Questions for a Druid

[StabbyMcGoodstab]

I'm going to apologize right now because I overthink things a lot and these questions are going to sound dumb and obsessive, because they are.

I'm thinking of making a druid from the White that Wends who is a nihilistic asocial hermit who's not a big fan of the gods.

1. I like the Lifegiver subclass, but I don't see how that fits with the asocial nihilistic hermit concept - maybe more a Shifter or an Ancient. Is a druid's healing still good without being a Lifegiver? Or is there a way for a Lifegiver to make sense?
2. Does the Mystic background imply that the character has a favourable view of the gods? Might have to go to some backup idea otherwise.
3. Are the druid's summons any good? I remember finding a thread about all the summon details but my brain is too fried to make heads or tails of it.
4. Am I dumb if I make a Shifter who is mainly a spellcaster and only shifts when there's no good spells?
5. Is Charm Animal or Hold Animal worth a spell slot?
6. Is Rot Skulls still good?

My 30 hours in the game consist entirely of screwing around in the character creator and maybe clearing the first cave. Option paralysis is real.

Edited October 29, 2021 by StabbyMcGoodstab
Adding a question

[Not So Clever Hound]

IMO, you're mostly talking to people who check this videogame forum several times a day to discuss the most intricate mechanic/synergy/exploit/oddity or whatever. So no need to apologize for having very specific questions and deeply caring about those aspects of the game. That's why we're here for the most part .

How I'd answer your questions:

1. Druid healing can be great, Lifegiver or not - obviously not Fury though  
2. I think Mystic in the game is more about being curious than religious. You've never been able to explain how the universe guides your path. Behind every task you undertake is a feeling of cosmic direction.
3. The Druid has several good summons, the Ancient has the Sporelings with Wild Growth - nice early game. The oozes of Call of the Primordials are really good late game especially when you randomly get one with infinite Plague of Insects.
4. That is not dumb. Shifter is fun. Shifter is life. Assume you play in a party?
5. Yes especially early game. I won't spoil any further.
6. It is but a shadow of its former self. And a lot of enemies are immune to its Disease keyword.

Edited October 29, 2021 by Not So Clever Hound

[dgray62]

To follow up on question 4, shifter is a lot of fun IMO. Shifter gets some great damage over time (DoT) spells for free, which is great because they are among the druid's best offensive spells. You can cast a few of those, and then shift and wreak melee mayhem as your spells weaken your foes. Shifter is particularly good for multi classing with melee classes such as rogue (trickster or street fighter), barbarian, monk or paladin. If you want to go with SC you're probably best off with an ancient or fury.

[Boeroer]

5 hours ago, StabbyMcGoodstab said:

1. I like the Lifegiver subclass, but I don't see how that fits with the asocial nihilistic hermit concept - maybe more a Shifter or an Ancient. Is a druid's healing still good without being a Lifegiver? Or is there a way for a Lifegiver to make sense?
2. Does the Mystic background imply that the character has a favourable view of the gods? Might have to go to some backup idea otherwise.
3. Are the druid's summons any good? I remember finding a thread about all the summon details but my brain is too fried to make heads or tails of it.
4. Am I dumb if I make a Shifter who is mainly a spellcaster and only shifts when there's no good spells?
5. Is Charm Animal or Hold Animal worth a spell slot?
6. Is Rot Skulls still good?

1. Sounds like an Ancient.
2. Mystic doesn't necessarily imply a favourable view of the gods.
3. Some are very good (for example Call to the Primordials), others are bad (for example Aspect of Galawain). The Blights are so/so. In certain situations they can be very useful - for example when you are fighting foes who mainly deal damage which the current blight is immune to (immortal tank then as long as it lasts). But it's like roulette. I personally never use them. Ancient's Sporelings are very good, especially in the early game. Fire Stag is generally bad, but it can be abused with the help of a Priest or Shieldbearer Paladin: if you use Barring Death's Door on the Fire Stag you can "explode" it over and over again without it dying which is like casting a lot of Fireballs for free. This trick makes it useful but not overly powerful imo.
4. No. Shifters get the best bonus spell selection if you want to make a caster that's focused on "Decay". There is no drawback to your casting as long as you don't shift, so it's not dumb at all. If nothing else you can use the shifting/unshifting as healing tool.
5. In certain encounters both can be very good. In others they are of zero use. My recommendation would be to take one of them or both until the mid game and later retrain (if you have the feeling you are not using them).
6. It's worse than in PoE (where it was really good) but still okay. But not impactful enough to build a character concept around imo.  

