Ukraine Conflict - Alle Dinge unterliegen Interpretation je nachdem, was Interpretation zu einem bestimmten Zeitpunkt herrscht, ist eine Funktion der Macht und nicht die Wahrheit

[xzar_monty]

9 minutes ago, Azdeus said:

Not to mention that we would be able to continue to be a mediator with other countries like we have been historically.

Historically, after not being an empire anymore, you have regarded wars as business opportunities for Sweden. Selling huge amounts of iron to the Nazis, and so on. Bofors also has an untarnished reputation as a company that uses bribes, most famously in India.

Edited May 3, 2022 by xzar_monty

[Azdeus]

5 minutes ago, xzar_monty said:

Historically, after not being an empire anymore, you have regarded wars as business opportunities for Sweden. Selling huge amounts of iron to the Nazis, and so on. Bofors also has an untarnished reputation as a company that uses bribes, most famously in India.

We stopped selling to the US when they invaded Vietnam, so goes both ways, then again our politicians after Palme lacks any kind of determination and guts. Selling iron to the Nazis was done to ensure that we didn't get invaded more than to make money.

[xzar_monty]

12 minutes ago, Azdeus said:

We stopped selling to the US when they invaded Vietnam, so goes both ways, then again our politicians after Palme lacks any kind of determination and guts. Selling iron to the Nazis was done to ensure that we didn't get invaded more than to make money.

Fair enough, it is complicated. But one thing bothers me a bit: if you haven't had any politicians with determination and guts since Palme, why do you see Sweden as mediators? Mediating requires determination and guts.

[Azdeus]

2 minutes ago, xzar_monty said:

Fair enough, it is complicated. But one thing bothers me a bit: if you haven't had any politicians with determination and guts since Palme, why do you see Sweden as mediators? Mediating requires determination and guts.

I never claimed we were successful or good at it!

Sillyness aside, our diplomats are semi-professional, I assume, the limp-wristedness from our politicians might be infectious though.

[BruceVC]

26 minutes ago, Azdeus said:

The exact same promise already exists among EU countries, and each NATO country decides for itself how it would help Sweden incase of invasion, no one is obligated to send boots on the ground. But if we are in NATO we definetly become a target for strikes, even more so if we were to have nukes.

We're not neutral, we're unaligned, we are definetly taking stances left and right, and it's the only position that we actually can afford. Not to mention that we would be able to continue to be a mediator with other countries like we have been historically. If we are to have any kind of alliance it should be a Nordic one, among equals.

Interesting points. 

But joining NATO is also about the fact that the US provides the most funding and resources towards it and it has an immediate military that will be deployed and utilized if any NATO country is attacked by Russia. So its not just a promise, it will be acted on. 

You know I support the EU unequivocally so what I am about to say is not a criticism towards the EU but without the US military support I question the EU military response if Sweden was attacked and how effective it would be 

As I mentioned earlier since Putins War our world has changed forever and you  should try to  see joining NATO as insurance. And its insurance I never would have suggested until 2 months ago 

And then its highly unlikely Putin will ever attack any NATO country so dont see this as the prelude to WW3 or something similar 

 

 

[BruceVC]

7 minutes ago, Azdeus said:

I never claimed we were successful or good at it!

Sillyness aside, our diplomats are semi-professional, I assume, the limp-wristedness from our politicians might be infectious though.

I mentioned this before to you but I have gained new respect for the SJ and positive role that Sweden and the Nordic countries have played in the world since the Cold War

Sweden has been very consistent with funding or defunding countries that dont respect human rights and I would be proud of that if I was Swedish citizen

You dont really have experience at modern day  diplomacy or mediation but it excels at things like its moral compass and value system and the culture that exists in the Nordic countries that is admired by many people globally 

[Azdeus]

22 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

Interesting points. 

But joining NATO is also about the fact that the US provides the most funding and resources towards it and it has an immediate military that will be deployed and utilized if any NATO country is attacked by Russia. So its not just a promise, it will be acted on. 

You know I support the EU unequivocally so what I am about to say is not a criticism towards the EU but without the US military support I question the EU military response if Sweden was attacked and how effective it would be 

As I mentioned earlier since Putins War our world has changed forever and you  should try to  see joining NATO as insurance. And its insurance I never would have suggested until 2 months ago 

And then its highly unlikely Putin will ever attack any NATO country so dont see this as the prelude to WW3 or something similar 

 

 

The US would spend the most on military with or without NATO, it means nothing. The US deploying to Sweden if we were part of NATO would be dependent on the political will of the country, the next Trump would definetly not act.

