Suggestions for a Two-Handed, Heavy Armor Paladin (Kind Wayfarer) and multiclass options?

[NamelessDragon]

Hello! Fairly new player here, this place seemed nice for asking some questions about builds and such.

So, I'd like to run a classic paladin with a greatsword and heavy/plate armor, though as I understand it the recovery time and such from the heavier armor throws something of a wrench into things. It's alright if I can't be an absolute damage monster or anything, I mean anything to up damage would be nice, but I'm also fine fulfilling a tank/damage soaker role with the paladin's support capabilities sprinkled in. Also apparently Flames of Devotion with Kind Wayfarer has a healing effect that procs twice with a Dual Wield build? Which sounds interesting, but it's thematically not what I'm looking for here- and the other classes barring Shieldbearers (which as the name suggests, seems like it's ideal with a shield instead of a big two-hander?) don't hold the same RP appeal.

Am I sacrificing too much with some of these decisions or would it work decently enough, and would something like Turn-Based be better for this sort of thing than RTwP? (I'm comfortable with both, I'm just wondering)

Also what about multiclassing options? I think I like the sound of an Arcane Knight of the generalist or Evoker variety, who's focused on self-buffing and the occasional blasting when possible. Would it work well for a tank idea like this? The other one that has my attention is a Crusader with the Devoted subclass- from what I could find by searching around that's apparently also a good option. Any thoughts on all this?

[Porkchopsandwiches247]

Sounds like a perfect fit could be getting Whispers of the Endless path from Periki’s Overlook. An upgrade allows a full attack for any miss against you, so you can overcome that slow attack speed from heavy armor just through sky high defense (that you should have through a Paladin in the first place). And it attacks in an AoE too!

I personally wouldnt recommend long casting classes with heavy armor…they take forever to fire anything off. But you can make it work.

Devoted + that Whispers of the Endless Path + the stance that allows for free attacks on melee kills will cause you to get tons of free attacks and basically be invincible. Plus Armoured Grace + a pet can take a TON of the sting out of the heavy armor youd want to wear. Not to mention the Perception buffs you can give yourself. Possibly could be boring though.

Trickster Rogue + Paladin might be fun too. Riposte gives another chance for a counterattack on miss, and the defense spells buffs can greatly help fuel that. Then you can have shenanigans like applying multiple endless DoTs on the enemies (Gouging Strike+Brand Enemy upgrade).

Also one more Ill mention is Herald. Chants are passive, so even if youre slow they still give full effect. If you get the passive damage ones (Soft Winds and Dragon Thrashed) + the armor that also has a damaging aura, you can weaken and kill enemies just standing there. Combine with summons + the Energized invocation and you can even chain Interrupt enemies in an AoE. Or of course you can just choose chants that buff your party as the ultimate tank/passive buffer.

Edited February 10, 2022 by Porkchopsandwiches247

[dgray62]

If you want to go with Kind Wayfarer, you might consider dual wielding. When you use White Flames while dual wielding it procs twice, which gives you double the healing. If you want to do with a 2-handed paladin build I strongly recommend Steel Garrote/trickster or Steel Garrote/Blood mage, in both cases wielding WotEP. This weapon is particularly nice for the Arcane Knight. You can stand around, casting spells while buffed with high deflection. Anyone who attacks you will likely miss, triggering offensive parry. This will passively harm and debuff them while healing you. It's a great deal of fun.

For dual wielding, a Kind Wayfarer/skald would be great. Each attack will heal you and your allies while giving you two (or, if you wield Sun & Moon, 3) chances to crit and gain a phrase. And if you wear the Ring of Focused Flame, it will add +10 ACC when you use White Flame, and the fire head on Sun & Moon will also benefit from this with every attack.

[NamelessDragon]

7 hours ago, Porkchopsandwiches247 said:

Sounds like a perfect fit could be getting Whispers of the Endless path from Periki’s Overlook. An upgrade allows a full attack for any miss against you, so you can overcome that slow attack speed from heavy armor just through sky high defense (that you should have through a Paladin in the first place). And it attacks in an AoE too!

Sounds like a fun one!

As for casters, from what I understood, a lot of the Wizard's self buffs are extremely short or outright instantaneous? Which is what appealed to me if I'm going full tank.

7 hours ago, Porkchopsandwiches247 said:

Devoted + that Whispers of the Endless Path + the stance that allows for free attacks on melee kills will cause you to get tons of free attacks and basically be invincible. Plus Armoured Grace + a pet can take a TON of the sting out of the heavy armor youd want to wear. Not to mention the Perception buffs you can give yourself. Possibly could be boring though.

Interesting! Sounds good, I'll also keep in mind the Herald.

2 hours ago, dgray62 said:

If you want to go with Kind Wayfarer, you might consider dual wielding.