[StabbyMcGoodstab]

I appreciate the input.

I'm sad the summons don't seem to be that great. Oozes and Sporelings are nice but that's quite a few wasted spell slots.

Lifegiver seems too much like the "correct" subclass. Its bonuses are so strong - gives all utility spells, and removes access to some mediocre spells, so remaining spell selection seems very straightforward. It really just seems like the other subclasses' bonuses aren't equal.

[thelee]

42 minutes ago, StabbyMcGoodstab said:

Lifegiver seems too much like the "correct" subclass. Its bonuses are so strong - gives all utility spells, and removes access to some mediocre spells, so remaining spell selection seems very straightforward. It really just seems like the other subclasses' bonuses aren't equal.

yeah, for general purpose druid-ing, lifegiver is a pretty safe and strong choice, but i wouldn't go so far as to call it the "correct" choice. everyone but fury also function pretty well as an all-purpose good druid selection, their respective downsides are pretty narrow too. 

 

[Boeroer]

Note that Lifegivers, while getting +5 PL for rejuvenation spells while shifted, also lose that bonus after shifting and then even suffer -5 PL for those spells. It's not like

Before: 5, while shifted 10, after shift 5

more like 5, 10, 0.

So you have to make the right decision when to shift. 

The Powel Level malus will apply to all rejuvenation spell which are still running once you shift back to kith form. For example a Moonwell that is still active while you shift back will instantly lose some of its healing power (its healing ticks will be lower). 

Lifegivers get +2 to rejuvenation as fixed bonus to begin with though, so the -5 PL end up being "real" -3 compared to the other druid subclasses though. So it's not too bad even if you mess up the timing with your spiritshift.

5 hours ago, StabbyMcGoodstab said:

I'm sad the summons don't seem to be that great. Oozes and Sporelings are nice but that's quite a few wasted spell slots.

Maybe the assessment of the summons came over wrongly. Generally speaking summons are always very impactful. Even the bad ones often have more impact than a different spell that is considered to be great with what it is supposed to do. 

Summons need no stats and power level, they just scale with char level. And you are putting an additional body on the field - it is working as a "walking crowd control effect" at least, just by being there. Like adding a sixth party member that takes hits. When comparing it to other spell effects, it's a bit like casting a spell that prevents damage or getting hit by afflictions. And that's the least it can do. Some can even do good damage or CC by themselves. That's why summons are always, by design, very good compared to most other spells. You need no accuracy, no might, no nothing butbm INT to produce a long lasting effect that gives protection and sometimes even offense. You will need less healing, less countermeasures to afflictions etc. when summons are on the field. 

So, any summon spell you take is never wasted imo.

Now, there are summon spells that are (way) better than others. Because they not only take away attention from your party but can truly deliver more to combat. Sporelings and Primordials are such summons. They are very good - compared to other summoning spells the druid has. 

If you don't want to use "bad" summons - while bad just means they are worse than some other summons, not that they are bad compared to all other spells - I can understand that. Summons - at least to me - are a pretty unfun concept. They add micromanagement and can make you feel that the star of the show is not your char but his critters. Also it sometimes gets pretty crowded. So I make sure that if I use summons they better be especially cool or effective summons that are more fun to use than the standard minor blight decoy. 

But as a rule of thumb: you will never waste a spell with a summon when it's about efficiency of spell uses imo. 

Edited October 30, 2021 by Boeroer

[StabbyMcGoodstab]

Thanks again for the input everyone.

So I'm getting the impression things aren't as extreme as I was originally thinking. I'm leaning a bit towards Shifter, but still not sure. I'm replaying PoE1 soon so I think I'll pay closer attention to how I play since I don't remember shifting much after the early game. Maybe Ancient or Lifegiver just fit my playstyle better anyway.

Now, on to inane questions.

1. Which healing spells are worth picking if I'm not a Lifegiver? Some tiers have a LOT of good competing spells. Moon's Light, Moonwell, Regenerate and Pollen Patch seem awesome, but are Cleansing Wind, Nature's Bounty, Garden of Life and Nature's Balm good in the long run?
2. Is Lashing Vine just too redundant with Call to the Primordials?
3. I feel like I should have more than one summon spell other than Oozes. Greater Blight, Fire Stag, or Aspect of Galawain?
4. Are Returning and Relentless Storm almost mandatory like they were in PoE1?
5. Unrelated to this, but is a Clergy background for a Priest redundant in terms of interactions?