The EU's military response is as much of an assurance as is NATO's.

The world is the same as it has been in 2014, the only thing that has really changed is the view of Russian military competency for anyone that has been following the war, and some shock at the inhumanity of Russians, and astonishment that any Ukrainian can walk like a normal human being with balls that size.

12 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

Sweden has been very consistent with funding or defunding countries that dont respect human rights and I would be proud of that if I was Swedish citizen

List of treaties unsigned or unratified by the United States - Wikipedia

The only country in the world that hasn't ratified the Convention of Childrens Rights...

So what you're saying is that Sweden should defund the US? I like it, and I wholeheartedly agree.

Edit; Also they don't recognize the ICC.

Edited May 3, 2022 by Azdeus

[213374U]

I mean, if we're going to start pointing fingers at countries doing business with unsavory international players and/or exploiting war as business opportunities, I'm pretty sure that's not going to go the way some folks would like. But let's do it because all that copium ain't gonna inhale itself. Off the top of my head, arms deals alone (that's not even considering commodities and services exports):

France:

• Apartheid South Africa
• Videla's Argentina
• Various Gulf monarchies and Turkey
• Egypt
• Er... Russia, in circumvention of EU sanctions and until ~2020?

Germany* (actually ahead of France in volume):

• Saudi (of course), UAE, Qatar...
• Egypt
• Pinochet's Chile
• South Africa (until '92)
• Indonesia
• Turkey

Italy and Spain are basically more of the same. They just have a proportionally smaller arms industry.

United States:

• LMFAO

 

Starting to see the pattern yet?

Daily reminder that:

1. Saudi Arabia is currently engaged in a war on Yemen that's allegedly an actual genocide, but we don't care and don't talk about that because Houthis are too brown to matter anyway.
2. Egypt is since 2013 a textbook dictatorship but we don't talk about that either because they pay well and it's an unfortunate product of the Arab spring revolutions that were sure to bring peace freedom and justice to my new empire.

*Bonus: German-made ATGMs have been used to blow up German-made MBTs in Syria, can't make this **** up.

Edited May 3, 2022 by 213374U

[xzar_monty]

1 hour ago, Azdeus said:

The exact same promise already exists among EU countries, and each NATO country decides for itself how it would help Sweden incase of invasion, no one is obligated to send boots on the ground. But if we are in NATO we definetly become a target for strikes, even more so if we were to have nukes.

Given the range of nuclear missiles and Sweden's proximity to Russia, there's essentially no way either Sweden or Finland will have nukes. (Of course, there are nukes very close to a NATO border right now, but on the other side, i.e. in Kaliningrad and in the north, close to Norway.)

The Baltic countries have been NATO members for quite some time now, and we haven't seen any Russian "little green men" there. We have seen them elsewhere, in neighboring countries not in NATO. This kind of gives you the impression that while there is no respect for NATO in Russia, there is some apprehension -- there is no question that Putin would like to invade all of the Baltic nations if he could.

Edited May 3, 2022 by xzar_monty

[BruceVC]

52 minutes ago, Azdeus said:

The US would spend the most on military with or without NATO, it means nothing. The US deploying to Sweden if we were part of NATO would be dependent on the political will of the country, the next Trump would definetly not act.

The EU's military response is as much of an assurance as is NATO's.

The world is the same as it has been in 2014, the only thing that has really changed is the view of Russian military competency for anyone that has been following the war, and some shock at the inhumanity of Russians, and astonishment that any Ukrainian can walk like a normal human being with balls that size.

List of treaties unsigned or unratified by the United States - Wikipedia

The only country in the world that hasn't ratified the Convention of Childrens Rights...

So what you're saying is that Sweden should defund the US? I like it, and I wholeheartedly agree.

Edit; Also they don't recognize the ICC.

No Im not saying Sweden should defund the US, I am saying Sweden should declare  war on the US !!! 

