An analysis of top classes for Solo - Vanilla vs BPM

[Kaylon]

Here are my suggestions if you play without BPM and with the lvl cap increased:

• if you want to feel like a boss from the start to the finish you should try FF/Steel Garrote (be just rational if you don't like to be cruel)
• the ultimate death machine would be FF/assassin (vs solo enemies you have the deadly combo - Grave Calling + Scordeo's Edge with Gambit and Swift Flurry/Heartbeat Drumming)
• if you like casters then BM/troubadour is very strong (but if you don't use the grimoire imprint trick then it requires more strategy)

For a FF to make things go very smooth you should max MIG, RES, PER, min CON and split the rest of points between INT/DEX. Pick pale elf (with resolve bonus) and dagger+medium shield as first weapons and Hylea's Bounty as deity bonus. With both modals activated and wearing the brigandine you can just spam FF (the curse should expire just before the next hit) while having incredible defense and healing from the start (maybe you need to test the build a little if you play with Berath's Blessings).

 

[Lovecraft1986]

Thanks @Shai Hulud, your strategy is the one I imagined when you explained the build but I had forgotten about the club modal which would help a lot ! And, of course, traps might be mandatory to clear out the digsite.
Thanks @Kaylonas well, a votary would be nigh unkillable from the get-go but wouldn't it lack in the accuracy and/or damage output department ? Wouldn't a brawler be slightly less sturdy but more efficient offensively ?

@Shai Huludthe brawler could be a tweaked version of @Not So Clever Hound's evergreen juggernaut build : at Lvl 33 it would be able to kite dorudugan with Frostseeker and use resonant touch to kill him or am I mistaken ?
Although, killing the megabosses isn't a necessity in my mind : I'm a casual player and I'm just looking for a smooth solo experience that still feels challenging. I was just wondering if an ultimate-like experience was possible without food or potion abuse and your transcendant seems to be able to pull it off with some grinding on Maje.

[Shai Hulud]

4 hours ago, Kaylon said:

Here are my suggestions if you play without BPM and with the lvl cap increased:

• if you want to feel like a boss from the start to the finish you should try FF/Steel Garrote (be just rational if you don't like to be cruel)
• the ultimate death machine would be FF/assassin (vs solo enemies you have the deadly combo - Grave Calling + Scordeo's Edge with Gambit and Swift Flurry/Heartbeat Drumming)
• if you like casters then BM/troubadour is very strong (but if you don't use the grimoire imprint trick then it requires more strategy)

Why FF / assassin? I've barely played assassins, but my understanding is you mostly just spam invisibility for assassinate passive then alpha strike? But that doesn't really go with your weapon choice so I'm missing something. Does Grave Bound still proc using FF attacks? Or are you just totally counting on swift flurry and heartbeat drumming with gambit? 

Also I don't think that build makes it out of Port Maje without stealthing. Which is fine, though he wanted something that can combat everything as he goes.

FF / steel garrote is a great build, I've tested it a fair amount at L20 though haven't played through.

BM / troubadour is also interesting, though I kind of hate blood mages in BPM. Grimoire imprinting is extra hard since blood sacrifice is only 50/50 to restore minor grimoire imprint and it kills your heals for 6s. And has a recovery. Also a cool thing about troubadours in BPM is empowers are better and have lasting effects through the rest of combat, but blood mage can't empower, so I kind of prefer wizard / troubadour in BPM, though imprinting is super hard without blood sacrifice. There's potions of enlightenment but you need a lot if you hunt down all the best spells. 

4 hours ago, Kaylon said:

For a FF to make things go very smooth you should max MIG, RES, PER, min CON and split the rest of points between INT/DEX. Pick pale elf (with resolve bonus) and dagger+medium shield as first weapons and Hylea's Bounty as deity bonus. With both modals activated and wearing the brigandine you can just spam FF (the curse should expire just before the next hit) while having incredible defense and healing from the start (maybe you need to test the build a little if you play with Berath's Blessings).

 

Hmm. You must be talking about pure FF build or martials that don't do anything but spam FF with this stat spread?

Min CON makes the game pretty difficult until you hit L10. 3 CON is like 224 HP even with Hylea at L20. If you have all the boons and belt of eoten CON it is 443, which is fine, especially if you have lots of wounds. But I like to use dichotomous souls and instruments of pain. That costs 10 wounds in BPM. Max MIG is nice because you heal more but dawnstar's blessing (and practiced healer when available) makes up for this quite a lot. I guess if you just spam FF and always have 5+ wounds then this spread is good post level 10. Assuming nothing can kill you faster than FF heals you...