I spend more time thinking about playing than actually playing

Edited October 30, 2021 by StabbyMcGoodstab

[NotDumbEnough]

How good the healing spells are really depends on how much you lean into them. The thing about healing over time like Moon's Light, Moonwell, Nature's Balm etc. is that they scale quadratically, with Might, Intellect, and twice by Power Level. A high Might and Intellect Lifegiver multiclassed with a Chanter and singing the +healing chant can get upwards of 300 healing out of a single cast of Moon's Light or Nature's Balm. The same goes for Moonwell, though it is also very powerful in that it scales doubly with intellect as well (scales both AOE duration and effect duration), and it is a constantly refreshing buffer against fire attacks due to keyword interactions. e.g. you can have a Wizard toss a Fireball into your own team with little consequence, as it only eats up the Moonwell buff which gets re-applied a few seconds later.

(I suspect Moonwell is therefore extremely good against Dorudugan -- no matter how much damage his explosions do, they should get blocked by Moonwell. But I haven't tested it yet)

Edited October 30, 2021 by NotDumbEnough

[thelee]

10 hours ago, StabbyMcGoodstab said:

I'm replaying PoE1 soon so I think I'll pay closer attention to how I play since I don't remember shifting much after the early game.

shifting is much better in deadfire IMO.

even if you don't shift much you can just pick cat form for its massive action speed boost. even on my shifting-light druid builds, i'd be using cat form all the way into endgame.

with my shifter SC now and actually focusing on shifting, even given action economy constraints of shifting-with-no-casting, shifting is still extremely an effective tool in the druid toolkit. shifter boar form in particular can do a ton of damage on high-health enemies due to a bug in your favor (the shifter boar form's raw dot has a hugely long duration, letting you get high raw damage stack counts).

[Boeroer]

The thing in PoE that was better about shifting was that the natural weapons scaled their base damage with level which lead to really high numbers per hit at some point. In combination with Avenging Storm that lead to the highest melee damage output in the game against single targets, even higher than Rogue's.

In Deadfire that's not the case anymore. Single class Druid doesn't do the amount of shifted melee dmg as in PoE. But instead you have multiclassing which can produce very good results when combining Spiritshift with some other cool abilities of other classes. One example I particularly like: Goldpact Knight + Bear Spiritshift gives you an absurd amount of armor while not slowing you down at all. Meanwhile Flames of Devotion in combination with Wild Strike and also Nature's Terror + Sacred Immolation (use Lay on Hands and Nature's Bounty on yourself to not die) are great tools for dealing damage in melee range. Very fun and rounded combo imo. Just an example though.  

[masterty66]

What exactly is the action economy like on a Shifter? I'm thinking of doing a Stalker/Shifter but I'm not sure how often I should be casting spells vs how often I should be just shifting and shredding things in melee.

Is it just situational or should a Shifter normally be in form and doing things there and only use the occasional spell?

[thelee]

2 hours ago, masterty66 said:

What exactly is the action economy like on a Shifter? I'm thinking of doing a Stalker/Shifter but I'm not sure how often I should be casting spells vs how often I should be just shifting and shredding things in melee.

Is it just situational or should a Shifter normally be in form and doing things there and only use the occasional spell?

my personal playstyle - early on i just dump spells until i run out (except maybe keep a heal in reserve) and then just shift-melee the rest of the fight. potd fights early on are long enough that this works. not much action economy at this stage. not sure if it's optimal, but the times i've done shfiters like this they've been party damage kings.

mid to end game where i have a lot more spells, it basically depends on how many enemies and how effective nature's terror would be. Nature's Terror makes getting up close and personal to enemies really worth it as a shifter, so i'll aggressively shift and leave other spell casting behind if I think I can get good mileage out of a couple casts of the spell. If there's not a lot of enemies and/or they're spread out, i'll still shift because my one-on-one with shifting would be extremely effective still (but maybe i won't bother with nature's terror). If there's a bunch of spread out enemies or it's too dangerous to leap into the middle of things, I stay back and become more of a spell caster until i run out of spells and shift anyway.

 

my stalker/shifter was more aggressive about shapeshifting in all situtations because i could still do things in shifted form, my shifted form was better (e.g. marked prey and stalker's link and hunter's claw), and it was safer (+1 AR especially).