But you wrong about the world not changing, it has changed inexorably and forever but this change is a positive one as you will see in the future 

Putins War has made the EU, and most of the world, realize that security, sovereignty  and freedom cannot and should never be taken for granted. This means that organizations like NATO have a purpose and they need to be supported and funded. It also means that many  EU countries need to ensure they  increase military spending so they not dependent on the US as the current main funder of NATO

And we seeing this change already with the likes of  Germany increasing their military spending

 

[Azdeus]

9 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

No Im not saying Sweden should defund the US, I am saying Sweden should declare  war on the US !!! 

But you wrong about the world not changing, it has changed inexorably and forever but this change is a positive one as you will see in the future 

Putins War has made the EU, and most of the world, realize that security, sovereignty  and freedom cannot and should never be taken for granted. This means that organizations like NATO have a purpose and they need to be supported and funded. It also means that many  EU countries need to ensure they  increase military spending so they not dependent on the US as the current main funder of NATO

And we seeing this change already with the likes of  Germany increasing their military spending

 

I like where your heads at, sound like a great plan that can't go wrong, noone would expect it, least of all Swedes.

That unity will last until Zelensky asks for help to rebuild, then it won't be as attractive anymore, the only ones that are happy with the current direction are the arms companies.

[BruceVC]

13 minutes ago, Azdeus said:

I like where your heads at, sound like a great plan that can't go wrong, noone would expect it, least of all Swedes.

That unity will last until Zelensky asks for help to rebuild, then it won't be as attractive anymore, the only ones that are happy with the current direction are the arms companies.

You raise an important point,  " once Putins War is over will the West be as committed to helping rebuild Ukraine" ?

I believe the West wont abandon Ukraine in this regard but we will have to wait and see

 

[xzar_monty]

21 minutes ago, Azdeus said:

That unity will last until Zelensky asks for help to rebuild, then it won't be as attractive anymore, the only ones that are happy with the current direction are the arms companies.

I wouldn't be as cynical as that, although I don't think there's any reason for naivety, either. The US, for instance, has committed to an awful lot of aid. So, my sense is that aid to Ukraine will continue, genuine goodwill shall continue and there will be some rebuilding because of this. How much, of course, is impossible to say.

 

In other news: rumours about Putin's forthcoming cancer operation gather pace to the extent that they are mentioned in reputable newspapers (which, however, point out that they are unconfirmed rumours). Of course we don't know if there's any truth in this. But if there is, it is going to be one heck of an operation, from a political point of view, and from the point of view of a potential -- shall we say -- health risk.

Edited May 3, 2022 by xzar_monty

[xzar_monty]

Interesting photo from Moscow -- apparently there's a new campaign going on. And it's not silly beyond description, not by any means.

 

[rjshae]

7 hours ago, BruceVC said:

Interesting read around how artillery  will change  the nature of this  war and it explains this in summary with the quote below 

Russians forces are using artillery to extricate themselves from Ukrainian ambushes and inflict fatalities as well as to avoid having to go “into the teeth of these very high-end Western weapons,” including Javelin and NLAW anti-armor missiles, that already have destroyed some Russian units, Cranny-Evans said.

“They’re just going to sit back and let their long-range assets to do the work because they don’t have the manpower to waste,” he said.

That artillery battle hasn't been all one-sided, and the Ukrainian side is growing increasingly deadly with Western aid.

U.S. HIMARS Rocket Artillery Going To Ukraine Would Be A Game Changer

[Malcador]

4 hours ago, Azdeus said:

That unity will last until Zelensky asks for help to rebuild, then it won't be as attractive anymore, the only ones that are happy with the current direction are the arms companies.

Well, the help they'll send after isn't going to be "free", I would guess. Not quite IMF debt slavery, but, heh.

[Lexx]

The rebuilding that will follow can make lots of people rich. Not necessarily us.. but you know, someone sure will fill their pockets.

[Malcador]

5 hours ago, 213374U said:

Saudi Arabia is currently engaged in a war on Yemen that's allegedly an actual genocide, but we don't care and don't talk about that because Houthis are too brown to matter anyway.

I think the defense is not that they're brown, is that the "situation is complex".  Really is just not getting saturated with media on it, I think.

[Mamoulian War]

5 hours ago, Azdeus said:

I like where your heads at, sound like a great plan that can't go wrong, noone would expect it, least of all Swedes.

That unity will last until Zelensky asks for help to rebuild, then it won't be as attractive anymore, the only ones that are happy with the current direction are the arms companies.