Definitely prefer squid's grasp or kapana taga for weapon. Not being flanked is basically +10 all defenses and +1 armor comparitively. 

There are many combinations of stats, armor, modals, items, etc. that work. I suspect this spread will have pretty low attack speed but more important recovery time will be horrible if you try to cast anything like enlightened agony, dichotomous souls, etc. I mean not dual-wielding is +45%, block modal is +25%, brigandine is +55%. I'm guessing this guy attacks like once per 4.5s? Maybe 4s with swift flurry? 

I don't think a transcendent would do well with so much recovery given you want to cast borrowed instinct and psychovampiric shield with some regularity. For a pure FF or martial combination like brawler where you just spam FF I'm sure this is good. I just don't want to confuse @Lovecraft1986

------

Tried this on a SG / FF votary. Attacks 4.2s with all dex boons and swift flurry active. The curse only lasts 1.9s. You really don't need this much resolve if wearing such heavy armor. I'd be tempted to put some more points into CON for early game survivability and drop resolve 5 or 6 points. Our will defense will still be pretty good. I like Lethandria's Devotion here with Sheltering Light. 

I made a script that just casts swift flurry, thunderous blows and spams FF. Between Giftwrapper, Sheltering Light, FF, Elemental Endurance, and SG passive I heal like 2 + 2 + 39 + 8 + 11ish = 62 per round. Pretty nice. Also I can see the appeal of pale elves. Battle takes a long time though, and I ran out of swift flurry pretty fast in the fights I tested, leaving me attacking once per 5.2s. And my other votary can attack over twice as fast, heals significantly more even with less MIG. Also casts Enduring Beacon in some fights for even more damage. Doesn't have the armor, but it seems to be able to handle everything. I do like your suggestions for pure martial FFs.

But it won't work for a transcendent, recovery time is far too much to keep up buffs and debuffs. 

Still this may be an easier build to use, assuming it can handle the megabosses and whatnot, but personally I wouldn't drop CON below 8 if I'm planning to fight things before L10. 

----- (EDIT)---

Dorudugan I think may be impossible with this votary build. I tried for about an hour and couldn't get his health below 3/4. It's strange, Dorudugan's health bar gets to 7/8 pretty quickly but then it just sticks near there if you don't damage him fast enough. You'd think the damage would add up and he'd eventually get to Hurt, so long as you lead him away from the Helfire Barrages so he doesn't heal. 

Yeah what the hell, I gave up eventually and checked the before/after damage dealt and I did OVER 20,000 DAMAGE! And he was hit by like 1% of the helfire fireballs. I wasn't doing any burn damage, was doing 400 to 600 damage per fireball cycle, and no way he healed for even 10% of that on average. I've gotten good at directing the fireballs away from him so he doesn't get healed that way. But still I couldn't touch him. 

Helfire Iron must provide some passive regeneration that isn't shown in the logs... that's the only explanation.

Edited April 17, 2023 by Shai Hulud

[Kaylon]

I never put more than 3 in CON and never regretted it. Hylea's Bounty works like +5CON and with enough self healing and defense you won't need more (and with Berath's Blessing it's even easier).

Since @Lovecraft1986 is playing with the cap increase, adding another class to the FF will make it even stronger and you can still apply the basics of a SC FF. Since he plays also with the community patch the FF attack is considered a melee attack it benefits from health draining/damage add of the steel garrote or the sneak attack/deathblows/deep wounds of the assassin.

Regarding the FF, until you get Clarity of Agony, it's ok to attack a little slower but maximize defense and healing. Once you obtain Clarity of Agony you can start to optimize your build further.

The steel garrote adds the superior defenses and healing which allow you to face tank any boss in the game. You get also some good offensive tricks - Eternal Devotion, Brand Enemy and Sacred Immolation (which can be used almost without drawbacks).

The assassin synergizes perfectly with WotW (all assassinate bonuses are applied, and also backstab, sneak attack, deathblows and deep wounds). VS single enemies you have a great synergy between Gambit (which can be spammed) and Swift Flurry/Heartbeat Drumming. You can either use Mohorā Tanga (if your PC is good enough) or use the combo Grave Calling/Scordeo's Edge and freeze enemies/trigger Blade Cascade (only enemies immune to dex afflictions can't be freezed/paralyzed and against them you can use Stunning Surge).

[Shai Hulud]

32 minutes ago, Kaylon said:

I never put more than 3 in CON and never regretted it. Hylea's Bounty works like +5CON and with enough self healing and defense you won't need more (and with Berath's Blessing it's even easier).