Edited November 1, 2021 by thelee

[dgray62]

The great thing about shifter is that the druid has a fair amount of spells that disable and weaken foes over time, like Plague of Insects, Relentless Storm and Nature's Terror. It's worth casting one or two of these spells before shifting and diving into melee. A number of tough encounters become much easier if you soften up the enemies first in this manner.

[Boeroer]

11 hours ago, dgray62 said:

The great thing about shifter is that the druid has a fair amount of spells that disable and weaken foes over time, like Plague of Insects, Relentless Storm and Nature's Terror. It's worth casting one or two of these spells before shifting and diving into melee. A number of tough encounters become much easier if you soften up the enemies first in this manner.

I especially like this combo (some damage that applies over time, be it a DoT like Plague or some ticking stuff like Relentless Storm or both ;)) when going Barbarian/Shifter. Just because of Blood Thirst. At some point, while you are engaged in melee combat, some weaker enemies will start dying from the spells and then Blood Thirst kicks in and speeds up your slashing considerably which is a lot of fun imo.  

[dgray62]

Yes, the fury is a great combo here. So is shifter/trickster, since sickened from Plague, terrified from Nature's Terror and/or stunned from Storm set you up nicely for sneak attacks and (eventually) deathblows. Thematically, however, I really like the Corpse Eater/Shifter combo.

Edited November 2, 2021 by dgray62
Additional information

[StabbyMcGoodstab]

On 10/30/2021 at 3:43 AM, Boeroer said:

The Powel Level malus will apply to all rejuvenation spell which are still running once you shift back to kith form.

I just had a mild epiphany (sorry it took so long). This must work the other way around too, correct?

One of my issues with the Lifegiver is that I felt I had to spend the Spiritshift time on spellcasting, thus not being able to use it for combat. This means I can cast HoTs then shift to fight and still gain the +5 PL bonus on those HoTs, right? Will it retroactively extend the duration too?

How does the +5 PL affect Nature's Balm? Just extends the duration?

Does PL have any effect on Nature's Bounty? I'm assuming no since it just creates potions.

[Boeroer]

Unfortunately the duration will not change. It is determined at the time you cast the spell.

But the healing ticks will indeed rise in potency. This even happens if you change MIG while the spell is active by the way - or if you add any other effect that raises healing during the duration of the HoT spell. For example when a Mercy and Kindness chant kicks in while the HoT is active.

Robust's healing (10 base) does scale with PL and MIG etc. if I'm not mistaken. I'm not 100% sure if it will inherit/change with the PL of the Nature's Balm spell. Good question, would need to test this...

Nature's Bounty: I guess not - but tbh I didn't really use Nature's Bounty since I usually avoid using consumables.

 

 

 

Edited November 2, 2021 by Boeroer

[NotDumbEnough]

All Robust inspirations are base 10 healing per 3 sec. Scales with PL. My Lifegiver/Skald heals ~500 hp total per cast of The Moon's Light, and ~400 for Nature's Balm, under optimal conditions (transformed, int/might inspirations, singing Mercy and Kindness). Even without transforming it's around ~350 and ~300 respectively.

[thelee]

4 hours ago, StabbyMcGoodstab said:

Does PL have any effect on Nature's Bounty? I'm assuming no since it just creates potions.

yeah, nothing.

 

but the potions it creates benefit from alchemy.

[Boeroer]

In this case that "only" means longer duration. The effects (+action speed, +2 MIG and PER) do not scale.

Edit: that was partially wrong, it also does +20 health (base) which gets boosted by Alchemy. Thanks @thelee

Edited November 3, 2021 by Boeroer

[thelee]

3 hours ago, Boeroer said:

In this case that "only" means longer duration. The effects (+action speed, +2 MIG and PER) do not scale.

there's also a healing component that scales. it has a very low base (20 health), though it's not nothing.

edit: i said they scale with alchemy, but like any other potion they also benefit from bonus generic PL, just not the caster's (unless it's the caster drinking it)

Edited November 3, 2021 by thelee

[Boeroer]

2 hours ago, thelee said:

there's also a healing component that scales. it has a very low base (20 health), though it's not nothing.

Huh? Really? I haven't used it for ages and thought it only did said buffing. Good to know it also heals (that's better than I thought). 
 

[Boeroer]

Jut checked the wiki - which also doesn't mention the healing - then checked in the game and it is exactly as you said, @thelee. Maybe the healing was added with a patch, no idea. Anyway - updating the wiki now...  

https://pillarsofeternity.fandom.com/wiki/Nature's_Bounty_(Deadfire_item)

Edited November 3, 2021 by Boeroer