his soldiers that no matter how difficult orders they could receive, they had to execute them "with honour," calling them "liberators."

And another report about how the AI was doing it research in Ukraine's occupied territories and filtration camps:
 

 

[Malcador]

12 minutes ago, Mamoulian War said:

Speaking little bit about humanitarian laws, here is an example of Russian take on it, By General Major Vasilyev from their Outpost in Zaporozhia Nuclear Power Plant.:
"This will either be Russian land, or scorched earth," he said. He also told his soldiers that no matter how difficult orders they could receive, they had to execute them "with honour," calling them "liberators."

And another report about how the AI was doing it research in Ukraine's occupied territories and filtration camps:
 

 

By "energy units" what (no pun intended) do they mean, the reactors themselves ?  

Edited August 8, 2022 by Malcador

[Lexx]

Maybe they mean the power transformers? Wouldn't be surprised if those people don't know what they are talking about.

Edited August 8, 2022 by Lexx

[Mamoulian War]

1 hour ago, Malcador said:

By "energy units" what (no pun intended) do they mean, the reactors themselves ?  

 

10 minutes ago, Lexx said:

Maybe they mean the power transformers? Wouldn't be surprised if those people don't know what they are talking about.

I think, that was mistranslation in that tweet. The article in Ukrainian Pravda is talking about mined reactors.

https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2022/08/8/7362321/

[Mamoulian War]

Yup, it was definitelly mistranslation. The article in Ukrainian Language is talking about “енергоблоків”, wich means indeed when translated literally into english “Energy Blocks”. The same article written in English is talking about “reactors”.

Edited August 8, 2022 by Mamoulian War

[BruceVC]

23 hours ago, Gorth said:

A young lady whose Youtube channel I've watched occasionally for a few years. Usually an interesting insight into life in the Far East (living on the border with China, like real "rural" Russia). Giving an insight into life in post-sanction Russia...

 

Thats  a good video and honest, the girls are cute. I love the Russian English accent

They made  me several me laugh several times with the " American conspiracy theory " and " owners going to end up in the Gulag " and " imagine having to cross out the name McDonalds on the sauce " 

Sad how many shops are empty, thats sanctions for you.

In summary it doesnt look like much has changed with the new  "Russian bootleg McDonalds " ...its still junk food that is eatable but its average like normal 

But good video about how normal Russians feel about the reality in Russia since Putins War started 

[BruceVC]

14 hours ago, Zoraptor said:

Very bad form editing a post someone has already replied to. If you're adding new information it should be in a new post.

Reporters are not primary sources unless they're also eyewitnesses. The hint is in the name: Reporters. You go to primary sources if you can, that's just... basics- that's like eschewing eyewitnesses to get the good oil from wikipedia. Still, typical of reporters to pack a sad when someone thinks they aren't important.

Er lol. Why do these objections never surface when they say something the west likes? Let's be frank too, if they gave lots of detail the objection would be "anecdotal" "too long winded" "too much detail" and nitpicking everything.

Let's be honest here, if it was "did Russian forces do anything to mitigate risks" in their report it would all about how how AI was trying to minimise things. You're still wrong though anyway, as it specifically says they were distributed among civilians, the correct way to mitigate risks is to... not be among them. And yeah, for the obvious objection, they do specifically say away from the front lines, as using civilian infrastructure and being among civilians at the front line is (generally) not a war crime.

They cannot give too much detail anyway, as Ukrainian citizens are subject to the military censor and it's illegal to either 'slander' or to give information on the Ukrainian military. Anything that identifies who they talked too has to be restricted. Which is also, of course, why Ukrainian AI staff were not used for this (but are used for Russian war crimes)

Depends what they said. I also haven't praised it for accuracy and excellence, I just pointed out that your criticisms were laughable. Similar to when you were claiming that the EU never made their association agreement us or them and it wasn't a step towards EU accession- I made no value judgement on the approach itself

Cool, so I guess now in every report on Russian war crimes you'll insist on a balancing paragraph about the Ukrainians using civilian infrastructure for military purposes, shooting PoWs etc? No? Because if you don't, you're a hypocrite.