Since @Lovecraft1986 is playing with the cap increase, adding another class to the FF will make it even stronger and you can still apply the basics of a SC FF. Since he plays also with the community patch the FF attack is considered a melee attack it benefits from health draining/damage add of the steel garrote or the sneak attack/deathblows/deep wounds of the assassin.

Regarding the FF, until you get Clarity of Agony, it's ok to attack a little slower but maximize defense and healing. Once you obtain Clarity of Agony you can start to optimize your build further.

The steel garrote adds the superior defenses and healing which allow you to face tank any boss in the game. You get also some good offensive tricks - Eternal Devotion, Brand Enemy and Sacred Immolation (which can be used almost without drawbacks).

The assassin synergizes perfectly with WotW (all assassinate bonuses are applied, and also backstab, sneak attack, deathblows and deep wounds). VS single enemies you have a great synergy between Gambit (which can be spammed) and Swift Flurry/Heartbeat Drumming. You can either use Mohorā Tanga (if your PC is good enough) or use the combo Grave Calling/Scordeo's Edge and freeze enemies/trigger Blade Cascade (only enemies immune to dex afflictions can't be freezed/paralyzed and against them you can use Stunning Surge).

I've been working on builds that can face tank without armor because I've been playing various magran's fires things and armor breaks. Plus you attack faster without it. Some FF builds can do it by attacking very fast, e.g. steel garrote / FF is one, others stack healing sources like ravager stalwart defiance + ff or brute with stalwart defiance + rapid recovery + unbending. Brute can facetank pretty much anything naked and with **** deflection.

I do think your build steel garrote / FF build is very good. Don't think it can beat Dorudugan without gear change. He has to have passive health regen that doesn't show...Might be as simple as putting on effigy's husk, that should nearly double damage output and reduce dorudugan's healing if you script to stay bloodied. 

WOTW costs nine wounds in BPM and you don't start with that many, so I guess you have to use enduring dance, wait, use WOTW, shadowing beyond, wait, repeat? I've played a ton of builds but have mostly stayed away from rogues and druids. Know the rest reasonably well. 

Ha Mohora Tanga is asking for trouble. My PC cost 10k and it still sometimes crashes the game from proccing a hundred plus times. Even when it doesn't the frame rate stutters badly.

I didn't think about grave calling freezing enemies vs paralyzing. So if they're resistant it is downgraded to paralyzed... the description says it paralyzes but I do recall using the sabre and it actually freezing them when I used strand of favor to stack freezes, but I thought it was just a visual distinction at the time. Sounds like an interesting build.

[Lovecraft1986]

Ok @Shai Hulud, the votary is out of the game according to your test. What about the brawler ?

[Kaylon]

7 hours ago, Shai Hulud said:

I've been working on builds that can face tank without armor because I've been playing various magran's fires things and armor breaks. Plus you attack faster without it. Some FF builds can do it by attacking very fast, e.g. steel garrote / FF is one, others stack healing sources like ravager stalwart defiance + ff or brute with stalwart defiance + rapid recovery + unbending. Brute can facetank pretty much anything naked and with **** deflection.

I do think your build steel garrote / FF build is very good. Don't think it can beat Dorudugan without gear change. He has to have passive health regen that doesn't show...Might be as simple as putting on effigy's husk, that should nearly double damage output and reduce dorudugan's healing if you script to stay bloodied. 

WOTW costs nine wounds in BPM and you don't start with that many, so I guess you have to use enduring dance, wait, use WOTW, shadowing beyond, wait, repeat? I've played a ton of builds but have mostly stayed away from rogues and druids. Know the rest reasonably well. 

Ha Mohora Tanga is asking for trouble. My PC cost 10k and it still sometimes crashes the game from proccing a hundred plus times. Even when it doesn't the frame rate stutters badly.

I didn't think about grave calling freezing enemies vs paralyzing. So if they're resistant it is downgraded to paralyzed... the description says it paralyzes but I do recall using the sabre and it actually freezing them when I used strand of favor to stack freezes, but I thought it was just a visual distinction at the time. Sounds like an interesting build.

Don't understand why are you talking about BPM or Magran's fires since @Lovecraft1986 is not using them... My builds are for vanilla game + community patch.

[Shai Hulud]

7 hours ago, Kaylon said:

Don't understand why are you talking about BPM or Magran's fires since @Lovecraft1986 is not using them... My builds are for vanilla game + community patch.

Because this is a thread specifically about soloing BPM vs vanilla? Possibly I assumed he was using BPM (or at least planning to) based on context, possibly incorrectly. But I don't think it's odd to be talking about BPM changes given the thread title (also I missed in your first post where you said those builds weren't for BPM, sorry). 

As for Magran's Fires, admittedly a tangent, I was just giving some perspective why my builds have tended to use different stat distributions and why I haven't played others as much.