Ah, yeah, I know about the FoD bit but as noted- I think I just prefer a two-hander because it fits what I'd like thematically, so I'd rather not switch unless I absolutely have to. Steel Garrote/Bleak Walkers also do not appeal to me from an RP perspective.

Good to hear about the Arcane Knight stuff though!

 

[Boeroer]

12 hours ago, Porkchopsandwiches247 said:

Sounds like a perfect fit could be getting Whispers of the Endless path from Periki’s Overlook. An upgrade allows a full attack for any miss against you, so you can overcome that slow attack speed from heavy armor just through sky high defense (that you should have through a Paladin in the first place). And it attacks in an AoE too!

Don't know if you meant the Offensive Parry with "attacks in an AoE, too" but I wanted to point out that Offensive Parry is not a Full Attack (with cone and all) but a single target weapon attack with its own stats. It also causes dazed when it hits. This option is very nice for a Steel Garrote/Bloodmage because it's easy for them to reach very high deflection and at the same time drain health from all the parries (Steel Garrote passive) - which can fuel your Bloodmage spells (Blood Sacrifice). Imo it's a very cool concept. Playing a Steel Garrote can be challenging though - I mean dialogue-wise because of the dispositions.

Kind Wayfarer also works. Two Hander with White Flames' healing is suboptimal - but it will do.

A very solid build is always Paladin/Chanter. If going Kind Wayfarer I think Troubadour fits best. I'd  use Exalted Endurance (Paladin) + Ancient Memory (Chanter) for nice and strong passive healing for me and my allies, stack Eternal Devotion + Aefyllath Mith Fyr for nice melee damage on my part (or use Shared Flames' for more dmg support - but range is meh). Heal on the spot with Lay on Hands and White Flames, use Invocations to either call summons, damage in an AoE of buff you and your party.

Eternal Endurance's lash also works with invocations and spells. So it will put some additional burn damage to offensive, damaging abilities which is cool for either Arcana Knight or Herald. 

An often overlooked combo imo is Paladin/Stalker. It has very good passive AR and deflection, an additional body (Animal Companion) and very high potential accuracy (+10 from FoD, +10 from Ring of Focused Flames, +10 from Stalker's Link, up to +20 from Hunter's Claw...). Also you can revive and heal your Animal Companion multiple times. The Great Sword Effort fits nicely because its DoT will unlock Predator's Sense.

A Crusader is often labeled boring, but I found if you pick mostly offensive abilities and let the defensive passives plus a few actives just work it's a pretty solid off-tank/damage hybrid than can be fun to play. Damage per hit can be pretty high if you employ Inspired Beacon and all the other little dmg bonuses (Sworn Enemy, FoD, Weapon Spec + Mastery, Two Handed Style and so on - even using the Great Sword modal can make sense if you combine Ring of Focused Flame, Disciplined Strikes and FoD for high ACC strikes). Penetration with Devoted and maybe even Scion of Flame (+1 PEN for FoD) is also nice. Tried some hours with Voidwheel and it was pretty cool.

A weapon option that I wouldn't toss aside and which also looks a bit like a Great Sword is Esrocs, especially Blade of the Endless Paths (if you pick that then there will be no Whispers of the Endless Paths). It not only debuffs enemies' defenses but also lifts you ACC during the fight. This is especially nice with an Arcane Knight because the Essential Phantom (Wizard spell) will also get your items and that way you can stack twice the deflection debuff on an enemy which can be very good against tough boss enemies.

Edited February 11, 2022 by Boeroer

[NamelessDragon]

3 hours ago, Boeroer said:

Kind Wayfarer also works. Two Hander with White Flames' healing is suboptimal - but it will do.

So does the double heal with White Flames actually make *that* much of a difference for dual wield to be much more preferable on a Wayfarer? Honestly, if the two-handed fantasy doesn't work out all that well with my choice of Paladin, I'm just willing to switch over entirely to a Devoted Fighter and run something like a Battlemage multi with Wizard, I hear Whispers of the Endless Paths has nice synergy with that kind of build.

So I'm considering a few options here. Alternately, how about turtling up further as a Shieldbearer sword/shield with the Wizard and further trying to lean in on the tank side? Would the extra-defensiveness from the self-buffing synergize well or?
 

3 hours ago, Boeroer said:

A Crusader is often labeled boring, but I found if you pick mostly offensive abilities and let the defensive passives plus a few actives just work it's a pretty solid off-tank/damage hybrid than can be fun to play. Damage per hit can be pretty high if you employ Inspired Beacon and all the other little dmg bonuses (Sworn Enemy, FoD, Weapon Spec + Mastery, Two Handed Style and so on - even using the Great Sword modal can make sense if you combine Ring of Focused Flame, Disciplined Strikes and FoD for high ACC strikes). Penetration with Devoted and maybe even Scion of Flame (+1 PEN for FoD) is also nice. Tried some hours with Voidwheel and it was pretty cool.

