Ukraine Conflict - "History never looks like history when you are living through it."

[Zoraptor]

7 hours ago, Elerond said:

The Moscow Times is not pro-western media, as its main purpose is to market Russia to foreign people

Didn't we do this a month or so ago? I guess at least the goalposts have been shifted to marketing Russia to foreigners though it's about as good at that as the Daily Heil is in the UK; albeit the Daily Fail doesn't deliberately make Brits look like a bunch of xenophobic inbred yokels.

Its purpose is to have anti Russian news that sounds like it comes from Russia for, uh, people to parrot as if it's genuine Russian media. If the positions were reversed and it was the Helsinki Herald (which had no Suomi language edition for years and is owned by a Belarussian and written in Viborg- but it would be written in Finland if the EU hadn't banned Russian media!!!) I would guarantee absolutely that it wouldn't be seen as 'marketing Finland to foreigners'.

To be fair, not quite as interesting a take as being told that RFE/RL is an unbiased and independent source on international affairs, as I have been before.

8 hours ago, xzar_monty said:

Let us pause for moment to reflect [sic] upon the fact that it is impossible to build a mirror large enough for Russia to see itself. "It's a violation of everything." Hear the indignation of the spokesperson whose country is in the process of raping babies..

Yeah, the woman responsible for that claim got sacked for being 'counterproductive'. Allegedly sacked in reality because the war crimes investigators got sick of her continually making accusations with no substance to them which were specifically designed to generate outraeg!!!1!! in westerners and nothing else.

As for Lithuania, always amusing to get another example of the west bleating about how important it is to uphold the 'rules based order' while ignoring it themselves. Not that another example is really needed though of course.

Edited June 20, 2022 by Zoraptor

[Elerond]

2 minutes ago, Zoraptor said:

Its purpose is to have anti Russian news that sounds like it comes from Russia 

Which is why you found it from every hotel lobby, air plane, train coffee house etc. aimed for tourists for decades so that tourists get anti Russian news when they were in Russia, so that they would not think that things they see are too good.

[Malcador]

6 hours ago, BruceVC said:

Why is it funny that the US and UK are condemning Russia for the invasion of Ukraine?

Really, now.

[Zoraptor]

18 minutes ago, Elerond said:

Which is why you found it from every hotel lobby, air plane, train coffee house etc. aimed for tourists for decades so that tourists get anti Russian news when they were in Russia, so that they would not think that things they see are too good.

Yeah, so it's news for foreigners, not Russians. It also hasn't had physical distribution for 5 years now, and was already primarily web based multiple years before that. MT's entire business model is predicated on news that makes westerners feel good about themselves.

We get exactly the same thing here with Chinese language stuff. Papers nominally written in NZ filled with pro CCP blather or for Epoch Times, pro Falun Gong anti CCP blather, distributed in Chinese orientated businesses.

[Darkpriest]

In regards to China... Taiwan in year 2023?

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-06-19/us-rejects-china-s-claims-over-taiwan-strait-as-concerns-grow

 

Going hand in hand with RU

https://www.reuters.com/markets/commodities/chinas-may-oil-imports-russia-soar-55-record-surpass-saudi-supply-2022-06-20/

Edited June 20, 2022 by Darkpriest

[Darkpriest]

In the EU Russia economic spat

https://www.reuters.com/world/moscow-summon-eu-ambassador-russia-over-kaliningrad-transit-kaliningrad-governor-2022-06-20/

 

Might need to dust off those coal plants, just wonder where they will get the coal from... 

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/europe-may-shift-back-coal-russia-turns-down-gas-flows-2022-06-20/

https://www.wsj.com/articles/less-russian-gas-puts-europes-winter-fuel-supply-in-jeopardy-11655725207?mod=mhp

https://www.wsj.com/articles/germany-steps-up-measures-to-conserve-gas-as-russia-slows-supply-to-europe-11655642717?mod=mhp

Edited June 20, 2022 by Darkpriest

[BruceVC]

9 hours ago, Malcador said:

Really, now.

Im asking a legitimate question unless Im misunderstanding your post? Why is it funny that the US and the UK, and most of the UN, would criticize Russia for the invasion of Ukraine

Its got nothing to do with the invasion of Iraq or other wars that the US or the UK has been involved in ?

 

 

[Lexx]

Apparently some people didn't want to fight anymore.

 

[BruceVC]

9 hours ago, Darkpriest said:

In regards to China... Taiwan in year 2023?