For what it's worth this transcendent build is exactly the same in BPM or vanilla, minus dichotomous souls costing slightly more, which I mentioned. 

9 hours ago, Lovecraft1986 said:

Ok @Shai Hulud, the votary is out of the game according to your test. What about the brawler ?

The votary *should* work with the right equipment changes and minor re-spec (effigy's husk robes, rekvu's fractured casque, gauntlets of accuracy, blinky pet, charm of bones, tuotilo's palm, exalted focus, two weapon style), but I've discovered Dorudugan fight is bugged, probably because the way health is restored when clearing a constitution affliction is bugged. Something was bothering me about how with FF monks only super-high DPS builds had any chance of defeating him after I checked my brute build which easily chipped away his health, so I used ToggleCharacterStatsDebug to see what was going on.

In these screenshots this is a before and after of Dorudugan weakened and then recovering. His health goes from 13266.83/16365.65 weakened, to 15429.9/18659.9 unweakened, to 13497.31/16365.65 when weakened again. I grazed for 35.5 damage so his health should be 13231.33. Basically he is healing himself by varying percentage of health (at this stage, 265.98 health) every time he goes from weakened to not weakened. So with FF monks, the only way I can out DPS him seems to be to have high accuracy high DPS builds with decent INT and fast attacks who can keep him weakened enough that this healing effect doesn't proc very often. 

@Elric Galad Do you know anything about this? I suspect it is a general problem with changes to constitution status, which is at its most extreme with Dorudugan because he has so much health so small percentage rounding errors are compounded into meaningful healing. Also his resolve is crazy high so he is only weakened for at most about 5s. I think as you grind down Dorudugan's health the absolute value of health restored becomes smaller, because my experience is if you can get him to 3/4 health you can probably get him to 1/2, and if you can get him to 1/2 you can kill him. The longest stage is always getting him to 3/4. 

This test in screenshots is using BPM, but I reloaded the fight in vanilla and the exact same thing happens. Main difference is he starts with slightly less health, 16824.5, but he is still being healed. Went from 13034.53/14912.63 weakened to 14912.63/16824.5 unweakened, back to 13172.01/14912.63 weakened, after a graze for 46 damage, so he healed 183.48, slightly less than in BPM (probably because lower health pool) but still problematic. 

------------------------

Basically @Lovecraft1986 you are going to have an extremely hard time killing Dorudugan with FF builds, even if you can avoid the helfire barrages healing him. It is a grind even with pure FF or a transcendent, and takes over an hour. This votary I think can still *barely* do it with the changes mentioned, but it took me well over an hour to get him to roughly 3/4 health. And that's avoiding all his helfire barrages from healing him. So...given this fight is bugged for FFs, just stab him from stealth with Lover's Embrace, drink a potion of invisibility, and run away. It's cheesy, but the legitimate method doesn't really work in this case. You can also start the fight with a stealth stab from Lover's Embrace, which adds enough DOT that "three hour fight" might go down to "one hour fight" if you take him on directly. 

I actually like the SG / FF votary build a lot. I haven't tested it in Maje but I think it will work as well as anything for you. Transcendent can clear the game but it is a more complicated build and requires a bit more scripting or else lot of micromanagement. Also it's a little weak before L13 when you get borrowed instinct. If you like casting you could try the transcendent, early game is tough but doable, but I think a votary will be easier for most of the game. Late game a transcendent would be especially interesting IMO once you get shared nightmare (plus time parasite is one of the best buff/debuff in the game), but paladins do get sacred sacrifice for a circle of massive burn damage around you as you kill things, which would be pretty cool.  It also injures you but I think you have plenty of healing. Also Divine Retribution is reworked in BPM so you get some zeal back based on how much health you've lost, so you could probably burn sacred sacrifice constantly. Might even have enough zeal regen to use inspired beacon semi-regularly, which gives a big damage boost and blinds people around you. 

I think a FF / unbroken brawler would have the same problems with Dorudugan, but it might "come online" a bit earlier. Stats are similar with either build, I went 18/3/8/18/10/21. And not that I doubt Kaylon (the early fights could be doable with 3 CON, IDK for sure), but the extra might doesn't make that big a difference in damage or healing compared to like 13/8/8/18/10/21, which could make fights a little easier before Level 10. High level fighters get some okay abilities but the big draw is toughened fury which gives back discipline as damaged and would allow you to keep up your buffs in longer fights, or use abilities like mule kick / clear out. 