This sounds pretty good as well

3 hours ago, Boeroer said:

A weapon option that I wouldn't toss aside and which also looks a bit like a Great Sword is Esrocs, especially Blade of the Endless Paths (if you pick that then there will be no Whispers of the Endless Paths). It not only debuffs enemies' defenses but also lifts you ACC during the fight. This is especially nice with an Arcane Knight because the Essential Phantom (Wizard spell) will also get your items and that way you can stack twice the deflection debuff on an enemy which can be very good against tough boss enemies.

Don't Estocs only do piercing damage though? I thought that was resisted more often and by more things than slashing and crushing, does that make a difference or?

Edited February 11, 2022 by NamelessDragon

[Kaylon]

Paladin/Soulblade is another option - great defense, accuracy and damage. 

[Elric Galad]

3 hours ago, NamelessDragon said:

Don't Estocs only do piercing damage though? I thought that was resisted more often and by more things than slashing and crushing, does that make a difference or?

As long as you don't play Devoted, switching to a backup weapon is always possible. Pierce is resisted often by high level skeletons and a few Blights, but as long as your whole playstyle doesn't rely on a particular weapon, it is not that bad. Pierce Immune are still a limited fraction of the fights.

Compared to Greatsword, it doesn't make a big difference, since some fights do require crush damages anyway.

You always need a backup weapon anyway, unless maybe when using a crush/x dual type.

[Porkchopsandwiches247]

7 hours ago, Boeroer said:

Don't know if you meant the Offensive Parry with "attacks in an AoE, too" but I wanted to point out that Offensive Parry is not a Full Attack (with cone and all) but a single target weapon attack with its own stats. It also causes dazed when it hits. This option is very nice for a Steel Garrote/Bloodmage because it's easy for them to reach very high deflection and at the same time drain health from all the parries (Steel Garrote passive) - which can fuel your Bloodmage spells (Blood Sacrifice). Imo it's a very cool concept. Playing a Steel Garrote can be challenging though - I mean dialogue-wise because of the dispositions.

Kind Wayfarer also works. Two Hander with White Flames' healing is suboptimal - but it will do.

A very solid build is always Paladin/Chanter. If going Kind Wayfarer I think Troubadour fits best. I'd  use Exalted Endurance (Paladin) + Ancient Memory (Chanter) for nice and strong passive healing for me and my allies, stack Eternal Devotion + Aefyllath Mith Fyr for nice melee damage on my part (or use Shared Flames' for more dmg support - but range is meh). Heal on the spot with Lay on Hands and White Flames, use Invocations to either call summons, damage in an AoE of buff you and your party.

Eternal Endurance's lash also works with invocations and spells. So it will put some additional burn damage to offensive, damaging abilities which is cool for either Arcana Knight or Herald. 

An often overlooked combo imo is Paladin/Stalker. It has very good passive AR and deflection, an additional body (Animal Companion) and very high potential accuracy (+10 from FoD, +10 from Ring of Focused Flames, +10 from Stalker's Link, up to +20 from Hunter's Claw...). Also you can revive and heal your Animal Companion multiple times. The Great Sword Effort fits nicely because its DoT will unlock Predator's Sense.

A Crusader is often labeled boring, but I found if you pick mostly offensive abilities and let the defensive passives plus a few actives just work it's a pretty solid off-tank/damage hybrid than can be fun to play. Damage per hit can be pretty high if you employ Inspired Beacon and all the other little dmg bonuses (Sworn Enemy, FoD, Weapon Spec + Mastery, Two Handed Style and so on - even using the Great Sword modal can make sense if you combine Ring of Focused Flame, Disciplined Strikes and FoD for high ACC strikes). Penetration with Devoted and maybe even Scion of Flame (+1 PEN for FoD) is also nice. Tried some hours with Voidwheel and it was pretty cool.

A weapon option that I wouldn't toss aside and which also looks a bit like a Great Sword is Esrocs, especially Blade of the Endless Paths (if you pick that then there will be no Whispers of the Endless Paths). It not only debuffs enemies' defenses but also lifts you ACC during the fight. This is especially nice with an Arcane Knight because the Essential Phantom (Wizard spell) will also get your items and that way you can stack twice the deflection debuff on an enemy which can be very good against tough boss enemies.

I didnt mean that but it was worth pointing out for clarification. I can see how my comment could be misinterpretted lol.

I thought pointing out the AoE aspect important for the multiclass options I put below. Even if you have slow recovery because of heavy armor, you slap a Gouging Strike in an AoE on a stack of enemies and theyre going to be in pain for the rest of the fight. Not to mention the blinding status effect itself benefiting Rogue and Steel Garrote (apart from being a strong debuff in itself). Mule kick is pretty funny too, sending a crowd of enemies flying with one swing. Could fit the theme of a slow powerful supertank. I actually dont recall the interaction it has with Clear Out, I think that went through patches at one time or another and its throwing me off.