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-06-19/us-rejects-china-s-claims-over-taiwan-strait-as-concerns-grow

 

Going hand in hand with RU

https://www.reuters.com/markets/commodities/chinas-may-oil-imports-russia-soar-55-record-surpass-saudi-supply-2022-06-20/

As far as I know their are no sanctions from the West stopping any country from buying energy from Russia. The West doesnt decide that for any country. Its been highlighted many times from the EU that the EU and most Western countries are moving away from any dependency on Russian energy but that takes time 

China is starting to end their pointless Corona lockdown and they have a huge appetite for oil so why would it be a surprise that they would buy discounted oil from Russia? Its the same as India

This is to be  expected and has got nothing to do  with the real Western sanctions on Russia which are continuing 

The overall sustainability and strength of any economy is not just about energy sales and many other factors define this

But sanctions are a  long term game as I keep mentioning 

[BruceVC]

10 hours ago, Darkpriest said:

In the EU Russia economic spat

https://www.reuters.com/world/moscow-summon-eu-ambassador-russia-over-kaliningrad-transit-kaliningrad-governor-2022-06-20/

 

Might need to dust off those coal plants, just wonder where they will get the coal from... 

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/europe-may-shift-back-coal-russia-turns-down-gas-flows-2022-06-20/

https://www.wsj.com/articles/less-russian-gas-puts-europes-winter-fuel-supply-in-jeopardy-11655725207?mod=mhp

https://www.wsj.com/articles/germany-steps-up-measures-to-conserve-gas-as-russia-slows-supply-to-europe-11655642717?mod=mhp

Dark I appreciate how you are not using ZH links anymore

I consider Reuters, wsj, Bloomberg, CNN, Al-Jazeera, BBC, Sky and other websites to be credible. That doesnt mean they dont make mistakes or get things wrong sometimes but its much better than the mass repetition of ZH links  and other pro-Russian propaganda mouthpieces 

I do try to read these if I have time so keep up the good work and  posting of non-ZH links 

[Darkpriest]

@BruceVC

 

Eh? I've always been using multiple sources. Maybe not TheSun, HuffPost or other such garbage, who have zero idea on math and common sense. 

If you want to have a laugh though, i can point also some pro-russia link sourced at ZH and authored by the Escobar guy. 

https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/escobar-st-petersburg-sets-stage-war-economic-corridors

I do read such, because it shows what specific parties want you to think the world will look like and behave. 

I read throughh such mussings of some sources to challange my viewpoint and assess what if any risks are probable and how probable and in what timeframe such risk could potentially materialize. 

Edited June 21, 2022 by Darkpriest

[Mamoulian War]

18 hours ago, Darkpriest said:

Seems UA might have some ammo issues. 

https://www.welt.de/politik/ausland/article239461179/Carlo-Masala-Den-Ukrainern-geht-langsam-die-Munition-aus.html

That one is pretty old news, from all of the sources which I have found about this, it looks like, the news is that they are running out of Soviet Era ammunition, which they had on stock before the war. After the war, this ammunition was donated by most of the eastern european NATO countries, so they should be safe for some more time. And they are starting to stockpile the new NATO standard ammunition. Also, Ukraine would be completely stupid, if they would not manufacture this kind of munitions somewhere in the Western Ukraine, or made a deal about it with Poland or other eastern european country.

[Mamoulian War]

15 hours ago, Zoraptor said:

As for Lithuania, always amusing to get another example of the west bleating about how important it is to uphold the 'rules based order' while ignoring it themselves. Not that another example is really needed though of course.

Th thing is, Lithuania is still upholding the order per the treaty between EU and Russia. They did not stop the transport of passengers, nor any goods, which are not on sanction list. And if Russia want to send some of their own microprocessors to their exclave , they can still use their ship lines from St. Petersburg

 

Oh and as another counter-argument here is and example how Russia's view on upholding the order looks like

 

Edited June 21, 2022 by Mamoulian War

[BruceVC]

33 minutes ago, Mamoulian War said:

Th thing is, Lithuania is still upholding the order per the treaty between EU and Russia. They did not stop the transport of passengers, nor any goods, which are not on sanction list. And if Russia want to send some of their own microprocessors to their exclave , they can still use their ship lines from St. Petersburg

 

Oh and as another counter-argument here is and example how Russia's view on upholding the order looks like

 

At least the Russians are being honest about weaponizing famine and starvation that will impact the most impoverished countries in Africa and the ME 

Its so rare to hear  anything truthful from the Kremlin 

[Mamoulian War]

Oh and I have just found out the info about current state of vehicle losses for Russia in 4 months.

I Putin still issues a threats all around the world, especially to Kazakhstan, who laughed to Putin's face in St. Petersburgh when talked about Luhansk and Donetsk recognition.

[Malcador]

8 hours ago, BruceVC said:

Im asking a legitimate question unless Im misunderstanding your post? Why is it funny that the US and the UK, and most of the UN, would criticize Russia for the invasion of Ukraine

Its got nothing to do with the invasion of Iraq or other wars that the US or the UK has been involved in ?