Edited April 18, 2023 by Shai Hulud

[Kaylon]

Any type of monk can kill Dorudugan, but not with (just) melee damage. The idea is to stack enough resonance stacks then blow him up.  The easiest way to kill him with any type of monk is to use Enduring Dance to generate wounds, summon the Dichotomous Soul to keep him busy and use Essence Interrupter or Frostseeker to damage/build stacks of resonance on him. (Of course you need specific equipment for this encounter in any case). 

The votary can also facetank him using FF and eventually blow him up but, if the health bug is also present in the vanilla version, it's better to use the "classic" way to kill him.

The assassin/FF can also use the "classic" way to kill Dorudugan. The other possibility is to use Vanishing Strike and then Gambit with Mohora Tanga in the main hand while invisible, (but probably less reliable).

PS. A FF/troubadour would have the easiest way to kill Dorudugan of any class. 

[Lovecraft1986]

@Kaylonwhy would the FF/troubadour have the easiest way ? Would it be because of longer summons and sure handed hylea chant ?

Your builds all seem great guys, now I don't know which one to pick !

But I think I'm leaning towards the transcendant because I love them but always play them ranged and never tried it melee.

[Shai Hulud]

 

45 minutes ago, Kaylon said:

Any type of monk can kill Dorudugan, but not with (just) melee damage. The idea is to stack enough resonance stacks then blow him up.  The easiest way to kill him with any type of monk is to use Enduring Dance to generate wounds, summon the Dichotomous Soul to keep him busy and use Essence Interrupter or Frostseeker to damage/build stacks of resonance on him. (Of course you need specific equipment for this encounter in any case). 

The votary can also facetank him using FF and eventually blow him up but, if the health bug is also present in the vanilla version, it's better to use the "classic" way to kill him.

Some monks can kill him with just melee damage (definitely pure FF due to more accuracy), though it is a long grind because of the bugged healing...my method with the transcendent is using dichotomous souls, instruments of pain, and soul annihilation, which fulfills a similar burst damage role to Resonances. I keep forgetting he'll reach L33. Yes, in that case, it is probably doable with any multiclass monk once he gets resonance touch, just takes tens of thousands more damage to kill Dorudugan than it should. 

The health bug is indeed present in the vanilla game. Sadly. Dorudugan heals for nearly 200 every time he goes from weakened to not weakened, so the less you can sustain weakened over multiple attacks the faster he heals. So there's three ways around that with FF monks, attack with things besides your FF attack (like bows you mentioned), be able to maintain weakened longer so he heals less, or otherwise out-DPS his healing somehow. Other classes can chip away at his health and it may take a while but it goes steadily down, he only heals from the helfire barrages and helstorms. And the helfire barrages can be completely avoided with some practice, though Helstorms cannot.

I even tried that fight staying bloodied with Effigy's Husk because I thought he had some kind of passive healing going on, and Effigy's Husk does greatly reduce healing from helfire barrage and helstorms but it doesn't do anything about the healing he gets from going weakened to unweakened. Because technically that isn't healing, it's probably some kind of rounding error compounded by his giant health pool.

45 minutes ago, Kaylon said:

The assassin/FF can also use the "classic" way to kill Dorudugan. The other possibility is to use Vanishing Strike and then Gambit with Mohora Tanga in the main hand while invisible, (but probably less reliable).

Good old cheese.

45 minutes ago, Kaylon said:

PS. A FF/troubadour would have the easiest way to kill Dorudugan of any class. 

Hmm why is that? Chant "many lives pass by" while pelting him with shock arrows and detonating resonances? Dunno where the FF part comes in. This also works with troubadour / anything really. I made a simple script to send out instruments of pain and just fast mode afk killed him with essence interrupter with hunting bow modal. Completely ignored the helfire (was wearing rekvu's scorched cloak though so I wouldn't die). I've made lots of builds that can kill him fairly easily (and legitimately). The ones that can't tend to have very bad healing / bad defenses and limited / no summons. I generally find Hauani O Whe more problematic but Dorudugan is a close second. Though not being able to figure Doru fight out with the troubadour/psion bugs me. It's mostly because the way I built the character it was a glass cannon, and the summons have a hard time redirecting the helfire barrages so Doru heals too fast to keep up with the pain link damage (which is also bugged). It's probably possible if I switched the stats up and just gave him essence interrupter...

4 minutes ago, Lovecraft1986 said:

@Kaylonwhy would the FF/troubadour have the easiest way ? Would it be because of longer summons and sure handed hylea chant ?

Your builds all seem great guys, now I don't know which one to pick !

But I think I'm leaning towards the transcendant because I love them but always play them ranged and never tried it melee.