 

Also Nameless: I personally wouldnt go Devoted with an Estoc for the reason you stated. Pierce is way too resisted in my opinion, its infuriating seeing your attacks do 0 damage. You could pick up Monastic Unarmed Training to punch people as a backup, but then you wouldnt be getting the Two Hander bonus. You can of course make it work but it wouldnt be my first (or second) choice. Plus Estocs do lower base damage than Greatswords, their benefit being in their bonus penetration...which you get +2 from Devoted, so your Greatswords will very often be getting that bonus anyway because of its two damage types it can 'choose' from.

Edited February 11, 2022 by Porkchopsandwiches247

[Boeroer]

4 hours ago, NamelessDragon said:

So does the double heal with White Flames actually make *that* much of a difference for dual wield to be much more preferable on a Wayfarer?

Dual wielding with a Kind Wayfarer does twice the healing with FoD compared to a Kind Wayfarer with only one weapon. It's not a big problem, it's just not optimal.

Honestly, if the two-handed fantasy doesn't work out all that well with my choice of Paladin, I'm just willing to switch over entirely to a Devoted Fighter and run something like a Battlemage multi with Wizard, I hear Whispers of the Endless Paths has nice synergy with that kind of build.

 
As I said, Steel Garrote Paladin/Bloodmage would be a superb synergy with Whispers of the Endless Paths.

With a Devoted you can use an Estoc if you accept that a backup weapon will have -10 ACC (not that big of a deal after the early game imo) or if you pick up Monastic Unarmed Training and use your fists against pierce immune foes. Everbody is automatically proficient with fists so a Devoted won't get -10 ACC with them. Pierce resistance (which is just high armor vs. pierce) is not a big problem for a Devoted/Wizard because not only has an Estoc vey high base PEN already an the Devoted adds, but also the Wizard has Expose Vulnerabilities and the Devoted has Penetrating Strike. I don't remember many "resistant" enemies that can withstand that. Pierce immune enemies don't skulk around every corner, but they are more common than most other xyz-immune foes because often skeletons and constructs are immune to pierce. Hence the fallback to fists or a Morning Star for example. 

Kaylon's suggestion with Soulblade is also very nice - also with Whispers of the Endless Paths. Offensive Parry will generate focus while you parry and the cone attack will apply the raw dmg of the Soul Annihilation attacks to all enemies in the cone (the amount of raw dmg will vary between enemies though). Ciphers get Borrowed Instincts at some point which leads to high ACC but also high defenses which stack with Paladin's defensive passives AND singular deflection buffs (for example from a Priest) which is perfect for Offensive Parry.

 

[NamelessDragon]

Alright everyone, thank you so much for all the input! It's given me a bunch to think about and consider.

I think I'm going to experiment, try out a couple of different things separately because there's a lot that does appeal haha. I'll try out the two-handed character as Battlemage Devoted/Wizard. I also currently have a dual-wielding melee Cipher playthrough going on in PoE1, and I'm nearing the end. Having a blast with the Cipher playstyle, and I can see why it would be synergizing really well with a Paladin- I think I'll multiclass that character as an Inquisitor with a Kind Wayfarer Paladin when I import them over, see how it pans out.

 

[Haplok]

On 2/11/2022 at 4:42 PM, Porkchopsandwiches247 said:

Also Nameless: I personally wouldnt go Devoted with an Estoc for the reason you stated. Pierce is way too resisted in my opinion, its infuriating seeing your attacks do 0 damage. You could pick up Monastic Unarmed Training to punch people as a backup, but then you wouldnt be getting the Two Hander bonus. You can of course make it work but it wouldnt be my first (or second) choice. Plus Estocs do lower base damage than Greatswords, their benefit being in their bonus penetration...which you get +2 from Devoted, so your Greatswords will very often be getting that bonus anyway because of its two damage types it can 'choose' from.

I did just fine as a Swashbuckler - Trickster / Devoted to Estocs. In fact, I though it was a very strong melee build.

The "Pierce immunity is common" I consider an Internet meme more then anything. So you have like 5 areas with a bunch of higher level skeletons where this applies (but which you should still easily beat beyond the starter island - either with your fist or another blunt weapon at -10 Accuracy) - with 2 of them strictly optional depending on faction choices AFAIR, plus a handful of generally solitary Lurker enemies that are no threat at all.

Some enemies have higher Armor Rating vs Pierce, true. On the other hand, the Estoc has the highest Penetration value out of all weapons AFAIR. I've never really struggled with Penetrating AR with it, particularly when using rogue active abilities, which often come with a further Pen boost. In fact in a large portion of fights I had the +30% Overpenetration bonus on a large amount of mobs.

Edited February 18, 2022 by Haplok