Something like Marshal Plan needs to be done, unless you want to have on your eastern borders besides Russia, ****loads of Ukrainian people with balls bigger than whales, without a chance to integrate back to normal society... That would be a road to another disaster. It will cost a lot, but the other option would cost even more...

[kanisatha]

16 hours ago, Azdeus said:

I honestly don't want to join NATO, even less when there is no acceptance for dissenting opinions about it, you're automagically an anti-American onahole for Russia and Putin.

Nothing personal against you or any other Swede here but as an American I also don't want Sweden in NATO. Finland yes, Sweden no. I feel Sweden will be a pain in the ass within NATO much like France and Turkey, and furthermore I continue to take very strong offence at past anti-US Swedish actions. Just my personal feelings.

[kanisatha]

9 hours ago, BruceVC said:

Interesting read around how artillery  will change  the nature of this  war and it explains this in summary with the quote below 

Russians forces are using artillery to extricate themselves from Ukrainian ambushes and inflict fatalities as well as to avoid having to go “into the teeth of these very high-end Western weapons,” including Javelin and NLAW anti-armor missiles, that already have destroyed some Russian units, Cranny-Evans said.

“They’re just going to sit back and let their long-range assets to do the work because they don’t have the manpower to waste,” he said.

 

Yes true, but what's different is that now increasingly the Ukrainian side also has long-range strike assets to hit back at the Russians. And if Putin's goal is to take the Donbas and southern Ukraine, they're the ones who will need to put boots on the ground in those areas.

[Mamoulian War]

4 hours ago, xzar_monty said:

I wouldn't be as cynical as that, although I don't think there's any reason for naivety, either. The US, for instance, has committed to an awful lot of aid. So, my sense is that aid to Ukraine will continue, genuine goodwill shall continue and there will be some rebuilding because of this. How much, of course, is impossible to say.

 

In other news: rumours about Putin's forthcoming cancer operation gather pace to the extent that they are mentioned in reputable newspapers (which, however, point out that they are unconfirmed rumours). Of course we don't know if there's any truth in this. But if there is, it is going to be one heck of an operation, from a political point of view, and from the point of view of a potential -- shall we say -- health risk.

The rumoured guy (Nikolai Patrushev), who should be in charge while he is "away", is as big **** as Putin himself, so that would be no win... unless the other siloviks are less afraid of him than of Putin.

Also there has been opened a bag with ****loads of rumours about may 9th...

- Russia will attack Moldova - security experts say

- Russia will start general mobilization - different security experts say

- Russia will end the war - says Orban to the Pope

 

And I bet there are circulating even more of them...

 

and in other news Lavrov 1uped his game and accused Israel of openly supporting nazis in Ukraine...

[kanisatha]

7 hours ago, pmp10 said:

More and more rumors are flying that Putin will announce mobilization on 9th of May.
Presumably among some political objectives like annexation of DPR / LPR and resolution of Kherson status.

Yup. A US defense official said this same thing today, that Russia's goals now are to annex Donetsk and Luhansk outright, and create a puppet statelet called "New Russia" in Kherson. And May 9 may be when all of this gets publicly announced. Then, once those territories are annexed, Russia plans to officially declare war on Ukraine by claiming it is Ukraine that is occupying and threatening Russian territory.

[Malcador]

8 minutes ago, Mamoulian War said:

Something like Marshal Plan needs to be done, unless you want to have on your eastern borders besides Russia, ****loads of Ukrainian people with balls bigger than whales, without a chance to integrate back to normal society... That would be a road to another disaster. It will cost a lot, but the other option would cost even more...

Wonder what will happen then in the worst case as you're outlining if we don't give Ukraine lots of money for free.

[Mamoulian War]

3 minutes ago, Malcador said:

Wonder what will happen then in the worst case as you're outlining if we don't give Ukraine lots of money for free.

I would not call it a lot of money for free, and I bet it would not be for free, but well, I can tell you what happened in Eastern Europe after the fall of Iron Curtain, all of the ex soldiers and martial arts athletes started their own Mafia style organizations, because no one cared enough to intervene. A lot of people died, and only now are some of these **** getting jailed, when people started to care... I think it happens also in western countries, if they do not have good quality social integration programs for veterans. They might get swayed onto the easy money path, because they feel everybody ****ed them over after they risked their lives for them

Edited May 3, 2022 by Mamoulian War