I really like soul blades too but the votary is pretty damn good. I tested it in Port Maje and with the right gear (like amulet of greater health, hylea's bounty, girdle of mortal protection) the 3 CON is manageable, though at this point you don't have enough armor for brigandine to be worth it, the tougher enemies like the skeletons at the digsite will always penetrate, so I had more success wearing robes and attacking fast. Lay on Hands is very helpful. Still had to do a little kiting to separate the largest groups. Could take on about 3 skeleton fighter / archer / sorcerers at once without dying. With transcendent at L6 it's probably 2 to 3 also, have much less healing but can treason things and paralyze/immobilize. 

You can reach L10 by the end of deadlight or maybe early neketaka and monk builds get quite a bit tankier at that point so Maje is one of the more difficult parts if you want to kill everything. Even L7 helps a lot with transcendent, since you can dominate things and attack them without them turning on you...

[Kaylon]

26 minutes ago, Lovecraft1986 said:

@Kaylonwhy would the FF/troubadour have the easiest way ?

It's because the troubadour, using Brisk Recitation and Many Lives... has the easiest time to keep Dorudugan away, while shooting him with a bow. (you summon skeletons faster than Dorudugan can kill them). While any MC troubadour can use the same tactic, only monks have Resonant Touch which makes things much faster.

Edited April 18, 2023 by Kaylon

[Lovecraft1986]

Ok thanks @Kaylon!
You make a great case for the votary and the howler, especially because they would wreck everything from the get-go through amazing defense for the votary and early summons for the howler...

[Elric Galad]

1 hour ago, Shai Hulud said:

The health bug is indeed present in the vanilla game. Sadly. Dorudugan heals for nearly 200 every time he goes from weakened to not weakened, so the less you can sustain weakened over multiple attacks the faster he heals. So there's three ways around that with FF monks, attack with things besides your FF attack (like bows you mentioned), be able to maintain weakened longer so he heals less, or otherwise out-DPS his healing somehow. Other classes can chip away at his health and it may take a while but it goes steadily down, he only heals from the helfire barrages and helstorms. And the helfire barrages can be completely avoided with some practice, though Helstorms cannot.

I even tried that fight staying bloodied with Effigy's Husk because I thought he had some kind of passive healing going on, and Effigy's Husk does greatly reduce healing from helfire barrage and helstorms but it doesn't do anything about the healing he gets from going weakened to unweakened. Because technically that isn't healing, it's probably some kind of rounding error compounded by his giant health pool.

I'm more or less aware of this. There are indeed strange rules that apply to current health while max health is changed (mostly through CON buff).

There was even a thread about it (started by @thelee if I remember well), but I wasn't able to find and necro it. The topic was more about CON Inspiration though.

In general it isn't gamechanging, but in case of Megabosses, well, it is. And yeah, it's hardcoded.

Gotta love this BPM SC Ranger permanent CON Debuff I guess. 

[Shai Hulud]

1 minute ago, Elric Galad said:

I'm more or less aware of this. There are indeed strange rules that apply to current health while max health is changed (mostly through CON buff).

There was even a thread about it (started by @thelee if I remember well), but I wasn't able to find and necro it. The topic was more about CON Inspiration though.

In general it isn't gamechanging, but in case of Megabosses, well, it is. And yeah, it's hardcoded.

Gotta love this BPM SC Ranger permanent CON Debuff I guess. 

Just that megaboss, I think. Most don't heal that much, or even if they do they don't have 50 resolve so maintaining enfeebled or weakened is far easier. When it only sticks for 4 or 5 seconds you have to hit nearly every time or he will "heal" too fast when you miss the roll v fortitude. 

Honestly for FF builds Dorudugan would be easier if he were outright immune to constitution effects. The helfire barrages are easy enough to avoid, and effigy's husk can reduce the rest of his legit healing, but as for these mysterious current health to max health overcorrections, I've fought him with FFs before where he "healed" for like 80,000 damage...

Yeah BPM ranger is pretty good in this fight. Though the main thing is the buffs to pet healing, shadowed hunters, and potions of enlightenment, in vanilla you run out of resources and get murdered at some point, usually shortly after your pet gets murdered or you run out of ghost heart summons. Heart Seeker debuff is just gravy. 

[thelee]

5 hours ago, Elric Galad said:

There was even a thread about it (started by @thelee if I remember well), but I wasn't able to find and necro it. The topic was more about CON Inspiration though.

In general it isn't gamechanging, but in case of Megabosses, well, it is. And yeah, it's hardcoded.

CON inspiration and CON affliction are both just two sides of the same coin. But that thread was specifically about how those conspire with effects that add a set amount of health (mainly those amulets that grant +health), and how the game doesn't handle the math right. I actually don't remember which way the interaction goes, it's pretty obscure (but had an application in letting you infinitely restore health in e.g. woedica's challenge).