If you're going to complain about retconning of articles you'll be doing nothing else, all day.

It's funny when AI did ask Ukraine for comment, and got nothing.

Wow what a surprise, Zora defending AI biased and inaccurate assessment of who is really  responsible for the killings of civilians and targeting of civilian buildings. Do you know the Russians arent going to invade Ukraine, its just a training exercise 

Victim blaming is never nice to see Zora, try not to do it 

[Elerond]

15 hours ago, Zoraptor said:

Reporters are not primary sources unless they're also eyewitnesses. The hint is in the name: Reporters. You go to primary sources if you can, that's just... basics- that's like eschewing eyewitnesses to get the good oil from wikipedia. Still, typical of reporters to pack a sad when someone thinks they aren't important.

Reporters AI didn't interviewed lived in one of the schools AI was talking about in their report. You can make your own conclusions were they eyewitnesses or not Ukraine army putting setting their troops that they endangered civilians (which includes those reporters). 

EDIT: Dismissing reporters just because they are reporters is just arrogant and stupid, considering they they are trained to document and retell things they witness. It is their job to seek full picture and report happenings with details. So they are excellent eyewitnesses if you want to report what is happening in area where they are currently themselves working to report what is happening.

But it is good that you think reporters are unreliable to tell what is happening and are pack a sad when people don't think they are important, that is attitude that you should keep when you read reports from AI's reporters 

Edited August 9, 2022 by Elerond

[Malcador]

3 hours ago, BruceVC said:

Wow what a surprise, Zora defending AI biased and inaccurate assessment of who is really  responsible for the killings of civilians and targeting of civilian buildings. Do you know the Russians arent going to invade Ukraine, its just a training exercise 

Victim blaming is never nice to see Zora, try not to do it 

How is this victim blaming, though?

Airbase explosions in Crimea, would be interesting to see what hit it.

Edited August 9, 2022 by Malcador

[Sarex]

They are also having cases of sabotage, so it could be that too.

[Malcador]

So they were given ATACMS but told by the bosses where they can use it, perhaps ?

[Mamoulian War]

One more video of Kaboom, and it is ****ing HUUUUGE…

And this is the official version by Russian MoD.

https://t.me/bbbreaking/132365

 

Russian ministry of defence says explosions of several aerial bombs as result of accident caused the fire and further explosions at airbase in Novofedorivka. No damage to aircraft

It’s either one of the rare occassioń that Russia does not lie, or they just do not want to admit, that their S400s all accross Crimea sucks walrus balls… I leave up to you, version you’ll consider to be more plausible

 

[Malcador]

Strange in this war how it's 100% or total failure as a system.

also, guessed wrong with the strike. Well, assuming this unnamed official is telling truth

 

 

Edited August 9, 2022 by Malcador

[Mamoulian War]

Well, if we take into the account a device made in Ukraine, then the most plausible option would be a big box of Ukrainian Vodka set at the right spot. The drunk Russian Soldiers then took care of the rest

 

Edit: on more serious note, some theorycrafting after this message already appeared which are pointing to Neptune being the culprit.

 

 

Edited August 9, 2022 by Mamoulian War

[Mamoulian War]

Hmm Russian MoD has distanced itself from the report about General Vasilyev, and says, it was fake

again sorry for the white outline, but I am unable to do anything with it on my iPad

Western and Ukrainian outlets circulated a report, likely false, of a Russian general allegedly threatening to destroy Europe’s largest nuclear facility, the Russian-occupied Zaporizhzhia Nuclear Power Plant (NPP), if Russia could not hold the plant. Multiple news outlets shared a screenshot from the Russian social networking site Vkontakte that claimed to cite the Russian head of the Zaporizhia occupation garrison, Major General Valery Vasilev, stating that Russia had mined the Zaporizhzhia NPP and that the plant would be “either Russian land or a scorched desert.” The screenshot appeared to be a news report posted in a Vkontakte group run by Russian outlet Lenta Novosti Zaporizhia. The outlet itself claimed that the screenshot was from a faked group and denied writing the report. The Russian Ministry of Defense condemned the report and screenshot as a “fake” and claimed that Vasilev was in Uzbekistan at the time he was purported to have made the statement to forces at Zaporizhzhia. Regardless of the origin (or existence) of the original post, the reporting is unreliable. It is indirect and does not claim to cite an official statement or a statement made on any official Russian news or government website. 