And why does it have nothing to do with that ?  The humour is in any of the P5 saying something like that, as well. 

German howitzers on the field, Melnyk is probably going to call them the 4th Reich if they don't hand over every Leopard, still.

 

[Elerond]

9 minutes ago, Malcador said:

And why does it have nothing to do with that ?  The humour is in any of the P5 saying something like that, as well. 

German howitzers on the field, Melnyk is probably going to call them the 4th Reich if they don't hand over every Leopard, still.

 

Hopefully that is stock photo and not Ukraine actually using their new weaponry in stupid way 

[Malcador]

3 minutes ago, Elerond said:

Hopefully that is stock photo and not Ukraine actually using their new weaponry in stupid way 

Probably some Bundeswehr exercise (the insignia is there...hopefully they took those off before delivery)  The way combat footage works in this war, it'd be on a vertically shot video with some terrible music accompanying it.

 

[xzar_monty]

19 hours ago, Zoraptor said:

As for Lithuania, always amusing to get another example of the west bleating about how important it is to uphold the 'rules based order' while ignoring it themselves. Not that another example is really needed though of course.

With all due respect, that looks like pretty silly whataboutism to me. I spoke about Russia's ridiculous comments on Lithuania, and you bringing up "the west bleating" is changing the subject altogether. I didn't say anything about the west. I am not ignorant of the faults of the west.

It's true that most subjects are complex and most things have repercussions and implications, but when someone says "X looks stupid doing Y", a derogatory response concerning parties other than X and actions other than Y does not look like adult discussion / reasonable argumentation in my book. Anyone can do that at any time no matter what the subject, and it's almost never a good idea.

[xzar_monty]

On 6/20/2022 at 5:13 PM, Malcador said:

Wonder what their response would be, not sure they can damage Lithuania, definitely not military.

This is a very interesting question, and I wonder about it, too. As for "definitely not military", I am inclined to agree with you, but then Russia has very recently simulated attacks against the Baltic states. I interpret this as sabre-rattling directed at the forthcoming NATO summit, although I don't see much of a point in it even if I look at it like that.

Even though I don't live that far away, I have absolutely no idea how Russia could realistically damage Lithuania without using military means. Perhaps Russia's rage stems from this: it's possible that they have no idea, either. (Here, I am reminded of what a local military expert pointed out: it is impossible not to provoke Russia, because if they want to be provoked, they will find reason for provocation; if all else fails, they will attack their own land and view that as enemy provocation, which they have actually done in the past. So a provoked Russia doesn't necessarily mean anything.)

[Lexx]

53 minutes ago, Elerond said:

Hopefully that is stock photo and not Ukraine actually using their new weaponry in stupid way 

"Photo by BMVg_Bundeswehr" so probably stock photo.

[xzar_monty]

The tweet by Alex Kokcharov reads: "In the four-months war in #Ukraine, #Russia's army has lost 23-42% of its tanks and up to 14% of its armored vehicles."

Does anyone have an idea how long it might realistically take to cover losses such as these?

Edited June 21, 2022 by xzar_monty

[bugarup]

21 hours ago, Zoraptor said:

As for Lithuania, always amusing to get another example of the west bleating about how important it is to uphold the 'rules based order' while ignoring it themselves. Not that another example is really needed though of course.

Yeah, Europe absolutely must always sport shiny white unsullied fluffy coat and never push back against the country that broke probably every international agreement there is. So what if we are dealing with the bully that sees adherence to rules as weakness to be exploited while mocking and disrespecting those who do try to live by the laws, we have to be nice and let the warmongering **** walk all over us because something something Iraq and Palestine and Yemen something something probably.

[bugarup]

2 hours ago, xzar_monty said:

Even though I don't live that far away, I have absolutely no idea how Russia could realistically damage Lithuania without using military means.

I've read a hypothesis they might declare they have no other choice but to fly their stuff from Belarus over our sky and have their war planes hover at the borders with an occasional "accidental" breach, so on one hand its full aggression, on the other, we can't really shoot down their cargo planes. Guess we'll know soon enough anyway.

[xzar_monty]

48 minutes ago, bugarup said:

I've read a hypothesis they might declare they have no other choice but to fly their stuff from Belarus over our sky and have their war planes hover at the borders with an occasional "accidental" breach, so on one hand its full aggression, on the other, we can't really shoot down their cargo planes. Guess we'll know soon enough anyway.

Breaches of both Finnish and Swedish airspace have been fairly common recently. Russia is a monster, has always been.

Interestingly, in August 1942, Russia (the Soviet Union) had two "lines" on the front. The first was there to attack the Germans, and the second was there to shoot at anyone from the first line who wanted to escape the fighting. Apparently, they're still using this strategy in Ukraine. Russia stands out as the country who have no qualms whatsoever about killing their own.