 

But the Dorudugan thing shouldn't be the same thing here, I doubt he/she/it has a specific health buff. Given the closely-aligned numbers involved in Shai Hulud's post outside BPM (87.4% of health to 88.7% of health, back down to 88.3% of health), I half suspect maybe it's some funky rounding with the difficulty health boost (which, thanks to this thread I now realize is a multiplicative bonus on the enemy's total health), which we only really notice here because of the massive numbers involved with dorudugan's health pool.

 

edit: i speculate that it has something to do with the difficulty adjustment mostly because back in that thread i think Boeroer had specific numbers and MaxQuest had an equation that matched the game to a T, so I don't think CON adjustments alone causes the health healing weirdness.

edit 2: also want to underline that this concern is probably mostly for solo, since if you have reasonable uptime and reasonable party DPS, even with dorudugan healing some tiny % of health every time the CON effect wears off, it'll get overwhelmed by what is a 12.8% multiplicative party damage bonus against it by virtue of good uptime on the con affliction.

Edited April 18, 2023 by thelee

[Shai Hulud]

On 4/18/2023 at 11:20 AM, thelee said:

edit 2: also want to underline that this concern is probably mostly for solo, since if you have reasonable uptime and reasonable party DPS, even with dorudugan healing some tiny % of health every time the CON effect wears off, it'll get overwhelmed by what is a 12.8% multiplicative party damage bonus against it by virtue of good uptime on the con affliction.

How do you calculate a 12.8% multiplicative damage boost? Maybe I don't understand CON afflictions but doesn't weakened just lower his max health (temporarily), lower fortitude by 10 and half his self-healing? I don't get why attacks would do more damage. I mean I guess attacks that target fortitude will hit more, and he won't heal as much, but since 12.8% is very specific I'm assuming you had something else in mind. 

[thelee]

5 hours ago, Shai Hulud said:

How do you calculate a 12.8% multiplicative damage boost? Maybe I don't understand CON afflictions but doesn't weakened just lower his max health (temporarily), lower fortitude by 10 and half his self-healing? I don't get why attacks would do more damage. I mean I guess attacks that target fortitude will hit more, and he won't heal as much, but since 12.8% is very specific I'm assuming you had something else in mind. 

two reasons, both related: one - the game tries to preserve the current % of health whenever max health is adjusted (e.g. from CON changing up and down from afflictions and inspirations). two - more intuitively, if you somehow permanently reduce an enemy's CON, then you objectively need to do less damage to kill it. effectively, you've given yourself a damage boost.

an extreme example is if you somehow reduced an enemy's health from 1000 to 200. You only need to do 200 damage to kill it. You've effectively 5x-ed your damage, because you effectively did 1000 damage compared to before the health reduction. the first point I mentioned above is relevant because this would all be for nothing if, when a con adjustment wears off, the enemy gains back the entirety of the missing health. instead, the game continues to try to preserve the relative share of health. So if you somehow reduced an enemy's health from 1000 to 200, but only managed 100, when the con effect wears off, the game puts the enemy's current health back to 500 health (goes from 100/200 to 500/1000), not 900 (i.e. 100/200 and then +800 current health when their max health goes back to 1000).

the specific 12.8% multiplicative damage bonus number was derived from the specific numbers you shared from dorudugan's health pool above (vanilla numbers).

 

edit: like i said and you've noticed, there's some weirdness going on with dorudugan's numbers specifically for some unknown reason. but for more reasonable fights (even against enemies with ~1000+ health), any error should be overwhelmed by the general advantage of doing more damage (a ~1% difference in current health only becomes noticable at dorudugan's massive ~16000 hp health pool), and the effect is more powerful the lower the enemy's starting CON is.

Edited April 20, 2023 by thelee

[Pharaoh]

On 4/17/2023 at 8:11 AM, Kaylon said:

Here are my suggestions if you play without BPM and with the lvl cap increased:

• if you want to feel like a boss from the start to the finish you should try FF/Steel Garrote (be just rational if you don't like to be cruel)
• the ultimate death machine would be FF/assassin (vs solo enemies you have the deadly combo - Grave Calling + Scordeo's Edge with Gambit and Swift Flurry/Heartbeat Drumming)
• if you like casters then BM/troubadour is very strong (but if you don't use the grimoire imprint trick then it requires more strategy)

For a FF to make things go very smooth you should max MIG, RES, PER, min CON and split the rest of points between INT/DEX. Pick pale elf (with resolve bonus) and dagger+medium shield as first weapons and Hylea's Bounty as deity bonus. With both modals activated and wearing the brigandine you can just spam FF (the curse should expire just before the next hit) while having incredible defense and healing from the start (maybe you need to test the build a little if you play with Berath's Blessings).