[Elerond]

8 hours ago, Malcador said:

How is thiea, would be interesting to see what hit it.

Nothing according to Russia, as they say there was accident that caused their ammunition stores to explode

[Zoraptor]

Ukraine has plenty of suitable missiles. A decent number of the 'HiMARS' attacks are actually from tochka instead. And the Russians have been using anti ship missiles as makeshift ground attack for months.

8 hours ago, Elerond said:

Reporters AI didn't interviewed lived in one of the schools AI was talking about in their report. You can make your own conclusions were they eyewitnesses or not Ukraine army putting setting their troops that they endangered civilians (which includes those reporters). 

Well, if you insist.

Let's apply the logic of Tom Mutch and friends per the school they visited to other situations, eh? Bakhmut, in May, ~20km away from the front line, but a 'front line' town that justifies using civilian infrastructure for military purposes, despite even the journalists admitting that there were still civilians present. Right, so the definition of front line is 20km away... the width of the Gaza Strip is 6km. Will Tom and friends justify Hamas using schools etc when the furthest distance they can literally, physically, be is about 10km from the Israeli border (and if you count the sea ~5km)? Will they say that they're not disproportionately endangering civilian lives because those civilians have nowhere to go? No, of course not, because they aren't impartial and they'd be terrified of getting an AI like backlash and being called anti semitic.

Describing Bakhmut as a front line town now, sure. He was saying that in May though. There's military necessity to occupy civilian infrastructure on the front line because if you don't the enemy will, there isn't when they're 20km away, unless they've invented teleportation in which case you've got bigger problems.

Would you like a list of all the schools hit in Bakhmut that were presented as being indiscriminate attacks on civilian infrastructure, by western journalists, starting in May? Because there are a lot, and they're all presented as indiscriminate attacks, by said journalists, many of whom like Tom presumably knew outright that Ukraine was using schools as bases- but somehow failed to mention that relevant fact. You'd think that if they were actually impartial they might have though...

They also betray a pretty crappy understanding of humanitarian law, ie it applies to those you like, not just those you don't. Ultimately the reason why you shouldn't use protected civilian infrastructure for basing and why it is a warcrime unless it's of military necessity is because it erodes the protection for every school, including those that are still used as schools. That's why both Hamas and Ukraine using schools as bases is bad, and a war crime, and despite Hamas' bases being a lot closer than the one at Bakhmut.

You aren't going to see that mentioned by most journalists though, because they base their understanding of things like the Geneva Conventions and warcrimes on what they feel they should say, not what they actually do.

Quote

Dismissing reporters just because they are reporters is just arrogant and stupid, considering they they are trained to document and retell things they witness. It is their job to seek full picture and report happenings with details. So they are excellent eyewitnesses if you want to report what is happening in area where they are currently themselves working to report what is happening.

I mean in theory that's what they do. Exactly the same as, in theory, politicians serve the people who elect them- if you listen to the politicians. In reality though...

Quote

But it is good that you think reporters are unreliable to tell what is happening and are pack a sad when people don't think they are important, that is attitude that you should keep when you read reports from AI's reporters

"But it is good that you think reporters are reliable to tell what is happening and are trained to document and retell things and it is their job to seek full picture and report happenings with details, that is attitude you should keep when you read reports from AI's reporters"

Not very good at the zingers, are you?

[Malcador]

All the OSINT types and their followers musing it was done via a Hrim-2.  Seems good news all around for Ukraine lately.

