Review - Ydwin as a Beguiler/Trickster Mindstalker

[crdvis16]

Note: I had the community patch and balance polish mod installed (in case that affects some of the interactions of abilities)

Ydwin's subclass options were modded to play this build.  I think perhaps I was missing something to this combination.  I've read before that it works well but I have a hard time understanding the synergy.

The Beguiler side seems pretty straightforward to me- you just cast tons of Deception debuffs and get more and more focus from doing so.  You can then dump your focus on some high cost spells as needed.  You hardly have to use your physical weapons to generate focus because the return from Deception spells is often really good on packs of enemies.

The Trickster side gets you some free spells and access to Rogue abilities in general.  However, many of the Rogue abilities are physical attacks that you probably don't necessarily want to use in lieu of dishing out more Deception spells.  Some of the Trickster auto-granted spells are nice defensive spells that can get you out of a jam if you catch aggro.  However- if I was really interested in adding some defense from a multiclass I would probably go another route I would think?  Also, there is counter synergy involved- the Trickster subclass does less Sneak Attack damage which is almost always going to be activated with all the Beguiler debuffs.

In the end, I was often left thinking that I would have been better off as a SC Beguiler but maybe that's just because SC Beguiler seems really strong?  I'd often go entire encounters never using active abilities from the Trickster/Rogue side of the build at all.  Occasionally, Mirror Image or Escape would help me get out of a jam but I'm not sure it was worth missing out on higher level Cipher spells as a SC.  Typically I'm at pretty far range casting Deception spells and out of danger.

Maybe I needed to do some more research on this build to understand the trick to it?

[MaxQuest]

1 hour ago, crdvis16 said:

Also, there is counter synergy involved- the Trickster subclass does less Sneak Attack damage which is almost always going to be activated with all the Beguiler debuffs.

Yeah, that one. And there are three more:

• Devastating Blow is amazing for building focus. If you use guile for Trickster spells, then you are going to benefit less from that
• While you are casting Trickster spells, your cipher side is idling and doing nothing

 

Meanwhile SC Beguiler has a nice synergy between Shared Nightmare (+1% AoE per Focus) and Beguiler passive itself and also AoE/Cone weapons.

Also I would expect a good tandem between ranged SC Beguiler and melee Trickster/Tactician. Ryngrim's Repulsive Visage + Phantom Foes is a nice combo.

 

[Exanos]

Well, the trickster side bring things than beguiler didn't have : some "ho ****" button (escape, invisibility) and an aoe t3 res affliction. In a good party setup and wise battle engagement you won't need the ho **** button. Beguiler don't need damage cause you have plenty focus and disintegration is good enough (and if in a party, keeping the ennemy from doing anything while you teammate hack them is more important for me). You will also be limited in talent, and cipher got so much fun ones....

If going solo or with limited party member, or planning a riposte build, then it's another story and trickster/beguiler can shine very well.

If you want a debuffer, I honestly prefer sc beguiler or a psion/chanter or psion/bloodmage.

[crdvis16]

Yeah- I guess my issue with it was that most of the time I didn't need those emergency spells.  So on the rare occasion that I would need them I could have just used that escape cape or the boots that give leap or something.  Access to the Ryngrim terrify spell is nice but most of the time no enemies were near enough to get hit by it and if they were I could charm/dominate which is probably better anyway.

I do want to try a riposte tank in my next playthrough so Trickster might very well be useful for that. 

[NotDumbEnough]

I think you are underrating Ryngrim's; it's just barely balanced on Wizards as they don't really want to be in melee, but on melee Tricksters you can sail through 80% of the game with a cheap, spammable and persistent hard CC on all nearby targets. Pulsing effects like Repulsive Visage are also inherently better than one-off rolls, because it's simply much more likely that you'll land a hit eventually even against the toughest enemies. See how Tekehu's Chill Fog is infinitely better than a Cipher's Eyestrike.

Another interesting thing about it is that it rolls against Fortitude rather than Will, which is not very common for Resolve afflictions. e.g. Sigilmaster Auranic has zero resistance against resolve afflictions, but has high will. With Ryngrim's Repulsive Visage, however, you can potentially terrify her.

[crdvis16]

Maybe that's the issue.  I played Ydwin ranged so things like Rymgrin and her deflection buffs were not often used.

I do love both the Rymgrin spells, though.  Aloth was a battlemage tank that used them to terrify and cause disengagement. 

Though even with a melee Trickster, any time spent casting Trickster spells is time not being a Beguiler.  So that still begs the question for why Beguiler/Trickster works as a multiclass.

[Haplok]

For sure, there'd more synergy with other Cipher subclasses. Trickster would pair particularly well with Soulblade for example. But would be a solid, if unspectacular, match for Ascendant also.

Edited November 15, 2021 by Haplok

[dgray62]

I agree, Soulblade is best melee cipher builds, and there's a nice synergy with rogue since Soul Annihilation benefits from sneak attack/death blows. Assassin is also great; with backstab and the assassinate bonus your Soul Annihilation attacks will live up to their name, and one shot pretty much any foe aside from bosses. Also, if you use Whispers of the Endless Paths the once/encounter ability Run Through is devastating when used from stealth/invisibility.