 

What about pure FF with the level cap increased?

Is picking a multiclass worth losing the extra fists scaling?

You can reach absurd levels of fists scaling as a pure monk without level cap.

Also why don't people recommend nature godlike which gives +1 powerlevel?

[Lovecraft1986]

I ended up with FF/Soul Blade and it absolutely wrecked everything.

I think that a SC FF would not be far behind because you get Duality of mortal presence sooner but I don't think SC FF can clean out the digsite without cheese and/or consumables. Early access to Blind (eyestrike) and Charm (whisper of treason) makes it possible so I think FF/Soul Blade is superior.

Edit : Nature Godlike is a strong choice but Death Runes (early) and Cap of Laughingstock (after Maje) is a huge bonus. Especially with a Transcendent to help land debuffs.

Edited June 4, 2023 by Lovecraft1986

[Shai Hulud]

9 hours ago, Lovecraft1986 said:

I ended up with FF/Soul Blade and it absolutely wrecked everything.

I think that a SC FF would not be far behind because you get Duality of mortal presence sooner but I don't think SC FF can clean out the digsite without cheese and/or consumables. Early access to Blind (eyestrike) and Charm (whisper of treason) makes it possible so I think FF/Soul Blade is superior.

Edit : Nature Godlike is a strong choice but Death Runes (early) and Cap of Laughingstock (after Maje) is a huge bonus. Especially with a Transcendent to help land debuffs.

FF/Soul blade is one of my favorite builds. Can solo the game without cheese. Would be able to do the ultimate challenge if FF worked correctly without community patch. 

[Kaylon]

14 hours ago, Pharaoh said:

What about pure FF with the level cap increased?

Is picking a multiclass worth losing the extra fists scaling?

You can reach absurd levels of fists scaling as a pure monk without level cap.

Also why don't people recommend nature godlike which gives +1 powerlevel?

Going SC FF won't add more power because the benefits you get from extra PL are far inferior to the benefits from a second class.

The enchantments on the best weapons and their synergies are simply superior to the fists.

The bonuses you get from 1PL are not worth losing the benefits you can get from head gear. The +1PL is more suitable to casters, martial classes get little benefit from it...

[Shai Hulud]

2 hours ago, Kaylon said:

Going SC FF won't add more power because the benefits you get from extra PL are far inferior to the benefits from a second class.

The enchantments on the best weapons and their synergies are simply superior to the fists.

The bonuses you get from 1PL are not worth losing the benefits you can get from head gear. The +1PL is more suitable to casters, martial classes get little benefit from it...

Assume you're talking about FF / SG. What weapons would you use here? I only used weapons for bonuses, like kapana taga, squid's grasp, or daggers with modal. Spamming forbidden fist seems a lot better than using weapons since you gain wounds and health, it enfeebles, and it does more damage than normal weapons given huge bonuses from transcendent suffering and forbidden curse. 

Or did you mean FF / assassin? And in that case how do you gain wounds with grave's calling + scordeo's edge? 

Edited June 5, 2023 by Shai Hulud

[Kaylon]

2 hours ago, Shai Hulud said:

Assume you're talking about FF / SG. What weapons would you use here? I only used weapons for bonuses, like kapana taga, squid's grasp, or daggers with modal. Spamming forbidden fist seems a lot better than using weapons since you gain wounds and health, it enfeebles, and it does more damage than normal weapons given huge bonuses from transcendent suffering and forbidden curse. 

Or did you mean FF / assassin? And in that case how do you gain wounds with grave's calling + scordeo's edge? 

As a max level monk, against multiple enemies, you will use WotW and the best weapon combo is Keeper of the Flame + Hand Mortar. Against single enemies it depends on their defenses - if you can crit easily then Mohora Tanga. Against very strong solo enemies you can spam FF but often is preferable to stay at range with a multi hit weapon and let the Dichotomus Soul do the tanking. During WotW you generate wounds with the help of Imagined Pain, at melee with FF curse and at range with Dance of Death.

[Lovecraft1986]

When the build gets access to Wotw, i liked to wield Sungrazer (for aoe burn on crit kill) and Kapana Taga or Squids Grasp for sturdiness.

I also used Grave Calling against vessels and stalking cloak for stuns with WOTW but the game gets so easy at that point that any weapon would work. Stalking cloak is mandatory for ooze megaboss imo.

@Kaylonhow do you get hand mortar in solo game ? Serafen just disapeared and was only talkable on the boat with solo mode on.