ISW disagrees with the Russians blowing up the nuclear plants, for all that's worth https://www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/russian-offensive-campaign-assessment-august-8 

Whoops, Mamoulian War already posted it.

 

Edited August 9, 2022 by Malcador

[Elerond]

1 minute ago, Zoraptor said:

 

Well, if you insist.

Let's apply the logic of Tom Mutch and friends per the school they visited to other situations, eh? Bakhmut, in May, ~20km away from the front line, but a 'front line' town that justifies using civilian infrastructure for military purposes, despite even the journalists admitting that there were still civilians present. Right, so the definition of front line is 20km away... the width of the Gaza Strip is 6km. Will Tom and friends justify Hamas using schools etc when the furthest distance they can literally, physically, be is about 10km from the Israeli border (and if you count the sea ~5km)? Will they say that they're not disproportionately endangering civilian lives because those civilians have nowhere to go? No, of course not, because they aren't impartial and they'd be terrified of getting an AI like backlash and being called anti semitic.

Describing Bakhmut as a front line town now, sure. He was saying that in May though. There's military necessity to occupy civilian infrastructure on the front line because if you don't the enemy will, there isn't when they're 20km away, unless they've invented teleportation in which case you've got bigger problems.

Would you like a list of all the schools hit in Bakhmut that were presented as being indiscriminate attacks on civilian infrastructure, by western journalists, starting in May? Because there are a lot, and they're all presented as indiscriminate attacks, by said journalists, many of whom like Tom presumably knew outright that Ukraine was using schools as bases- but somehow failed to mention that relevant fact. You'd think that if they were actually impartial they might have though...

They also betray a pretty crappy understanding of humanitarian law, ie it applies to those you like, not just those you don't. Ultimately the reason why you shouldn't use protected civilian infrastructure for basing and why it is a warcrime unless it's of military necessity is because it erodes the protection for every school, including those that are still used as schools. That's why both Hamas and Ukraine using schools as bases is bad, and a war crime, and despite Hamas' bases being a lot closer than the one at Bakhmut.

You aren't going to see that mentioned by most journalists though, because they base their understanding of things like the Geneva Conventions and warcrimes on what they feel they should say, not what they actually do.

School and other civilian buildings without civilians are just buildings and using them for military operations aren't against any international law. You can even use have troops in hospitals with weapons as long as hospital is just for military personel

Journalists are civilians, so if they were present then civilians were present. Question is were their life but in risk when they shared room with Ukraine troops in the school. 

Your text betrays your crappy understanding of international humanitarian laws too, so you at least have something common and you can also add AI in same bunch, they also don't have good understanding of how humanitarian law works.

And you seem to have something against journalist as you keep attacking them even though I have not even mentioned who was the person in question (I give hint none of them was Tom Mutch). 

I find it funny that you think that journalist are so bad sources but people in Russian prison camp and troll accounts are good sources.

 

I would like to also point out as we seem to have lost from the original point which is why AI's report about Ukraine troops has got people angry, even though reports from UN and Human Right Watch that told about same issue didn't, that I do believe that Ukraine troops have broken humanitarian laws and probably also committed war  crimes during the war, and AI got people angry because they just do shallow reports with poor details and their main focus is to wrote snarky summaries to make their target sound bad. 

[Mamoulian War]

Back to the Crimea airport kaboom.

Russian MoD has stated, that no aviation was destroyed. In Ukraine though, the rumours say, that close to 40 aircrafts were destroyed, as 4 hours before the attack, satellite picture was taken, where you can count 45 aircrafts. (Picture in the Twitter thread).

I am really curious how is the real damage, as destruction of 40 out of 45 targets is IMHO news from to good to be true department…

EDIT:

The image in the thread is just a part of the airport.

I have found out the image of whole Airport 4 hours before the strike though…

Some aviation enthusiast here, who can estimate, how much would that be in USD?

 

 

Edited August 9, 2022 by Mamoulian War

[Mamoulian War]

6 hours ago, Malcador said:

Strange in this war how it's 100% or total failure as a system.

also, guessed wrong with the strike. Well, assuming this unnamed official is telling truth

 

 

Last post for tonight, but I have found one tweet very deep in the rumour department, but what the heck Even the Neptune missiles were considered rumours before Moskva was reassigned to submarine division.
 

 

Edited August 9, 2022 by Mamoulian War

[Malcador]

Yeah, looks like a huge hit. So Russians will need to abandon Crimea, pretty much.

Going to need a long time to replace all this lost equipment, too.

Edited August 9, 2022 by Malcador

[Zoraptor]

1 hour ago, Elerond said:

School and other civilian buildings without civilians are just buildings and using them for military operations aren't against any international law. You can even use have troops in hospitals with weapons as long as hospital is just for military personel

No, there's a blanket ban on using protected civilian infrastructure for military purposes without an exigent threat, ie the military benefit/ necessity must outweigh any danger to civilians. The question is what constitutes an exigent threat, hence why all the criticism of AI states that Ukraine are using 'front line' facilities- that inherently makes the threat exigent, and the use justified. I simply pointed out that their interpretation of 'front line' varies massively depending on whether they like the entity basing at schools or not, which makes them partial rather than impartial.

(Using schools is also a form of Perfidy prohibited under GC1/37 "the feigning of civilian non combatant status". You can pretty much guarantee Ukraine didn't tell Russia about the change of status, and they and reporters have complained numerous times about schools in Bakhmut being targeted while knowing they were using schools in the city as military facilities. Doesn't actually matter if that specific school was used or not, Perfidy is a warcrime specifically because it degrades legitimate protections for protected entities like schools or hospitals, or protected individuals like PoWs or medical personnel)

Quote

Journalists are civilians, so if they were present then civilians were present. Question is were their life but in risk when they shared room with Ukraine troops in the school. 

Per below it was specifically stated that not all Ukrainian civilians were removed from the Bakhmut school environs that was being used by their army.

Quote

Your text betrays your crappy understanding of international humanitarian laws too, so you at least have something common and you can also add AI in same bunch, they also don't have good understanding of how humanitarian law works.

Lol.

Quote

And you seem to have something against journalist as you keep attacking them even though I have not even mentioned who was the person in question (I give hint none of them was Tom Mutch). 

He was most definitely one of those complaining.

I'd have a lot less against journalists if they actually lived up to their self proclaimed list of virtues, but they don't.

Edited August 9, 2022 by Zoraptor

[Malcador]

1 hour ago, Elerond said:

AI got people angry because they just do shallow reports with poor details and their main focus is to wrote snarky summaries to make their target sound bad. 

Al least for common people, I don't think so, most of it stems from bad-mouthing the good guys or just people following Ukraine's stance in anything.  

[xzar_monty]

On 8/9/2022 at 1:59 AM, Mamoulian War said:

Yup, it was definitelly mistranslation. The article in Ukrainian Language is talking about “енергоблоків”, wich means indeed when translated literally into english “Energy Blocks”. The same article written in English is talking about “reactors”.

Translation is the only field in which I'd claim some authority, as I have, among other things, 25+ years of experience and close to a hundred books to my name.

It is an underappreciated field and one in which mistakes are much more common than people often recognize. Also, subtleties are very often lost (I remember Malcador pointing to a strange term in the words of the president of Finland, but this was yet another mistranslation, which M obviously couldn't know, as I'm almost certain he doesn't speak Finnish).

So anyway, this stuff is to expected. It's a crying shame, of course. There is so much of it in the papers every day.

One interesting thing that the recent world developments have brought about is that English-speaking people often tend to speak far fewer languages than many other people (indeed, apparently most of them speak just the one). So, in my experience, they have more difficulties appreciating the question than perhaps some other people do (like, try living in Belgium and you'll get to understand the phenomenon pretty well even if you never talk about it specifically). But that's just my experience, I'm not claiming anything more general than that.